Ensemble PV-1 Silver.
Do you know of small speakers that sound ''BIG'' ?
I was wondering if anyone has heard of small or monitor speakers that defy perception by sounding larger or bigger than they are ? I have always owned floorstanders and do not have much experience with the smaller fry....for the sake of discussion I would like that we NOT include small floorstanders - just speakers that we would normally use a stand with. Thanks !
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Ozzy62, Sorry about your email, but it must be lost; Roark Douglas builds the IZT4's which are outstanding for under $1000/pr. They were designed for multichannel music applications and like a subwoofer added for best performance. Their main purpose is to offer music lovers with multichannel systems an affordable reference level speaker that simply elevates an ordinary surround system into a superior music system, like yours. Let me fill in some blanks. The speakers weigh 19lbs each They are 12x7.5x10 (HWD)with 1.5" thich front baffle and internal bracing. They handle 80 watts continuous 175 peak, they are 6ohm +/- .8 ohms They have an Aluminum 5" woofer 2.25" soft dome mid and 1" neo tweeter. you will note the impulse response shows the kind of time alignment that Vandersteen and Theil call phase coherent and after 300 hz the acoustic phase is +/- 20 degrees to 16khz. you will note the very flat frequency response (the lines demarque 3dB not 10dB variances like in the reviews) and the fast, clean and uniform spectral decay, which I know may mean little to you, but for a sub $1000 speaker what you see some may call exceptional. Distortion at 90dB 1m is >.25% 100hz to 16khz. The speaker is a sealed box which is tuned to 87 hz fb. Would I say it plays bigger than life?, not really. not by itself. But for the money there are few speakers that offer this sound quality in the range that these speakers cover and when set up in surround with a subwoofer, the system as seen in my profile has outperformed 2 channel systems from ACI, ZU,DALI Helicon, ATC Concept 1, Sptech Ref. Proac Response and Tablette, totem Forests, Vandersteen 2's & 3 sigs. and the VSR 4jr's. BTW the 2nd group of speaker systems listed are not in my opinion, they are in the opinion of owners and potential customers of those brands. If you doubt that its true you'll have to take it up with them. PS: If you ask me nicely, I will gladly build a 5-7.2 system for you. Roark Douglas is a consulting firm, the IZT4's is for us too show potential clients that we are capable of complete design solutions. We offer oem amplifier solutions, system sales and design assistance to end users, technical training and marketing strategy solutions. Building speakers is for fun. |
Sonus Faber Guarneri Hommage.. I just put a pair in my system and they are magic! Little lacking on bottom end, but what you do get is accurate and defined. By far the best speaker I have heard in my system..replaced Hales Signature 2's ( which were not slouches). IMHO, one of the best if not the best small monitor in the world. |
Ok...Ozz, now that you've accomplished the instruction part, lets start adding 2+2 to get 4. " No Specs" In case you missed it, there are graphs on the flyer! From top left working counterclockwise, we have the "wave flow" graph (another version of the frequency response graph), the impedence graph (self explanitory...I hope), and another, more typically seen frequency response graph. No, things aren't spelled out to what you may be accustomed to, but they are nevertheless specs. You do know how to read these specs, right Ozz? "No dimensions, no weight, no driver details, no design details" Ozz...I think you got me on this one, but it was done this way for many purposes. Heres one that comes to mind...so people, probably like yourself, won't attempt to clone it. Even if you had all those things, theres a high probability you won't get it right. But the obvious does come to mind...its a flyer not an autobiography. "not even information on how to buy the damn things even if I wanted to" Once again Ozz, you didn't read. See the part at the bottom that says "Buy you ITZ-4 factory direct on Ebay or visit our website." In case it didn't don upon you, you were on the site when you found the flyer. Since you didn't read that, you probably didn't read the other tab from the home page that said "contact us". This point is where we, again, put 2 and 2 together. Wanna ITZ-4, contact the site and ask for one! The site may not be complete, hence the "under construction" posted throughout (another 2+2 moment...quick thinking cap Ozz). However, contrary to what you think, everything you need is there. And of course, have a question...contact us tab. :0 Since you've aqquired such interest and intrigue, check periodically to see if the site is up to "prime time" status...and keep us posted, will you? OK...I make it any simpler, I'm gonna have to take away your tube owners license. ;) |
When I click on the picture, this is what I get...... http://www.roarkdouglas.com/images/IZT4v2.bmp No specs, no dimensions, no weight, no driver details, no design details..........not even information on how to buy the damn things even if I wanted to...... Yep, like I said. Not ready for prime time. Oz Oz |
