Does it improve the sound of a MM or MI cartridge by playing it through a phono stage?

I don't understand the question.  How do you play a MM or MI cart w/o a phono stage? 

All MM, MI, and MC require a phono stage.  Which type depends on the output of the cartridge.  There can be other considerations, such as loading, but gain is the main one.

It is necessary

Actually; your system’s line inputs might have enough gain, to allow for the playing of music, with some carts.               This, absolutely essential, factor is what you’d be lacking, without a phono stage: https://sessionville.com/articles/what-is-the-riaa-curve   Although: that doesn't seem to address what you were actually asking.      Just the post's title.

I am talking about the phono stage built into the Plinius. Would the Sutherland at 47K ohms sound any better than the Plinius' phono stage? Does it matter if it is a MC or MM/MI cartridge?

Not sure about your question...

You can use High Output MC cartridge with MM phono stage.

You can also use low impedance (very low output) MM/MI with MC phono stage or headamp or even SUT.

But you can’t use conventional MM/MI with MC phono stage because of too much gain. MM or MI can be 1.5 mV or even 9mV and MC phono stage is overkill.

Almost any MM cartridge can be loaded from 30k Ohm to 100k Ohm. Modern 47k Ohm input for MM is dogmatic, manufacturers in the 70’s/80s recommended 50-100k Ohm.

The best phono stage for MM is the one with optional loading (at least 50k Ohm and 100k Ohm). 

The Insight can be used with MC or MM. Give it a try and see if it sounds better than the Plinius. You have nothing to lose giving it a try!

"Does it matter if it is a MC or MM/MI cartridge?"

Yes it does matter a lot! The Phono pre amp is the gateway to great vinyl sound. And of course they all sound quite different. $1200 dollar solid state preamps are great and $2500 tube preamps are even better and so on. Its all relative to your system and budget. I would use the "somewhere between the cost of cartridge and turntable lies the sweet spot for a Phono pre amp". IMHO of course.


Matt M

I just thought that since the Plinius regular output setting is 47K (I would think), and it has a high output position as well that I used in the past for the Van den hul.  

"Regular" I thought would be like a phono option on a typical receiver (I know that word is blasphemous here) the other is a higher output, but not sure of the load.

Will the Sutherland's 47K ohm setting sound similar? I guess if/when the situation arises I can try both. I just don't like opening up these boxes and fiddling around. Both are internal - Plinius I believe is a dip switch and the Sutherland has things that have to be removed and reinserted.

Hi,
some in built phono sections in preamps and integrated amps of the 70's-80's-90's are quite nice and may outperform sonically some of todays stand alone phono stages.
The Acutex has a 3,5mv output so it should be connected to mm input, if you do to want to overload your amp.
But you have to listen yourself between the Sutherland and Plinius to decide which sounds better.
 

I’ve got several AcuTex carts. All this hoopla and hand-wringing about preamps, over a clone of an AT cart!

Really?? 

The Acutex carts are just unauthorized copies of run-of-the-Mill AT carts. Instead of V magnets, it has mumetal “Mickey Mouse” ears. It uses the identical cantilever suspension as used on AT carts. 

In fact, Audio Technica sued the parent Japanese maker of AcuTex carts, Azden, in 1985, over patent infringement.

The “3rd” pole of the AcuTex “Tri-Pole” design is nothing but a cheap gimmick. They do NOTHING! The cantilever is hard mounted; there is no axial movement!!

Cheaper just to buy an AT cart. They sound and perform the same!

Such a lame thread here. 

Sorry! But not sorry.

You may want to do some reading here. I think it will help you better formulate a question so others can understand what you are asking. Lots of great info on all things hi fi.

https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/d.mpl?audio/faq.html

Sorry Wolfie - I guess a better phono stage is a better phono stage, even if they are both ideally matched to a MM/MI cartridge and have a 47K ohm impedance.

Maybe it doesn't make as big a difference as with a MC cartridge, or maybe it is assumed people who buy MMs don't want to spend $$ for a phono stage.

