Let's see: we've had the pebbles, the little clock, the turntable platform that includes only some old springs...and now the Contact Paper CD tweek. Do any of us believe in this? I know Geoff's an advertiser, and actually a very nice guy, but come on, fellow audiophiles...this is all the epitome of snake oil! No? Every idea was tried, and has failed, numerous times. Despite being a nice guy, all he's selling is audio nonsense.
Freemand: I agree with your analysis. In the end, what ultimately matters is what the individual listener perceives. If, after putting an alarm clock in your room or having tones played over your phone or drinking a few glasses of Wild Irish Rose, you believe that your system sounds better, then it obviously was worth it to you. I don't think anyone disputes yours or Norm's or anyone else's experience (putting aside the obvious bias that arises when someone like Norm takes freebies, failes to disclose it, and then asserts publicly that they work).
Your analysis does not, however, address the issue of whether those "tweaks" have even a remote chance of helping others. If the point of this forum is to share experiences that may help others, it is important to separate tweaks that have no apparent explanation (which, more likely than not, induce a placebo effect that likely is not repeatable acrosss the population or even for an individual over time) and those that have some basis in rationale, scientific explanations (which are vastly more likely to have a similar effects on others' experiences).
Otherwise, Norm's anecodates about how little pebbles have changed his life are just that: cute, personal anecdotes that contribute nothing to the general understanding and improvement of the forum members' experiences.
This is quite laughable. A product is not deemed good or snake oil on the basis of whether it can be measured by some science method or not. Products should be based solely on whether our ears like the product or not.
When you audition cables its the same thing. What do I prefer or better yet do my ears prefer. Theres no science in it.
Same is with tweaks. Everyone has the right to let their ears determine and not some scientific method. This is listening to audio so no need to complicate things. We don't need a science degree but just ears that hear. In fact, I would trust my ears then some science geeks with a white lab coats and pocket protectors. I learned long ago not to trust their judgements.
Figure this one with science. If my electric goes down hundreds of miles of cable eventually through cheap romax. Why does a $2000 dollar power cord make any difference in improving the sound which we all have come to the knowledge finally that power cords make a difference. Science would seem to tell me that the power cord wont help which is why there where so many na sayers who laughed at expensive power cords in the beginning.
Norm: If your nonsense could not easily be explained by the fact that you are, by your own admission, a compensated shill for Machina Dynamica, your dimwitted comments would be truly inexplicable.
"audiofool and tooly"? how clever you are. i'll bet that one cracks you up every time you read it.
What a mess this has got into. I was reading each and every posts here and was giggling through all the way mainly for the sacarsm and exchange of words from both sides.
I believe this thread was once taken off from Audiogon but was reinstated last week or so?
Tooly, this is utter nonsense. Go find some witches. Your lack of intellect is not only insulting to all of us but is grossly threatening to science and democracy. Fortunately, you have no authority or influence.
Agreed punkuk. Anybody that thinks a telephone call can improve his sound has zero credibility and does not belong in the audio community. Their lack of intellect is an insult to all of us.
Punkuk, give me a break, "it lessens the credibility of our hobby/passion." Credibility to whom? If you read any of my posts rather than what Audiofool and Tooly say, you would know that there are some of the MD products that I have found to have adverse impacts. I have not tried the clock, have used the Brilliant Pebbles but no longer as the interact with my preamp.
But it is the inherently anti-science closure that most offends me with the head in the sand ideas that you espoused. Science advances by observation and noting regularities and then seeking to explain them. But even more importantly, we are not really engaged in science on Audiogon or AudioAsylum, rather we are recounting personal experiences. I really don't care whether you will not try them or whether you do and don't hear any benefit. What really offense me is you and Tooly and Audiofool trying with no justification whatsoever to define what is worthwhile. It reminds me of the same fools in the past saying that an electron does not know what wire it passed through, which I first heard from a renown amp designer. Now such perspectives have been discredited.
No thanks just wanted to voice my frustration at some of the absolutely ludicrous claims that some members buy into.
While I realize that it none of my business what Joe spends his money on but to me it lessens the credibility of our hobby/passion.