Oz....did you click on the picture before you exited out? Guess not! Click on the pic under the loudspeaker tab and the printable information will come up. Theres a little more information you forgot to investigation before counting them out! But hey, Jordan didn't make the varsity team his 1st time out either. ;) If its still too complicated, check out the system for D_Edwards on the gon. The graphs and pics are also on there. "Well that tells me exactly "zero" about these speakers" "Looks like they are not ready for prime time just yet" You must be the type to throw the instruction away before you start the project. Look a little closer. Its all there! |
What if I told you you could get a compact 3-way bookshelf that will blow you mind to Jello, and it'll wont even cost you half of the price your looking at for other speakers. And we're talking new out the box, +/- 1.5 db for under 1K per pair. Check it out. cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/s/f/114... cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/s/f/114... I've auditioned these speakers myself and through everything I could at them but the kitchen sink...and they were mind numbing!!! |
"So....WHY THE HECK AREN'T SOME OF THESE "many" PEOPLE POSTING to the forums?????? I feel so, so, so.........ALONE!" I'm not quite sure, but I understand how you feel. I should also point out for full disclosure that I'm hoping to become a full fledge dealer of Intuitive Design speakers. This is totally based on my enjoyment on the Super Gems all of those years. I proactively contacted Intuitive to inquire about a dealership. |
"I have not heard the Summits yet, but I did own a pair of Essence Super Gems for about 12 years. They were an unbelievable speaker in 1990 and I have heard from many that the Summits are many times better."So....WHY THE HECK AREN'T SOME OF THESE "many" PEOPLE POSTING to the forums?????? I feel so, so, so.........ALONE! |
JT, I love Mdhoovers enthusiasm. I have not heard the Summits yet, but I did own a pair of Essence Super Gems for about 12 years. They were an unbelievable speaker in 1990 and I have heard from many that the Summits are many times better. I live in Minnesota near the Magnaplaner factory. I remember back in the 1990s, Magnapan actually ran an ad saying that they had the 2nd best sound at the Chicago CES. Guess who won best sound? Essence Speakers. I can't wait to get a pair of summits myself. If they are even 15% better thant the Super Gems, they would be worth it. |
Mdhoover,fair enough,you have convinced me these Intuitive Design speakers must be something special.I don't know if I will ever get to hear a pair in Australia though[imagine the shipping costs]. As far as speed and smoothness goes I tend to agree that the two rarely come together.I have Edgar midrange horns amongst other speakers and these are one of the very few exceptions that I have heard.People claim stats are fast but I'm yet to really hear it. JT |
Jtgofish: The answer to your first question is "no." As for speed, these things are LIGHTNING fast. When I said they have the most incredible combination of high end detail and smoothness (both) that I'd ever heard in ANY loudspeaker irrespective of price, bar none, that's EXACTLY what I meant. These are phenomenally, incredibly smooth but they are absolutely, positively, unequivocally, NOT smeared. No, no, no, no.....NO! Quite the opposite (I'm not angry, just trying to hammer home a point here...). I UNDERSTAND that those two things almost NEVER go together, but I swear to you, with this speaker they do. To give you an idea, I thought that these made my Sennheiser HD600's sound....kinda BAD! (To be fair, that was with a Ramsey SHA-1 headphone amp, which is certainly a great value and has gobs of power, but probably falls, um....short...of being hi fi, at least by Audiogon member standards). I ended up getting Stax Lambda Pro Signature Pro Earspeakers with an SRM T1 headphone amplifier/"energizer," and even that set-up doesn't sound as good (to me) as the Summits. The Stax Lambda Signatures MAY have SLIGHTLY more detail, but I'm not even sure about that. Dale Pitcher is on the cutting edge of the cutting edge, period, AND he's cutting in the RIGHT DIRECTION. In my opinion, he's an under-recognized genius, with a great ear and the practical application skills to match his theoretical brilliance. He doesn't really advertise or toot his own horn, yet has never had to declare bankruptcy in 25 years. He SOLD Essence prior to starting Intuitive Design. If phenomenal, lightning fast, detailed, smooth, accurate, phase coherent, dynamic speakers are what you're looking for, then you really owe it to yourself to listen to these. These are his "entry level" speaker, with the next models up selling for ~$38,000 (Pingoras), then ~65,000 (most recent version of Denalis). |
Mdhoover,great review.Are the mid/woofers in these the Scanspeak 7 inch?Friends used these in Proac 2.5 copies. If so I can imagine the sound.They do produce a very full sounding bass and a smooth and rich sounding midrange with good imaging.Proac stopped making these when lots of people started copying them and selling them for much less money. I know other guys using them purely as woofers. I am more into valves and efficient fast dynamic sounding speakers so these sound a bit slow and smeared to me,but can understand their appeal as a great allround sound. JT |