If it sounds  good to you ,that's all that matters.But if your a person with cash to spend then buy a $2,500 phono stage.The only way you will know is to do a A/B tests.

Wolfie is misinformed.  The 400 series of Acutex cartridges are MM types and for all I know they do have some relationship to AT, which is nothing to be ashamed of, because AT made some of the great MMs.  But Acutex also made a totally unique and more expensive line of cartridges, the 300 series, that employ the induced magnet principle and were among some of the best cartridges out there in their day.  I rate the LPM320 among the top half dozen I have heard.


Soko, I think you are confusing the phono input impedance with phono gain.  Generally, cartridges are classified according to the way transduction of the signal in the grooves is achieved and according to gain.  MC cartridges have a tiny coil of wire attached to the cantilever, on the other end from the stylus.  The moving stylus makes the coil wiggle in between a pair of strong tiny magnets, which are stationary. this motion produces a signal voltage. The output of a cartridge is stated in millivolts (mV) for a standard stylus velocity, either 3.54 or 5.0 cm/sec.  MC cartridges can have "high output" (HOMC), up to about 1-2 mV or low output (LOMC), in the range from about 0.2mV to less than 0.6mV.  These latter require more gain in the phono stage and can be run with input resistances from 47K ohms on down to 100 ohms.  MM cartridges place the actual magnet at the far end of the cantilever, and it moves in relation to stationary coils of wire.  This gives much higher signal voltage output, like 3 to 6mV.  The beauty of MM cartridges is that you can use them with much less gain needed from the phono stage.  The phono stage has one other even more important job; it has to equalize the output of the cartridge. This is a very dense subject, but it is necessary because the voltage output of any MC or MM cartridge is proportional to stylus velocity, which means that bass frequencies are less amplified than treble frequencies by the transduction process taking place in the cartridge.  Phono stages employ a filter which reverses this phenomenon to produce a flat response at the output of the phono stage.  So, in no case can you use either an MM or an MC without this phono equalization.  As it turns out, 47K ohms was adopted as a standard input resistance for MM phono stages many decades ago, and it remains a standard. Why MMs need a relatively high input resistance is yet another arcane subject. With LOMC, like I said, 47K and on down to 100 ohms typically "work".  So, to summarize: Phono equalization is a must.  After that, choose a phono stage with gain sufficient to work well with your chosen cartridge.  An alternative to using a very high gain phono stage with a very low output MC cartridge is to use an MM stage with a Step-Up Transformer (SUT) between the tonearm wires and the input to the phono stage.  Search these archives and Vinyl Asylum for more background.

Thanks Lewm. I won't confused. You need to match the output of the cartridge with the resistance/impedence of the phono stage. I was thinking with a standard output MM cartridge, it wouldn't matter what phono stage you used as long as it operated or had a setting at 47K ohms. Gain of the phono stage is assumed to be adequate and not the issue (I don't think).

I don't think that is the case anymore - phone stages matter - even at the same specs..

Soko, Please re-read my post.  I am afraid you missed the main points.
"You need to match the output of the cartridge with the resistance/impedence [sic] of the phono stage." 

No, you need to match the output of the cartridge with the gain of the phono stage.  The input impedance is also important but only tangentially related to voltage output, in that very low output cartridges tend to be MC types which tend to have very low intenal resistance and can therefore be used with any input impedance, so long as the input impedance is at least 10X the internal resistance of the cartridge.  (Now I opened up another can of worms, not mentioned above. Read the thread about MC cartridges where Elliot is the OP.)  So, it is more correct to say you need to match the internal resistance of the cartridge with the input resistance/impedance of the phono stage.  Gain of the phono stage can never be "assumed to be adequate"; you need to know the value in db in order to decide whether a particular phono stage will work well with your particular cartridge.  For example, a stage designed for MM cartridges (producing about 5mV output) will typically add about 40db of gain in the process of equalizing the signal from the cartridge.  Such a stage would be wholly inadequate for use with an LOMC cartridge producing 0.2 to 0.5mV output.

Then why does a cartridge have a recommended load impedence from a phono stage and so many phono stages have adjustments for that? And why don't I hear about cartridge internal resistance? 