Sell this stuff on fleabay but don't peddle it on this reputable site. ( A message to the powers that be why do you allow this nonsense)
And for those who will ask "Have you tried the Magic Pebbles, Rock Salt, Clocks, Calling me on the phone tweak" Majic CD paper" my answer is no I am not that daft.
Wow. How did I miss this thread? Unlike other tweaks in which an infinitessimaly small glimmer of audible improvement might be eeked out (according to the usual technobable), much of this MD stuff is really out there, I mean right "on the edge". Think a Flying, Talking Donkey!
I cannot believe that Agon with all the quality products that are available lets this charlatan sell his crap on this respected site, sorry but words escape me I am totally gob smacked that people actually buy this.
Give your cash to Greenpeace, Oxfam the Sally army.... Hell give it to the Republican Party.
But buy purchasing this crap on Agon only serves to lessen the credibility of the other guys selling cables for thousands of dollars
My dad used to say a fool and his money is soon parted and never was a truer word spoken.
I think the answers to my question of whether tweaks work or are fraud both are yes. IMHO, and I think in everyone's humble opinions some work and others don't. Again in IMHO, one cannot judge a tweak by ones failure to understand how it works or even whether are not many others have found it beneficial. All that really matters is whether one finds it beneficial in ones own system. Given my personal experience, even within ones own system a tweak that works at one time may not at a later time, when your awareness brings to the fore its side effects or when something changes in your system.
As to whether some tweaks are frauds, again I would say the answer is yes. But I think that there are less costly tweaks that are designed to be inexpensive that to some offer little or no benefit. I have personally experiences many tweaks, some of which have no benefit for me but which others find beneficial, including some who I greatly respect. Are they frauds? I think not, although I even hear losses in using them.
Why did I introduce this thread? Because I do not think it is a simple issue of fraud or not., or work or not. I also think personal understanding of the physical principles involve is not a worth criterion for what is fraud and what is not. Scientists have often made such judgments about new ideas only to find later that the new ideas are correct and existing theories need to be altered.
Too often discussions of new components, Memory Player, or power cords, or tweaks discussions end up in what Newbee prefers to describe as "pissing contests." This is true in science also, but at least there most offer alternative explanations of what is going on. Fortunately, in audio it is merely whether or not to buy a tweak or componet. If one likes it, I cannot understand why anyone would argue they should not buy it, whether or not the critics understand how it works or have even personally found it useless.
+++ He is never IMHO going to bring any believers over to his side. +++
Hi Newbee. Seems I would have been terribly unsuccessful evangelist. ;-)
I have decided not to participate in this conversation mostly due to what you state. I think the fact that folks like Geoff Kait make no attempt at explaining their products, but defend their product by discrediting others, more than validate my opinion that they are frauds. (to me anyhow)
I have been involved in audio and electronics for a couple of decades now. Having had many erroneous ‘beliefs’ (and still have many I suppose) and have had my mind opened by posters such as Ralph (Atmasphere) and Raul.
I look forward to posts from individuals with sound factual knowledge such as them as it almost always turns out to be a learning experience from me. For sure, from Norm, Geoff Kait and Jim there is nothing to be learned.
Jea48, I guess you can credit my post to ignorance, interest, and a lack of civility that is becoming a far bigger component in posts about tweaks than the tweaks themselves. Your 'hearing' attack on Pauly was just the perverbial straw. There have been far more eggregious comments by others including Pauly and tgb.
If you don't answer my question thats OK. I'm too lazy to really undertake the suggested research so I guess I'll remain uniformed.
But perhaps you can tell me why folks have to decide whether other folks are deaf, ignorant/uneducated, or deluded depending on whether they are believers or athiests.
Albert is IMHO an outstanding advocate for his beliefs. I can't recall seeing him insult an adversary. He might even chose the time to walk away from an uncomfortable confrontation, IMHO a wise move. Why argue with some one you don't/can't respect. I don't, and I don't tell my enemies when their fly is open.
You are not going to change Pauly's opinion (nor is tgb) so whats the point of continuing. Those folks who feel as Pauly does will do so because its natural for them to do so not because of his articulate balanced presentation of his case. He is never IMHO going to bring any believers over to his side.
