Probably the best answer is that hi-fi should be used to get closer to the music. Good sound serves good music, but you shouldn't need good sound to enjoy good music.
The problem with dudus audiophilus is that if "some" is good, then "more" must be better. And off you go, on the quest for that final percent. I will never forget taking a friend to the Chicago Symphony Orchestra (main floor, center section, back third .... killer sound), and he said "That's not the sound I want!"
So after I finished laughing, I said "But that IS the sound!" We talked some more, and he asked me how I could be so happy with my system and never change anything, and I said "Because I have the music, and it sounds really good."
People drive themselves crazy trying to get a system that sounds like a live musical event, which is impossible. You think it's happened, then you go hear live music and say, "Uh, oh ...." There's a reason we go to concerts, right?
Reproduced sound is like looking at a photograph, in that it arouses memories of the actual event. You can get those memories whether you're listening to a song that you've downloaded to your smart phone, or via a home audio rig that costs as much as a luxury car. Who hasn't driven around the block to finish off a favorite song in the car?
For me, the music is the point, whatever form it takes. Once, I played my much-loved LP copy of Husker Du's "Land Speed Record" live set for some audiophiles, and you should have heard the howls. But a high end system helps you get closer to the claustrophobic, over-the-top mood present that night in 7th Street Entry. The tunes are the thing. |
Even the biggest audio moron will write he loves music..what do you expect?
I know a lot who have absolutely no idea but they love to spend money on audio gear. That's all. I listened to so many horrible systems, I can't count them anymore. And when I say that to the owner, he hates me for that as long as I live. Love for music? What a joke. Music CAN be pain on certain Systems.
Sometimes it can be a trip into a Performance, but only sometimes.. |
Rok2id. Maybe those people who only own 5 albums really treasure the sound of those and want the very best reproduction system to hear them on. Some have deep pockets and can afford the gear. Many deep pockets also spend a lot of time working and traveling and do not have the time to listen to music as maybe you or I do. I have seen many ads for top tier equipment with the reason for selling is a lack of time to listen.
You seem to think their equipment is for show. If it is, why worry about it? If that's what they get off on, so what? But I'm not sure there is much to show in a $100k system today, when most people are thrilled to have an IPod. I think $100k would buy something more cool or hip than a stereo system.
A Corvette ZR1 would probably get much more attention without all the questions that a $100k stereo would get. Most people would think it utterly silly to spend that much money on a music system when there are IPods for much less. But everyone understands the ZR 1 and won't question the sanity of someone who spends the $$$ on it
Just a thought |
Artemus_5:
I agree with all your points. I don't think the vast majority of people buy high-end for show. I appreciate well made beautiful things also. If money was no object would I have the system I have now? NO WAY! My point of contention with high-end audiophiles, is that they seem to think that ANYTHING that can be identified, can be HEARD by humans. Also that high-grade components will always be HEARD. I just beg to disagree.
I realize they also say measuements have nothing to do with how a piece sounds. |
I like both, and for me the hobby is about both. One could ask "On which do you spend more money?" My guess is that most of us spend more on one than on the other. And only a few of us spend about the same on each.
I find it interesting that most contributers to this thread don't have "system" links. Nor do they describe their music preferences. |
Peterayer makes a fun point: "I find it interesting that most contributers to this thread don't have "system" links. Nor do they describe their music preferences."
I had the same system for 20+ years, and only changed it just now in the name of visual appeal. Should probably update that. As far as music preferences, I'm a true omnivore (audiovore?), so I'm not really categorizable that way, either. Everything is too simplistic, right?
I once did a "random" play on my portable, and listed the first 30 songs that came up. People thought I was kidding! It was everything from Haydn's "Nelson" mass to Faiz Ali Faiz (amazing qawwal, next Nusrat Ali Khan), the Minutemen, Olivia Newton-John, Melt-Banana, Sinatra, Wu-Tang, Peter Brotzmann etc, etc.
