Do speaker cables need a burn in period?

Ipse dixit. 🐍💩🗑🐈

glupson
Direction does not matter. I tried. Next thread, please.

>>>>>Operator error noted. Try harder.

stevecham
None of those numbers in that first set of data for FUSE direction 1 vs. 2 are qualifed as statistically significant. We’re talking differences in microOhm and there should be at least three measurements per trial so that a standard deviation is calculated. But of course, a single number stands as "accurate."

The directionality in our subjective minds is far more compelling than any microOhm differences. I’ll bet no one on earth can hear such differences, only if THEY WANT TO.

>>>>Again, you’re not paying careful attention. The differences in measured resistance, while small, were consistent in that they correlated to the direction of the wire pull. And - as I already mentioned - the measured differences are consistent with listening tests. God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason. The differences are not (rpt not) insignificant, in any case. I.e., the differences are not (rpt not) random.

Besides, you can eliminate psychological causes by careful testing, no?

stevecham
And, what the heck do FUSES have to do with SPEAKER CABLES anyway? The direction the wire was pulled? In any of these studies was the resistance correlated with direction of wire pull? I thought so.

>>>>>You need to pay more careful attention, sir. These questions have already been addressed.

Indian burn....😱🌋

Everyone has their own idea of burn-in. I've been around a long time and the best way to "condition" your cables, Boil water in a stainless steel pot and submerge your cables. Be sure not to burn yourself. Boil the water down till the pot burns. Then your cables are ready to use. Oh, and yes they are directional. The sound travels one direction just like we read, from left to right!!!!

Maybe it isn't the wire burning in. Could it be the connections forming a bridge? 

Direction does not matter. I tried. Next thread, please.

And, what the heck do FUSES have to do with SPEAKER CABLES anyway? The direction the wire was pulled? In any of these studies was the resistance correlated with direction of wire pull? I thought so.

None of those numbers in that first set of data for FUSE direction 1 vs. 2 are qualifed as statistically significant. We’re talking differences in microOhm and there should be at least three measurements per trial so that a standard deviation is calculated. But of course, a single number stands as "accurate."

The directionality in our subjective minds is far more compelling than any microOhm differences. I’ll bet no one on earth can hear such differences, only if THEY WANT TO.

But put it under blinded A/B/X testing and the whole house of cards falls apart, which is why the proponents are so quick to avoid such testing. Oh, you mean you're telling me you can't hear with the lights out? Yeah, uh huh..

Cables don’t need burn in. Electrons are in orbital shells in the metal atoms and are not in the least influenced in any lasting or "memory" manner by current applied. This is silly to the point of hilarity to the point of sadness.

I believe the "famous" measurements referenced by Geoff are from the paper linked below;
http://www.hifi-tuning.com/pdf/wlfr.eng.pdf
For an even more enthusiastic testimonial about audible improvements, refer to the Positive Feedback Issue 51 article by Myles B. Astor;
https://positive-feedback.com/Issue51/hifi_tuning.htm
Draw your own conclusions.

Do speaker cables need a burn in? Yes. If you have a good auditory memory and have listened to a song thousands of times then one can easily tell a difference. The sound is rather thin with a somewhat  narrow soundstage and some shrillness present. Next question. Time to rest this post.

In the famous HiFi Tuning measurements of electrical characteristics of fuses of many brands including stock fuses, the lower resistance direction was always consistent with the direction that sounded the best, both for DC circuits and AC circuits. But as noted on the HiFi Tuning data sheets, the rather small differences measured did not account for the relatively significant differences heard in listening tests of “directionality.” And as fate would have it that’s how directionality can be controlled, by controlling the manufacturing process starting with the wire as it comes off the final die. I.e., it’s predictable. Hel-loo!

Do you mean a reproducible difference in resistance as measured but is within the noise parameters of an Ohmeter? Because if we’re talking thousanths of an Ohm, that’s noise.

A good DMM can measure DC resistance down to nano-Ohm. 

Whoa! Hey, chill, I just explained why *electrically* there’s a difference. Do I have to draw you a picture?

I disagree. It’s the right question because electricity is not mumbo jumbo and there must be a physical characteristic that accounts for it. By avoiding the question and calling it wrong (there are no wrong questions, only wrong answers!) you admit there is no such thing as directionality.

What do you mean by resistance in one direction is different from the other? Do you mean a reproducible difference in resistance as measured but is within the noise parameters of an Ohmeter? Because if we’re talking thousanths of an Ohm, that’s noise. For single crystal wire, there are very few breaks in the structure along the length of cable that would significantly contribute to DC based resistance, if it does exist at all. For AC, directionality goes both ways. In my research, I can’t seem to find any evidence for directional resistance effects. In microphotographs, is one able to tell the direction the wire was pulled? I’m asking these questions because it’s about time we get to the bottom of things and stop the handwaving and deception.

That’s the wrong question. The correct question is, why is directionality so audible when the difference in resistance is so small one direction vs the other? I don’t think anyone really knows. Physically, in microscope photos, there does appear to be non symmetrical distortion of the wire crystal structure caused by being pulled through the die. 