But, by way of example, I believe the manner in which the 'believers' present their case, such as have been pursued by posters like tbg as oppose to Albert can easily convert open minded (not pre-disposed) audiophiles to non-believers.
FWIW, IMHO, I feel better for saying 'a pox on both houses'.
Don't take my comments more personal than you deem necessary. "-)
Jea48, It's obvious from your questions to Pauly that you have a complete command of the science involving outlet covers - at least I assume that all of the things that you bring up can affect the difference that different outlet covers can introduce into out systems.
Why don't you take a moment and enlighten us on the science involving outlet covers and how all of the variants you bring up can change the differences that they will introduce.
Oh, have you submitted your set up to such rigorous standards? Have you done blind tests? Or do you just hear a difference with your 'dog ears'.
Hi folks, of course these things (like the Brilliant Pebbles and Shakti Hallographs) are nonsense :) I think there are others that aren't nonsense but their importance is way overrated. Examples: the new WBT RCA plugs. This is a pure marketing strategy presented as a scientific techno babble addressing the importance of the so called tiny Eddy currents. Well in our audio cosmos even the tiniest Eddy currents and distortions matter, but will we ever hear their effects on sound? I don't think so. If one hears diffences, then I'm affraid it is because of the placebo effect.
How about some facts. How about telling all of us how you preformed your tests. *What was the audio equipment you used in your test? Tell us about your system, including the ics and speaker cable used. *Was there any power conditioners used between the audio equipment and the AC power receptacle/s used for the outlet cover plate experiment? *Was aftermarket or DIY power cords used on any of the audio equipment plugged into the test recept/cover plate? *Give us some examples of the music you used for your test. *What were some of the things, from the music material you selected, did you listen for?
We need to know a little about the 120V ac delivery system you used for your test.
* Dedicated branch circuits? * Just a regular convenience outlet branch circuit? * Branch circuit wiring method including material used? Installed in a metallic raceway with a metallic rough-in box? NM-B cable, (Romex trade name)? Metal or plastic receptacle rough-in box? Equipment grounding conductor/s, (safety equipment grounding conductor/s)? Connected to ground in the same panel the the branch circuit/s are fed from? If not as above....safety equipment ground ran to an isolated outside grounding electrode, (ground rod), that is not connected to the main grounding electrode system of the houses main electrical service?
*What receptacle/s are you using? Brand? Model number? Does the receptacle have a steel ferrous back strap or a brass non-ferrous back strap?
* Stainless plates used. Ferrous (magnetic)? Non-ferrous? Was a magnet used to check? *Please tell us how you experimented with the SS plates? Here I am assuming you preformed you experiments using both ferrous and non-ferrous SS plates..... When you experimented with the ferrous SS plate did try the plated not only grounded to the safety ground of the outlet but did you also float the ferrous SS plate above ground? Did you varify the back of the plate was not contacting the recept metallic supporting back strap?
And lastly, and I do not mean this as an insult in any way but it must be asked as it a "control" factor for any listening test. I can only guess your age from reading some of your posts, again only guessing, you are in your middle 60s or older. I have had my hearing tested in the last couple of years. When was your last hearing test?
Hmmmm, Jea69. Since when did the scientific method matter to you?
01-01-06: Jea48 Spiro, thank you for your response. The whole thing about an outlet cover plate changing the sound of my system is still a mystery to me, but my ears tell me it is a fact.
Maybe you should cover your tracks better before popping off. Just sayin'
how telling that, despite the relentless bashing of Machina Dynamica products on these boards, MD's proprietor refuses to join the discussion to offer any defense (explanation) either of his wares or those who have suffered such ridicule for supporting them. i suspect that even you, norm, must feel a twinge of resentment at having been so totally abandoned by the Big Guy.
one would think that Mr Kait would be eager (under the circumstances, maybe even compelled) to offer his point of view on the rationale and efficacy of his audio tweaks. what a great opportunity recent discussion threads have provided to make me and other bashers looks stupid by stepping up with a cogent, substantive discussion of his products. what a disappointment, therefore, that he can only muster a drive-by attack on Pauly, one of his detractors. his refusal to engage in a substantive discussion of his products can't be excused as a desire to stay "above the fray," as his own ad hominum attacks . rather, with only a moment's thought, it is clear why Mr Kait does not offer a substantive point of view on MD products: there is none.