Great music is great music, and I try not to limit myself, like lots of folks, I imagine. |
I tried to list my system in vitrual systems once, but could not get it to work. Besides everyone knows what polk speakers look like. And my Marantz PM 7200 is no beauty either. Just non-descript lo-fi stuff. The most expensive. my speakers and sacd player, but both laughable low cost by the standards of this site. It is possible that I have the cheapest system on audiogon.
My primary musical preferences:
I like classical, Some Italian Opera, Bop / hard bop Jazz, 60's - 80's pop and blues (delta blues)Some bluegrass and some gospel. Today I received CDs from Amazon: Ray Charles, Oscar Peterson, Bach -Julia Fischer, Vivaldi-Fabio Biondi. and McCoy Tyner.
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I find it interesting that most contributers to this thread don't have "system" links. Nor do they describe their music preferences. My musical preferences are also all over the board. Somewhat eclectic in some sense. Not much pop or rock or rap or country. Heavy leanings towards folk, alt-folk, alt, world, early music, and female vocals. Not sure what difference it makes in the context of the thread though. Current library is around 1800 albums I guess. What are you suggesting in asking that? What connection are you suggesting about specific musical tastes? My system? You can see my system right here. It's highly modified from stock though. |
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I love listening to music on my hi-fi. There......that was easy! Happy Listening, Happy Hanukkah, Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year. |
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Rok2id. When I first came aboard, I had a 20 yr old system consisting of a HK 730 receiver, Magnavox CDB 650 cdp, Infinity RS 5000 speakers and a Dual 1237 TT. A decent system in its day, but not audiophile quality for the time. I don't have deep pockets. I didn't really know a lot about the newer equipment. But I had a love affair with music.
There were a lot of good people on this site who were a great help to me. Their systems dwarfed mine. And little doubt that some had pockets deeper than I would ever have. But guess what. I never ever felt like they looked down on me. I still remember Joe Trelja telling me that it was about the music and not about how much $$$ one can spend. I believe Joe had a very nice system at the time. I have since replaced the 20 yr old system with some pretty good stuff. But in the scheme of things it is still a somewhat modest system in comparison to the very top shelf equipment available
It is unfortunate that there seems to be a backlash against top shelf equipment and those who can afford it in todays music circles. I just had a similar conversation over on Vinyl Asylum. People who helped me gently nudged me towards good quality gear that I could afford. There was a sense and desire to excell. To better one's system if possible and affordable. Because of that I have a pretty darn good sounding system. But I don't see that desire to excell and have better today.
Just today, a person came on Vinyl Asylum and asked for suggestions for a $1k turntable and cartridge. The table that was suggested to him is available on Ebay for $29,95. The cartridge can be had for $100. Now there is nothing wrong with a TT which costs $129,00 if that is the best you can do. But by this time the bearing in that TT is shot and the motor and electronics are weak and on their last leg. We all started somewhere. But staying on the starting line when one can do better makes me wonder if one is really interested in the music. And someone suggesting a 30 yr old TT which was never really that good when it was new has done the person asking for recomendations a disservice, especially when that person had the budget to get a pretty decent start. But this seems to be the state of music reproduction today. Cheap seems to be the goal rather than high fidelity. In any hobby which you get into, you will quickly learn that it usually costs more than you thought, especially for the good parts and pieces. HiFi is no different. Because it is expensive doesn't necessarily mean it is better. But the odds are pretty high that the more expensive is better.
Considering some of the posts I wonder if this is not just a backlash against the high dollar equipment and the people who are fortunate enough to own it. Be careful not to shoot yourself in the foot. Nice expensive gear is listed for sale every day on Agon by those who are moving up the ladder and maybe even chasing gear. They sell their nice gear at a fraction of the cost to people like you and I who's pockets may not be as deep. And because of that I can afford equipment that I otherwise may not be able to afford
You may be surprised at how friendly and helpful some of these people are if you just give them a chance. And you may be surprised at the system you can put together for a reasonable cost. Notice, I didn't say cheap. Any hobby usually costs to play. And cheap equipment, whether it be guns, golf clubs, tennis rackets race cars or stereos will usually give you much poorer results than the more expensive and better engineered equipment.