So Geoff, what exactly is the physical characteristic that is granted to wire due to being pulled through a die that accounts for electrical directionality?

“One hour of serious abuse is enough to get their character.”

Lost in translation?  Wrong forum?  🙀😱🤔👀🔚

Every component in the ac- or signal path will need moore or less of a burn/break-in. some components in the signal-path like condencers might need a long period, while a powercable gets it`s massage a lot faster.

Speakercables are somewhere between, it will depend a lot on how much power you give them. And if they are worth your time. A poor sounding cable will stay poor.  One hour of serious abuse is enough to get their character.

The metaphysical and the scientific. Until we have testing equipment that can test things outside the reach of science right now, only our opinions can be our reasoning. Does science know all about the behavior of atoms and electrons? I don't think tbere is a physicist, electrical engineer or researcher that would bet their life on it. Oh well the discussion goes on

^^^ I think there is a member here who sells cables tailor made for this gentleman :)

Hey, whatever you’re comfortable with. 😛

One thing you can bet your life on is that atom physics and particle physics are *very* mature sciences.

"mature" is a relative term.  One cannot be so arrogant to claim human has known everything about nature.  Quantum physics is not the final words.  For example, dark matter and dark energy : nobody knows anything about it and they comprise about 90% of the universe.  One has to be humble what one knows and what one does not know.

blueranger
Does science know all about the behavior of atoms and electrons? I don't think tbere is a physicist, electrical engineer or researcher that would bet their life on it. Oh well the discussion goes on.

>>>>Science is not a person so it doesn’t know anything. Scientists are not all the same, some know more about atoms and electrons than others. One thing you can bet your life on is that atom physics and particle physics are *very* mature sciences. So, even if you personally don’t know the answer someone does, sure as shootin’. 

This post is stalemate. We each have passionate beliefs in the ways our stereos sound. The equipment changes and tweeks we believe or don't believe in. Lets keep ourselves in check me included. We seem to have 2 camps here. The metaphysical and the scientific. Until we have testing equipment that can test things outside the reach of science right now, only our opinions can be our reasoning. Does science know all about the behavior of atoms and electrons? I don't think tbere is a physicist, electrical engineer or researcher that would bet their life on it. Oh well the discussion goes on

prof,

sarcasm probably not your best.  stick with philosophy.

Andy,

If your system is so unstable that it alters sound when you change cables, maybe it's not good enough.

;-)

I’ve been stuck with junk from Thiel - like Thiel’s last flagship 3.7 speaker that review after review mistakenly took to be world-class in resolution - as well as MBL radialstrahler speakers ( How do they get away with those prices for such a low resolution speaker, let alone fool people like the Absolute Sound who rated the tweeter among the world’s best for many years!), various Audio Physic speakers (if only those speakers could render "detail," they could maybe Audio Physic make a slogan out of it!), Quads, Conrad Johnson amps, Benchmark DACs, Transrotor turntable, Benz Micro ebony cartridge....

I just got a pair of Acoustic Zen Hologram II speaker cables and the difference is night and day. Yes, and I am using Thiel CS2.4.

My brain isn't good enough.

djones51,

I guess my system is junk. Oh well life goes on.

I feel your pain.

Drat, someone on an audio forum has declared that if I don’t perceive obvious differences between cables, my system isn’t good enough. What will I do????

I’ve been stuck with junk from Thiel - like Thiel’s last flagship 3.7 speaker that review after review mistakenly took to be world-class in resolution - as well as MBL radialstrahler speakers ( How do they get away with those prices for such a low resolution speaker, let alone fool people like the Absolute Sound who rated the tweeter among the world’s best for many years!), various Audio Physic speakers (if only those speakers could render "detail," they could maybe Audio Physic make a slogan out of it!), Quads, Conrad Johnson amps, Benchmark DACs, Transrotor turntable, Benz Micro ebony cartridge....

And still my system isn’t "good enough." 

I’ll just have to suffer along with this crap.

(It’s ok everyone, no need to raise a finger to your keyboard, I’ll do it for you: "then your ears aren’t good enough." Damn, time to give up my job in sound post production I guess...)

flashlier: "What cables, stevecharm, have you tested before and after use, to make the profound claim that cable burn-in does not exist?"

Audioquest, Synergistic, van den Hul, Anticables, Mapleshade, Harmonic Technologies, Tara Labs and most recently Blue Jeans (which are Belden).

No such thing as speaker cable burn in. I’ve been listening to, buying, selling and researching this for about 30 years now. I wanted to believe it, I tried to believe it, but it’s simply a matter of neuroscience, and the power and process of belief. There is no quantitative, measurable physics associated with this. Dielectric formation over time, in a speaker cable?, bah, humbug! It’s the "dielectrics" in your brain!

Don’t fret, there’s always the chance it’s just your hearing. When’s the last time you had your ears candled? 🕯

I guess my system is junk. Oh well life goes on. 

Cables do make a big difference.  If cables don't make a difference in your system, your system is not good enough.

Reminder, when someone accuses people of not learning science nine times out of ten he’s an English major. 