I thought gain was more of a preference as to how loud and possibly distorted you want the signal to the preamp to be so you don't have to turn up the volume as much.

Didn't see a post from Elliott on this discussion.

Look for "elliottbnewcombjr"For example, the thread titled "What SUT?...."
You asked, "why does a cartridge have a recommended load impedence from a phono stage and so many phono stages have adjustments for that?"  Because each manufacturer wants his cartridge to perform at its best.  So he selects a range of phono input resistances that ought to work well with his cartridge and publishes that information.  The rule of thumb is that the input resistance of the phono stage should be not less than 10X the internal resistance of the cartridge (which is another published specification that you should be able to find easily).  Most manufacturers do not stipulate one value; they usually will stipulate a minimum value which allows for higher values of input resistance to be used.  The 10-fold rule is not cast in stone.  You can get away with lesser ratios, but usually you don't want to go far below 10.  The reason for this is that as the input resistance of the phono stage approaches the output resistance of the cartridge, more and more energy in the form of signal voltage is lost to ground.  Also, the high frequency response starts to roll off.  This whole issue mostly pertains to MC cartridges which are often run at phono input resistances much less than 47K ohms.  For MM cartridges, you can forget about it and use the standard 47K ohms, to be found in nearly all MM phono stages.

You may want to do some reading here. I think it will help you better formulate a question so others can understand what you are asking. Lots of great info on all things hi fi.

https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/d.mpl?audio/faq.html

Guys - JPerry, three_easy_payments, pryso:

I'm not sure why the OP's question was so puzzling. He's using the built-in phono stage in his Plinius Integrated and wants to know if he can get better sound with an external phone stage.

I've no experience with the Plinius or the VDH cartridge, but I'd say (1) yes, external phono stages will usually sound better than the built-in ones (2) Generally - though not always -- MC is said to sound better than MM.

The Sutherland should sound great -- haven't you tried it?

G

You can easily find and buy a better phono stage for MM or MC cartridges and the price will tell you nothing.

Everything is easy with MM or MI cartridges, they are fine with almost any phono stage (technically) designed to accommodate an MM cartridge giving 47k Ohm load for them. But you can improve the sound of MM using 100k Ohm instead of 47k Ohm. Manufacturers of MM phono cartridges in the 70s/80s recommended 47k Ohm - 100k Ohm range of loading for MM. People ignoring it and using 47k Ohm now, but there is a big improvement with 100k Ohm for MM and everyone should try it!

So the best MM phono stage is the one wirh RCA plug load restistors to change loading for MM cartridges (not only for MC).

Of course users with soldering skills could simply change internal 47k for 100k (and back) to try. Load resistors inside expensive phono stages are not always the best quality. Some of the best for audio is Vishay Naked Foil resistor from Texas Components. I have replaced stock 47k Ohm resistors with 100k Ohm Vishay and never looked back, huge improvement almost for any MM/MI phono stage i have tried.

Chakster, What you say may be true for you and me, but the OP is in need of some basic understanding before getting into the nuances of a 100K ohm load vs a 47K ohm load for MM cartridges.  Right now he is fine with 47K as standard.  And I must disagree with your statement that external loading plugs are very useful for MM cartridges.  First of all because external loading plugs which in effect parallel a second resistance with whatever is the input resistance of the stage, can only lower the net resistance seen by the cartridge.  Thus, you cannot achieve 100K ohms or any value higher than 47K ohms by paralleling any value of second resistor with the standard 47K ohm load.  True, there are some who like to REDUCE the load resistance below 47K for some very particular cartridges, and this can be done by paralleling, but that is advanced thinking not needed here.  In my opinion, the capacity to add an external load resistor in parallel with the primary resistance is by far more relevant to MC phono stages than MM ones.

The settings on the phono stage are 100 ohms, 200, 1000, 10000, 47000. Not 100K. For my back up MC cartridge, if I do use it, I will select the 47K ohm setting for impedence and 50dB gain on my phono stage..