Peace and Merry Christmas |
Artemus_5: Thanks for such a lengthy and insightful post. I have owned several dual turntables. Model number 1229Q comes to mind. This was back in 1968 in Germany. My first system consisted on a Sansui 150A receiver (15wpc), German PE turntable and a pair of wharfedale bookshelf speakers.
I gave a friend $450 dollars and asked him to purchase me a 'stereo system' at the audio club in Wiesbaden. And that is what he brought back. I was in heaven. What a light show the Sansui put on in dim light. My friend was an audiophile. He bought himself a tonearm for $90, and I thought he was nuts, esp since he didn't even own a turntable. So we both come from humble audio orgins. :)
I am not part of any backlash against high end or the people who own it. Normally the people at the cutting edge of any hobby benefit the entire group. They pay for the innovations. However, the extent to which this is true in audio is open to debate. There does not seem to be any 'trickle down' in audio. Marantz, Parasound, Polk and NAD are the well known exceptions. They seem to cover all price points. Actually the thing that most impresses me concerning the deep pockets crowd, are the rooms in which a lot of these systems are located. I think the rooms add much more to the sound than all the high end electronics. As I mentioned before, using components or manufacturing techniques that add to the cost, does not necessarily add to the SOUND.
As far as the used gear listed here. It is often very old. MY oldest item is 8 years old. A lot of the high end stuff for sale is as much as 20 or more years old. Is a 20 year old high end amp 'better' than a new Harman Kardon amp? I am thinking of the HK 990. And if the item has moving parts?
I sit here now with money buring a hole in my pocket and I can't think of a thing that would improve my sound, save a new room. So I buy good music instead.
Finally, before I bore you to death, ALL THINGS are not relative to the final product(sound) nor does EVERYTHING impact that sound. I am going to Austin after the first of the year to a high end store and listen to a system. They always have maggies set up. I will report.
Merry Christmas |
I'd rather listen to miles, Beethoven or Coltrane on a boom box than most of today's crappy billboard top 40 music on a $10,000 reference system. But why not have the best of both worlds? |
Most people get into Hi-Fi because they love music and they want to hear it reproduced as well as possible. I don't understand why anyone would do it for any other reason. If someone has another reason they do this please enlighten me.
Can someone love music and not care to hear it at its best? Of course. Can someone dislike music but want to hear it at its best? Maybe but would you listen to that music on a regular basis because the sonics are good? I know I would not.
Sean |
"I sit here now with money buring a hole in my pocket and I can't think of a thing that would improve my sound, save a new room. So I buy good music instead."
I agree with you most of what you say but would only add "what would improve my sound MOST". Why do so many feel that more expensive components will somehow compensate for a room that will not support or justify the added expenditure beyond a given point? So much for being an audiophile, different strokes I suppose. I would be curious to know how many audiophiles realize this to the point that they would make that expenditure of a new room, if feasible, over purchase of "better" components, diminishing returns. At what point in the journey does this become a factual realization?
Of course the above is a bit off topic but the subject of loving music or hi-fi encompasses so many different elements for the varied listeners on this forum and the rest of the audiophile community that one can only say, "You know who you are", what difference does it make, really? Live, love, learn and yearn, it's what we do. |
Tubegroover:
Stated in your usual succinct manner. I think I will do that room this coming year. The wife is all for it.
Merry Christmas |
$10000 would not get you a reference system, not even close. $100000 would, maybe. I agree with the rest of your statement though. |
Or a person could follow the lead of the Oracles and just declare their system a 'Reference' system.