“Only quote facts.”

robert_1,

 For most people, instead of learning and understanding science they choose to follow the blind, and have a justification to their foolish (ego trip) quests to brag about their latest piece of equipment. It is mostly about the hardware specs rather than the music.

I don't see it that way, and it's always dicey trying to ascribe motivations to other people.  Especially when it comes to people's views we don't agree with, we tend to get that wrong giving it the worst spin possible.

My impression, not trying to read anyone's mind, is that people buying expensive cables etc are just as honest and motivated by a passion for music/sound/gear as anyone else.   They are just relying on a certain method of moving through that space.  (And one I tend to use as well - listening, trying things out).

I really don't see this rampant "I just want to buy this expensive cable/gear to show off how much it costs" thing happening, at least not in enthusiast forums like this where it seems clear to me we all share enthusiasm for music, sound and the buzz we get from our systems.

I wasn't criticizing his spelling. I was making sure people knew witch tread i was referring to. We all type/hit the wrong keys all the time. It is understood.

Roger Russell? Oh, please! Let sleeping dogs 🐕 lie.

“I saw Jesus on a slide of bread.”

I wouldn’t criticize anyone’s spelling if I were you, partner. 🤠

For most people, instead of learning and understanding science they choose to follow the blind, and have a justification to their foolish (ego trip) quests to brag about their latest piece of equipment. It is mostly about the hardware specs rather than the music.

Well said.  

@ cleeds: I hear nonsense here.

robert_17 posts10-05-2018 3:27pm

It is all nonsense. Snake oil ... For most people, instead of learning and understanding science they choose to follow the blind ...

Actually I think most people here listen for themselves, rather than follow anybody.

Have you listened? What did you hear?

It is all nonsense. Snake oil."I believe that I saw Jesus on a slide of bread; therefore, it most be true".

 For most people, instead of learning and understanding science they choose to follow the blind, and have a justification to their foolish (ego trip) quests to brag about their latest piece of equipment. It is mostly about the hardware specs rather than the music.

Take for example " No one actually knows how to calculate (misspelled Iculate) what speaker cable they need" by b4icu. so much diatribe. 
To the OP @gawdbless, take some time and read @MorgIII  link in the discussion: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
You will learn something there. 

What I have experienced is when you put the new cables you will notice that your amp runs cool some days and warm some days as the cable burns in but once it is properly settled and burned you will notice the music is free flowing and your amps do not run as warm as they did while burn in and stays at normal temperature

stevecharm - What makes you such an expert?  I've been a beta tester for cables for two decades and have had at my disposal a dozen major manufacturers cables to compare.  You are correct only if comparing cables which do not have great resolution-I couldn't tell if they burned-in or not. 

Well made, high resolution cables, burn-in at different rates depending on the materials and design.  The high resolution IC cables I've tested take a minimum of 24 hours, A/C and speaker cables longer.  I've already stated that I've compared many cables new to cables with 24 hours to one week use on them and concluded there is a DEFINITE, SIGNIFICANT difference in high end cables before and after burn-in.  

What cables, stevecharm, have you tested before and after use, to make the profound claim that cable burn-in does not exist?   

Burn in of speakers: Much more plausible than what's been offered for cables.

Just go to : www.diy.com and you'll see people measure speakers drivers and they changed after burn in.  

blueranger,

Do any of the nasayers believe in equipment break in? Tube break in? Speaker break in?

To be clear: I'm not a "naysayer" in the sense I claim cable burn in doesn't happen.  I've just found the arguments I encounter FOR it aren't very convincing.  As well,  I've never heard any equipment I've ever bought, cables or otherwise, "burn in."  Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

As for burn-in of tubes:  I don't know.  (I actually have a brand new pair of tubes I'm going to be putting in my CJ pre-amp.  Unfortunately, even in as a casual test of burned in vs non-burned in tubes, it wouldn't work in my situation.  The reason I'm replacing my tubes in the first place is that the old ones have become more noisy, hiss coming through my speakers, so there ought to be an obvious change when I put in the new ones. I hope there is!)

Burn in of speakers:  Much more plausible than what's been offered for cables.   But there seems very, very little hard data on the subject.  And analysis by the people who have tried measuring speaker burn in - e.g. drivers burning in - generally seem to point out if it happens the audible results would tend to be very subtle, and that any likely audible difference in break in happens fairly quickly, vs the hundreds of hours one often hears about in high end audio.

taras22,

Thanks for the invite.  I might be at the Toronto show (hope to go).

No worries, I'm not a leafs fan (not a hockey fan - I'm a bad Canadian that way).   Oh, and I don't take any of these discussions seriously in terms of personalities or holding any animosity at all.  Nothing on an audio discussion forum is worth that. 

Cheers!

More "brain burn in" is always a good thing. No wonder many sip the etoh or smoke/vape the herb while listening.

Looks like someone still behind the time.  This has been talked over again and again.  Manufacturers have lots of components that they can compare side by side, some old some brand new, so there is no need to resort to "brain burn in" argument.

Steve. There are wires in all the devices you stated. You might want to consider that  part of the break  you are hearing is in the wires!