@sokogear : The Plinius impedance is set/default at 47k and you can't change it. What you can change is the Plinius phono gain.
Due that you used the VDH cartridge then that Plinius si already setted at high gain ( 0.7mv. ) that is to high for the Acutex 3.5mv output and could overload the Plinius and if this happens you will have higher distortions. 
So, if you want to use the Plinius you need to set up its gain to 1.5 low gain.

"  Would the Sutherland at 47K ohms sound any better than the Plinius' phono stage? Does it matter if it is a MC or MM/MI cartridge? "

No one but you can answer the first question after test it both units with the Acutex cartridge.
 Not only Plinius and Sutherland are different electronic designs but to use the Sutherland you need too additional IC cables that means not only additional cables/wires where the cartridge must travel and where exist some kind of degradation but exist additional input/output RCA connectors and solder joints that make degradation to the signal too.

To the second question: its matters only for the gain and loading need it for either kind of cartridge.


""   Will the Sutherland's 47K ohm setting sound similar?  ""

No, both units are different electronics designs and with different builded active/passive parts and even circuit boards material.


"""  I was thinking with a standard output MM cartridge, it wouldn't matter what phono stage you used as long as it operated or had a setting at 47K ohms. """

It would matters. Again different electronic designs tend to sounds different. Your way of thinking makes no sense at all.

Btw, your 412 is an induced magnet design not a MM one.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Chakster, What you say may be true for you and me, but the OP is in need of some basic understanding before getting into the nuances of a 100K ohm load vs a 47K ohm load for MM cartridges. Right now he is fine with 47K as standard. And I must disagree with your statement that external loading plugs are very useful for MM cartridges. First of all because external loading plugs which in effect parallel a second resistance with whatever is the input resistance of the stage, can only lower the net resistance seen by the cartridge. Thus, you cannot achieve 100K ohms or any value higher than 47K ohms by paralleling any value of second resistor with the standard 47K ohm load. True, there are some who like to REDUCE the load resistance below 47K for some very particular cartridges, and this can be done by paralleling, but that is advanced thinking not needed here. In my opinion, the capacity to add an external load resistor in parallel with the primary resistance is by far more relevant to MC phono stages than MM ones

.
Right, that's why internal input resistors in my JLTi phono stage are 500k Ohm (special mod i asked for), so i can use parallel 100k RCA plug for my MM.  

I think the Sutherland will sound better either way because it sounded WAY better with the Van den hul. I would have to switch it to low gain, but if I do this I would probably just use the Sutherland with the 47K load and 45dB gain.

In all likelihood, I will live without any fiddling around with the cartridge as VPI is saying they can turn around the cartridge service with VDH in 2 weeks including shipping, which I find extraordinary, but if it is specifically scheduled, I guess it is possible.

VPI is saying they can turn around the cartridge service with VDH in 2 weeks including shipping, which I find extraordinary

How they can ship to Netherlands back and forth withing 2 weeks in covid-19 situation when 90% of the flights canceled ? Do they really understand what they’re talking about? Mr. Van del Hul sitting there and waiting this particular cartridge to fix it for you in 24hrs or what ? Just curious. I think it’s impossible!

Even if you will ship your cartridge to SoundSmith the turn around time will be a month or so! And it's within USA.

presumably you are asking "sparate dedicated box vs built in RIAA & amplifier".
And (drum roll please) it depends on which one is better designed and executed. I happen to be working on one right now. The circuit, PCB etc will be identical whether in its own box or plugged into a motherboard. Same card. What will differ is:

• isolation (nothing like having its own box around it
• Power supply (more money can be spent due to expectations and price point)
• packaging
• price
  

Its like the integrated amp vs pre and power amp. In theory the integrated is better. In practice they are bought for the convenience, package and value, so they rarely aspire to the highest of high end.