BTW, for those of you who think you have heard Vivaldi's 'The Four Seasons', give this a listen:
Vivaldi
The Four Seasons
Fabio Biondi - violin
Europa Galante |
Tubegroover,
I agree some people overlook the rooms contribution but it is not feasable to move to a better room or improve the room in some cases. It is possible to improve a sub optimal rooms sound by changing your gear to suit the room. That does not necessarily mean they need more expensive gear just more appropriate gear for their room.
Unfortunately it is hard to tell what gear is right without some trial and error. But it is possible to get great sound in a lesser room if you choose well. Will it be as good as a good system in a good room? No, but some people do not have that option.
Sean |
I love HiFi. There. I said it. I also love music, but not enough to listen to much of it when I don't have a good HiFi. |
I listen to music at home and to talk radio in the car. I guess the HiFi has something to do with it. Music is just not as engrossing in the car. |
I think I love hifi because it gets me closer to the music/musicians. That feeling, on some level, of realism - the presence of the musicians etc. I find this connection even more special when listening to musicians who are no longer with us.
Of course it would be nothing without the music itself, but the little cues to realism/presence are what make hifi listening fundamentally different to hearing a tune on the radio.
Getting closer to this palpable presence can become a bit addictive...but if its driven by the enjoyment of music, I can't see anything wrong with that.
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Merry Christmas to you too Rok2id.
Hi Sean
As far as the room goes, many will work depending on the type of music. I personally feel the room comes more into play with larger scale music which generally require larger rooms and appropriately larger more costly speakers, at least in my experience. Many speakers require room and space with careful placement to realize their potential, the more transparent and open the sound the more this comes into play. A dedicated large room offers greater options for placement which can be quite critical in optimizing the system and justifying the cost, most rooms give in to compromise and this is the real point. Certainly many speakers are designed with smaller rooms in mind and those that are highly efficient can work well with low powered amplifiers that need not be expensive to give excellent, realistic sound but generally they don't fare well with large scale music as far as I'm concerned. It is the reason i have been with the same speakers for the past 10 years, feeling any meaningful improvement will only come by a different room and being otherwise quite satisfied by their presentation across the board in my space. Yes, the sound might be improved somewhat by better electronics but at this point, in my case having tried many, the diminishing returns aren't worth the expenditure. At some point you hit a wall unless you have broader options. What drew me into this hobby in the first place is the joy of listening to large scale acoustical music with a natural presentation. It is a progressive road because the divide between the real thing and reproduced is quite wide.
I expect that there are more than a few serious music lovers/audiophiles that are into this large scale orchestral music to warrant the expenditure for a room. For a good midrange presentation in a smaller space and the intimate lifelike sound that many like, it can be done relatively inexpensively but a realistic, dynamic presentation of large scale is always going to be compromised in a small space due to too many limitations. |
The better the hifi the better the music sounds. Better does not mean ultra high dollar gear. Better IMO means sound thats easy to listen to for hours on end. Sound that gets your feet taping sound that can give you the chills. Sound that puts a smile on my face. My quest for that has meant a lot of trial and error with gear.
My love for the sound of music has been a part of my life for decades. I dont skip many days in front of my system listening to lp after lp. Theres just about no better joy in life than to be able to sub live music with gear delivered music that satisfies the ears.
Vinyl my listening source of choice is elusive at times so i do enjoy the hands on part of vinyl playback which is another question that could be added.
Merry Christmas to you all. |
Tubegroove,
I agree that if you're into large scale music a large room is the way to go. I also agree that it is worth the investment. I'm just saying that if it's not in your budget or there is no possiblity for expansion it's not the end of the world.
As for knowing when to stop upgrading and just enjoy the music that will be different for everyone. I personally am quite happy with my system and have had my current speakers for almost 4 years. I have no desire to change anything downstream of my turntable. I also don't really need to change anything in my vinyl setup but I am not done exploring what is possible with analog.