Jtgofish: The Intuitive Design website is certainly short on details. Dale doesn't do a "spiel" at all; in fact, his taciturn nature is something I've found rather frustrating. I did NOT purchase these speakers based on reviewing his website, believe me. I listened to them, TWICE, and they sounded even better in my system than they did at the store. If anything, Dale has tended toward being very highly critical of any potential flaw, and pointing it out, as I mentioned in my review of that loudspeaker: "The midbass punch is just as excellent as that of the Paradigms, and just a tad richer without being soft or fuzzy. I had had concerns about a two way system going so low, but the midrange doesn’t suffer at all. Dale Pitcher had mentioned some potential “Doppler issues”, potentially introducing distortion when the 7” carbon pulp driver has greater excursion at higher volumes. I have simply NOT been able to hear this, ever. I think that they are actually “Doppler NON-issues.”" Please read my Audiogon review of the Intuitive Design Summit Loudspeakers if you want to get an excruciatingly detailed account of just how great these things sound. I don't expect anyone to believe my review, but hopefully it might cause some people to listen to these speakers for themselves. As for product literature, be it printed brochures or website material, I am extremely skeptical. This is because of an experience that I had years ago, looking at a great sounding product brochure about a line of speakers and some electronics. The brochure was gorgeous and, as I recall, it had graphs, and things that looked like scientific measurements, lots of very scientific-sounding explanations of the design and the unique radiation pattern, yada yada yada. I figured the flagship would sound phenomenal, and went to the company HQ to listen. Holy mackerel, what an overpriced, gosh-awful stinker! (In my opinion only, maybe you'd love them...). Now THAT company had made up a spiel! I am and will remain a firm proponent of people ACTUALLY LISTENING FOR THEMSELVES before buying loudspeakers. That's what I did for the Summits, and THEN pulled the trigger. I agree that Dale's website may not be the most glamorous, but I would strongly encourage you and anyone else to at least LISTEN to these prior to dropping a big wad of cash on some other "mainstream" speaker. As I said in the poem: "for then you should find my words to be true |
"Small speakers should not sound big.Trying to make them sound big gives them a fake sounding bass which detracts from their potential for purity of sound.[More excursion equals worse midrange]You are best off with a small speaker that only goes to about 60 hz and then using a subwoofer."Good point, and probably true for most two-way designs. However, I can't detect this problem with the Intuitive Design Summits that I own, and I pointed that out in my review of that speaker. Maybe it would be an issue if they were cranked to ridiculously loud volumes. I haven't been able to hear it, though. I can only assume that they might sound even BETTER than they already do if they had an AGILE crossover set at or above 60 hertz, and ALSO were mated with subwoofers sufficiently fast and up to the task. As for now, no problems, even with hypervigilant listening. |
Stand monitors will sound "BIG" in a small crib. Larger areas, high ceilings? Larger speakers will move more air. My Caravelles were perfect until I moved. 2 Caravelles = (2)6.5 woofers and 2 tweeters. 2 Zu Definition 1.5s. = (12) 10 inch woofers and 2 tweeters. Same footprint. Which do you think sounds bigger? Price of Caravelles with subs and stands were about the same as the Defs. The Caravelles just couldn't do it in the larger space. |
Soniqmike, Great point about some of these faux large speakers. Like the floorstanders that use 6" wide and 40" tall aluminum cabinets and have about four to six 4" bass drivers... Yah, that's a joke for a big speaker. Nice to look at but c'mon, that's not sound. That's marketing. I think in particular of the Difinitive Mythos - hype. You fall for that and you've spent lots of money for mid-fi sound. Of course, most people don't REALLY care what it sounds like. They're too busy trying to impress others with the looks. Of course, WAF has vast influence on this issue...many of our bretheren suffer under the burden of WAF. I recall the B&O speakers of old. Pretty, and pretty BAD sounding! Eye candy and ear crap. Made it into the Smithsonian primarily on looks, like a woman with great body and no wit. You'd be a fool to marry her. At least divorcing such pseudo speakers, you'd not need a lawyer. |
Goatwuss, here are some answers...On the Parsifals: I did sell them for financial reasons, to allocate money for family priorities NOT because I was not thrilled by them. Secondly, I am building a secondary smaller system and not looking for the absolute best or most expensive. I guess It's like trying to find out that great value-priced wine that will taste way above expectations. Also, I would like the smaller speakers to ''fill the room'', and I do not necessarily mean with bass, but it does come into play. I would probably favor wide dynamics and power handling if I had to compromise, and of course truth of sound and accurate bass. I'm not looking for low, but looking for accuracy. AS I mentionned before, I did try the Parsifals as monitors - but comparing it with the full bass cabinets is an unfair comparison... |