You might infer that I’m working on one of those too. :-) In the end as noted, and i think you know this, every cartridge needs an extra 30-65 dB of gain ( and that’s a LOT) and the inverse equalization to what is done during mastering so that it is flat and accurate. No RIAA EQ, no bass. Pretty simple.
G

Dear Raul, While I yield to your generally superior experience to mine, I must say that all the information at my disposal would indicate that the 300 series of Acutex cartridges were induced magnet types.  However, the 400 series are conventional MMs.  I do see that on the Bluz Bros website, they say that BOTH series are MM, which we both know for sure is incorrect with respect to the 300 series, which makes me all the more ready to disregard anything they have to say on Acutex, especially since they have none to sell.  On the other hand, I will grant you that the 400 series LOOK a lot like the 300 series in terms of shape, which would fit the idea that the 400s are also IM types.  However, I also found this quote from a website much like this one, and surely not the last word any more than this one is the last word.  Nevertheless, "while the 420 (full name 420 STR) is a very good cartridge, it's not in the same league as the 320 (full name M320III STR). The STR refers to the "Special Tri-Radial" stylus tip, a line contact type developed by Toshiba, so the 320 and 420 have that in common but that's about it.The 420STR and M320III STR were the top of the line in their respective series but the 300 Series had things going for it that were dispensed with when the 400 Series came along. Whereas the 300 Series were an induced magnet design, the 400 Series were of the more typical moving magnet type. They also abandoned the tri-pole design which is where the magic is in these cartridges and also in the boxy "Brick" types. The stereo chain responsible for the Acutex brand of cartridges, speakers and headphones (interestingly, all transducers) was Atlantis Sound in Falls Church, VA in suburban DC."

All cartridges, MM, MI or MC require a phono stage.  The MC phono stage always needs more gain than the others hence makes it much more critical (and expensive).
You can get a VERY decent combination with the following:

MM cartridges: 2M Black, Nagaoka MP 300/500, Goldring 2500 etc. (about $500)
phono stage: Schiit Mani (about $120)
or going all out:
Avid Pulsare II (about $7000)

Dear @wolfie62 :  ""  The Acutex carts are just unauthorized copies of run-of-the-Mill AT carts. Instead of V magnets, it has mumetal “Mickey Mouse” ears. It uses the identical cantilever suspension as used on AT carts .""

"  Cheaper just to buy an AT cart. They sound and perform the same ."


Perhaps what you posted could be that way and at the end I don't care to much about because the quality level performance of AT vintage cartridges ( I own or owned all top models as the Acutex models too. ) against Acutex is certainly different and certainly does not sounds the same as you stateted. No way my friend.

Next and " old " Acutex cartridge review compared against top vintage cartridges including top AT:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-acutex-lpm-315-iii-str-cartridge

Anyway, if for you sounds the same fine with me.

R.

Sutherland has several in the lowish price points - $900, $1400, and $2200 (and several higher end up to I think $15K). All are considered great values compared to the competition and the $1400 and $2200 ones have reasonable priced options for a linear power supply. The $1400 insight can have a board swapped internally (and the power bridge) for only $350 - typically done when configured/built, but can be upgraded after the fact as I did after buying a used one (did it myself with the help of Ron Sutherland himself), and the 20/20 has an optional external LPS for $450. It is probably $100 more because of the extra box.

Most of all, Ron Sutherland is a great guy, willing to do anything to make his customers happy. Very down to earth and generous with his time. He spent time on the phone with me before, during and after the purchase (probably well over an hour in total, plus a few emails) for a $350 sale! -which was shocking and refreshing. I believe he is the only PS designer in the market with any kind of market share that is talked about by high end dealers. I heard in the past he has designed high end amps that are still sought after. He also was one of the founders of Martin Logan. He probably just does it for the fun of it now....

Dear @lewm  :  I have on hand the different Acutex models operation manuals that you can read from these links and where you can see the 400 series is not MM design ( normally top MM designs manufacturer specs states the cartridge loading capacitance..... Been an IM design Acutex cartridges are way less sensible to capacitance change values and that's why they just does not states about. ):


https://www.vinylengine.com/library/acutex/m412.shtml

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/acutex/m315.shtml


Btw, about the 100k loading I will post on it in the thread where for the very first time in this forum we brought that cartridge loading figure many years ago. Seems to me that could exist a " little " misunderstood on that important issue:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/who-needs-a-mm-cartridge-type-when-we-have-mc


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.