Sean |
12-23-11: Kevvwill: "I once did a "random" play on my portable, and listed the first 30 songs that came up. People thought I was kidding! It was everything from Haydn's "Nelson" mass to Faiz Ali Faiz (amazing qawwal, next Nusrat Ali Khan), the Minutemen, Olivia Newton-John, Melt-Banana, Sinatra, Wu-Tang, Peter Brotzmann etc, etc." I love your musical choices, particularly Melt Banana and Peter Brotzmann. Was it "Machine Gun"? Yes, you can have both, music and hi-fi... and fun! :) _______ |
I can completely enjoy good music when it plays on my a.m. radio in the car....it really doesn't matter to me because good music touches parts of my brain no matter how it is presented, including even some old classic journey tunes...
I also like hi-fi because it can really make things sound special, but it's really second place and only serves to deliver the musical message.
byron |
Hiho, actually it was the title track from "F*** de Boere," a long out-of-print disc that also contains an early version of the great "Machine Gun." I make a point of seeing Brotzmann every time he comes to Chicago which is, thankfully, very often thanks to his fondness for collaborating with the local players, such as Ken Vandermark, Hamid Drake, etc. |
IMHO, you can't be a HiFi fan without first being a music fan. The HiFi is just a conduit to get closer to the music that you love. |
I now realize that I should have titled this thread "Do you have good taste in hi-fi but bad taste in music?" because I was trying to make two or three points when I started writing it. I was annoyed by the number of unworthy music titles being re-issued on high grade vinyl and SACD. Of course I know "unworthy" is highly subjective but I believe that in general I have very good taste in music and am worthy to make judgement calls like this. Others may disagree. |
I agree with you. On a similar topic, why can't all new releases be SACD hybrid disc. Esp classical. Is the process much more difficult or expensive? |
My main problem is that there is very little new Jazz and especially classical music being released on vinyl (don't have an SACD player)
While I can't really say what is good or bad taste (I like a LOT of different music), it would be nice if the pressing companies started releasing quality albums of NEW classical, and NEW jazz recordings. Yes, there are a few I suppose, if your taste runs more to the mainstream, but not that much. Even if it was released for sale on places like HDTracks, it would be a bonus. But my days of buying CDs are over :)
B |
When you take an already small market (esoteric music buyers) and multiply that small number by the percentage of those esoteric music buyers that are audiophiles, you're left with what, 50 units that will get sold? That's not marketable, even in today's digital-marketing world. |
It seems as if most Classical SACD are from smaller labels and lesser known orchestras. Don't know if that is 100% true, but it seems that way. There are a few exceptions. |
It's you. My midfi system turned me onto a lot of music I didn't really notice. |
" Do You Love Music or Do You Love Hi-Fi?"
Yes!! |
I think that most of us, prior to getting into hi-fi, are obviously mostly concerned only with music, because we haven't experienced hi-fi. Love of music is the prerequisite for entering the world of hi-fi, but I think for many of us, the hi-fi aspect eventually takes hold too firmly, and we quickly forget why we got into the hobby in the first place. |
Here's a test: how many A'gon members subscribe to either Stereophile or The Absolute Sound, which are primarily about equipment, versus how many subscribe to Gramophone or another publication which is primarily about music recordings? |
"Good music can't be delivered without good system..."
I cannot be in agreement with this statement. Good - and great - music stays good and great no matter how you hear it.
In the car, on cheap earbuds, through shopping center el-cheapo speakers, and of course, at home on our "expensive" systems.
Good music is about ENJOYMENT. Great gear can of course help, but it is not essential to the enjoyment of music - unless you love gear more than music - (here we go again!)
I once heard Brown Eyed Girl on Bourbon Street played through crappy speakers full blast in a bar. Man, the energy and the FEELING was incredible. Good music will be crappy sound most times over bad music and terrific sound - at least for me. Your pick, Satchmo over an old Marantz with PSB speakers or Lawrence Welk over a Boulder-Wilson 100k system? (no offence about the music). |