Fatparrot,I agree entirely. But there have been others that are not MD tweaks. Checkout the H-Cat thread. They always involve the scam police and frequently me asking how dare they say what is a fraud. Also, there have been threads in the past involving whether power cords make a difference.
What amazes me is that Audiogon allows endless threads for MD, complete with hostile and abusive posts that would be closed or removed if any other subject or product were involved.
Show me the money!!!! But you may never even see this post.
I must have really gotten to Pauly as he posted a "fraud alert" on another thread. I guess if you can not martial an argument you can yell "fire." Again, IMHO just because Pauly and Jeffrey cannot understand how it works or even if you cannot understand how it works, does not mean it does not work. I don't care really if you try the Teleportation tweak or not, but I have found it of benefit. Had I been presented with a money back offer, I would have tried it, but I don't think Geoff could undo what he has done.
One thing I do now know is that I for one would never value any personal experience that Pauly reports. I doubt his rationality and honesty.
This is not for Jeffrey and Paul as I think they can go suck eggs. In the development of the Teleportation tweak, Geoff offer me an opportunity to try it. This was offered as I had bought 6 bottles of BPs and 2 ICs from him and he thought I was open-minded as I had removed the BPs presently finding them too hard to get to work with my present preamp. I agreed. Other than this I have no products as a result of supportive comments. Everyone should read my initial post where I said after much mockery and a heavily biased initial post by Jeffery on another thread, that I heard a benefit but it was subtle. I had already told Geoff that he would have a hard time selling this tweak, but he went ahead anyway. In answer to my question, Geoff did tell me that 100% of those trying the Teleportation tweak are quite happy with it. I have already suggested that Geoff sells more products as a result of threads such as this and the now dead one by Jeffrey. If they sell Geoff's products who are the scam artists? Perhaps both Jeffrey and Paul are friends of Geoff helping him sell the Teleportation tweak.
Okay guys are you really shills to help Geoff sell his products. Do you know Geoff and do you receive any remuneration for carping about fraud knowing full-well that it sells his products? I just find it difficult to believe that anyone could be as ignorant as these two guys.
Perhaps I should just ignore posts by those who seem to be utter fools, as I am merely helping Geoff, but I have taught research methods throughout my career and act against those, such as Jeffrey and Paul, who seem to believe they know everything and judge this to be a fraud without ever trying it, what I believe to be self-appointed Scam Police piss me off. Paul thinks it his responsibility to protect others from the defrauders, even though he knows not who they may be. They present themselves to be rational and scientific when in reality they are neither. They also think that mockery is valid to argument and discussion. Both probably had mothers who thought such arguments were cute. They were for 9 year olds; certainly not for adult men.
Please believe that I am selective in what I like from all sources, but if I find something I like, I am likely to say something. I do take strong exception to those I believe are pseudo-scientists and will continue to point out the ignorance and lack of logic.
I beg your forgiveness for taking this long to silence the barking lapdogs.
Hi Jeffrey. I suspect you are correct. Looking at Norms posts, it is evident that we have more than plain ignorance at work. For a while now I have suspected that he is part of the scheme to defraud audiophiles.
Although consistently entertaining, these recurring debates with Norm (and his mult Wellfed) are ultimately pointless.
Wellfed, and presumably Norm, are compensated shills for MD. They receive free or discounted product as a quid pro quo for their supportive comments. (norm: would you state publicly and unequivocally otherwise?) Their comments are not, therefore, the harmless rantings of madmen. They are bought and paid for conspirators in the scam. Why give them a pass when they fail to disclose?
Amazing how that additional 21st chromosome you have makes you laugh even when you have been taken to the tune of $1000 for some $5 worth of wooden sticks. I would have been really angry at myself.
Regards Paul
I looked at the Machina Dynamica ads here at Audiogon and cannot find a product that fits that description.
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