Listener57 - LOL, what are the other 9? Most likely, most of us follow them all without even knowing it. Soniqmike - After owned the full Parsifal Encores, why are you even posting in the speaker asylum? lol For serious, what is motivating you to find these elusive small-box-big-sound things after something like the Encores? You trying to challenge the world with parsifal competition in the $3 small monitor? If so - I hope the world is ready. |
Jaybo, Your comment reminded me of a delightful review of how grocery store olives got their size names, including the ever popular super colossal, and super mammoth. Just be careful one of those doesn't roll off the dinner plate and land in your lap. Check out www.sizes.com/food/olives.htm I think I missed contributing to the past discussion about big speakers that sound small. The one where the mighty Wilson Audio Grand SLAMM humbled even the miniature Tivoli Table Radio in the competition to portray the smallest image of the famous buzzing bee in Rimsky-Korsakof's "Flight of the Bumble Bee". |
The stand, btw, is a very significant element in the entire speaker package. A fundemental extention of the speaker. Good, great or primo monitors will never come into their own unless sitting upon a quality stand. And I don't mean Target. Stands can be very costly and be disproportional in price to the speaker. My Revel M20s use to sit atop the Sistrum Mini Monitor Platfrom system, which cost almost as much as the Revels. They were fabulous. And with the Caravelles atop? 'twas amazing. |
Plato, Enthusiasm is still welcome on Audiogon. Hopefully, each of us can be allowed to get the word out when we think something deserves more attention. Your opinions in various discussions have already helped enlarge the pool of shared experience in a positive way. Keep on posting what comes naturally, which I believe is one of the Audiogon Ten Commandments. |
Jamesw20, I'm just putting in a good word for a good product. Bizzy Bee doesn't spend money on advertizing. They mainly rely on word of mouth and satisfied customers who share their thoughts and experience in forums like this. So my post may read like and advert, but it's basically my take on why the TAD-803s are able to impress me the way they have. They lack a bit of extension at both frequency extremes, but the midbass through the lower treble region (where 90 percent of the music lies) seems a bit more coherent and transparent than many other highly acclaimed speakers that I've heard. The feeling I get listening to the 803s is an intimate connection to the music that I get at some concerts (the better ones). This is opposed to other speakers that are hypercritical "reviewer's tools," but lead to premature listener fatigue. I thought some folks might be interested in a speaker like that, but maybe I was wrong. |
By far! - the most dramatic example of this phenomenon I've heard is the Red Rose Monitor. This tiny box produces ridiculous bass. Overall- you may or may not love this speaker- but, as far as big bass from from a small box goes, this one is off the charts. BTW - I own Parsifal/Encores and, although this is a much better speaker overall, the big sound/small box award definitely goes to the Red Rose. |
Purchased used on Audiogon, the Platinum Audio Solo's are in the $600 range, and definitely qualify as smaller monitor speakers that sound large. You didn't specify the size of your listening room, but these do quite a job, including providing enough bass quality and extension to provoke a broad grin upon first hearing what this smaller speaker can do. |
Check out the Gallo Micro and A'Divas as well as the Orb speakers. Can't get any smaller then these and they do sound bigger then they look. I think it much have something to do with the spherical enclosure and baffleless design. Even though they are a single driver they do cover the full range except the deep bass. The Gallo Ti versions are even better. |
Spica TC-60s. John Atkinson wrote Stereophile about them, "...excellent bass extension for a relatively small speaker... mid-treble is clean, clean, clean... The soundstage thrown by the Spicas on this atmospheric track was HUGE... The Spicas do the virtual space thing in a manner that is unrivaled until you start to get into kilobucks territory." He wasn't wrong. They image like gangbusters, and at moderate volume levels, voices and instruments are presented life-size. Positioned correctly, the have much greater bass weight than you'd expect from a small speaker - acoustic bass and kick drum are convincing. I love mine. Every time I listen to Paul Simon's "Graceland", Lyle Lovett's "I Love Everyone", or Steely Dan's "Everything Must Go", I think "Wow!" On "But Beautiful", Boz Scaggs' voice floats solid and life-size ten feet in front of me, and when I look at the speakers I could swear they're doing nothing. An absolute steal. Still, I found some change under my sofa cushions and am about to replace them with a pair of Martin Logan Aerius i electrostats - I've been spoiled by my Stax Lambda Pros. |
Goatwuss, funny you mention the Parsifal, as I owned them for a period of 4 years - the whole bass module and monitor thing. I agree that the monitor alone is great, but I had really never used them as such when I had them. and frankly, for the price, I would go more full-range.... I just wish to get ideas on ''real world'' monitors, say, up to 3K or so... Thanks for your post ! |
Wilson Audio Duettes sound awesome. Almost without bounds! Bob Wood http://www.GreatHomeTheater.com/stereo.html |
