Do Costly XLR Cables Make A Difference?

Go the other way first.  Get some bargain microphone XLRs from guitar center, and if you can't hear a difference between them and your $2K cables, you're done:

This is a fine discussion and - so far - unencumbered by righteous zealots. I was a cable skeptic until I visited a NordOst demo at the 2008 RMAF (together with my unbiased - because uninterested - wife: we are both scientists and know everything there is to know about expectation bias). The demonstration involved loudspeaker cables, a standard Radio Shack, followed by 4 NordOst sets of increasing price (if I remember correctly, "Odin" was the top). I do not remember the brands of the front electronics, but they sure looked very impressive with two mono-amps driving the channels. The most impressive part were the small X-1 loudspeakers made by Raidho, a Danish manufacturer of high-end gear (https://raidho.dk/product-showcase/x-series/): these are two-way and quite small shelf boxes with a sound that completely filled the large ballroom of the Mariott hotel. But I digress: the demo music was a big-band swing recording (Basie??) and both, my wife and I were floored by the first presentation (Radio Shack cables) because of the 3-dimensionality of the Raidho presentation. But then came the "shocker" when the lowest-tier NordOst cable was being switched in: the music gained remarkable focus with individual sections clearly defined in space, or in other words, the presentation became definitely more realistic while not losing anything in terms of fireworks and sparkle: the effect was so obvious that we both were really surprised. But then came the "downer": the following three cables, while definitely leading to some improvements in terms of pin-pointing even more the individual musicians, did not really fundamentally change the experience in a way that would have us to say: oh yeah! In other words, at least for us, the presentation showed us one thing - most likely not what NordOst were shooting for: definitely a diminished cost/quality return ratio. In this regard, I think many of the above commentators pointed in the same direction. I must also say that my hearing has considerably worsened in the past 15 years, and that I would possible no longer really experience these last precious effects. And of course: these were speaker cables, while the original question was about XLR. I am currently using Anticable connects after reading deeply into cable construction philosophy (https://anticables.com/interconnects/analog-xlr-interconnects). There is actually a lot of very interesting science around this topic, going as deep as making Maxwell's Field Effects responsible for the audible differences of cable architecture: apparently, the electrical signal "travels" on the outside of the conductor as a disturbance of the circumferent quantum-field, and therefore metal litz-based cables "muddle" the signal inadvertently; single-strand conductors should therefore be better. Several sources state convincingly that thick PVC insulators as well degrade the audio signal in terms of "clarity", and therefore advocate a "naked" approach. Now, I must admit that in this case (my changing from Mogami XLR to Anticable XLR) I could not hear an earthshaking difference in sound presentation: maybe a certain "crispness" in the upper midrange, but I cannot really say for certain (see my musings about my hearing above: after all my ears have been in constant use for 73 years). And here it comes: at least as far as I am concerned, my choices of audio gear are based on a degree of insecurity on my part: "what if...", I could have done better? "What if ..." I am missing in my current set-up a degree of enjoyment and musical veracity I cannot even imagine? And "What if ..." a few thousand dollars more could actually transport me into this experience? That's what many folks on Audiogon seem to mean when they speak of the "Rabbit Hole"; and yes, I am aware of this danger. And so should the originator of this thread be (Ryder): spending an extra couple of thousand $$ on an interconnect might ameliorate his insecurity but not heal it: reading the next cable review in one of the paid-by-advertisers audiophile rags, might again shake his confidence to the core (what these reviews are exactly designed to do; and yes, I fall for those too, as I do for good copy-writing in general). If I were Ryder, I would follow one of the advices above (muvluv) and try to make my own cable, honestly: that's one of my future projects as well. If you look at the architecture of a "naked" cable, it seems that the most important factor will be the nature of your conductor (e.g. 99.9999% pure and drawn non-crystalline or single-crystal copper, silver, or a Cu/Au alloy wire, which can be bought from Mundorf in Germany) shielded by a non-muddling insulation such as cotton, extra-thin silicon or even air, plus the amount of material resistance and the resulting impedance of the entire cable (in tis context urbie contribution about Neotech's square OCC copper or silver conductors is worth following up, I would submit). All these factors contribute to the degree of "purity" of an audio signal, especially in a single-ended cable (but less so in a balanced (XLR) configuration, as the common wisdom seems to indicate). And then of course the fundamental issue: is my gear of a high-enough quality (sensitivity) that I can actually perceive the subtleties that a multi $$ interconnect might (or might not) reveal in my system? I love the comparison by akg_ca making the analogy between putting racing tires on a regular car and expecting them to turn it into a sports car. In this context: make sure you got a DAC/Preamp combo that can indeed reveal those subtleties, lest your potential interconnect investment would be much better spent on your loving spouse or even better, a contribution to your local food bank: making you feel good is guaranteed in this case!

Earlier today I posted a recommendation to compare the current XLRs to some bargain cables that can be had from any music supply retailer, costing in the $15-$40 range. Implication was if there was no sonic difference noticed then no need to progress. 

However, my post was removed. I’d like to know why.  It was intended as a reasonable and cost effective potential solution. Not everybody on this forum has thousands to spend on cables. Some audiophiles appreciate a low cost option. 
 

Was my post considered facetious?  It wasn’t. 

 

Earlier today I posted a recommendation to compare the current XLRs to some bargain cables that can be had from any music supply retailer, costing in the $15-$40 range. Implication was if there was no sonic difference noticed then no need to progress.

However, my post was removed. I’d like to know why. It was intended as a reasonable and cost effective potential solution. Not everybody on this forum has thousands to spend on cables. Some audiophiles appreciate a low cost option.

Was my post considered facetious? It wasn’t.

And the first response (mine) in this thread suggested the same thing @volumizer .
If the $2k cables can be picked out compared to the $25 ones 7 times out of 10, then there is a reason to believe that the OP should be looking at other cables.

if not, then…?

I am sort of a cheap fellow… so my $50 IC cables are Mogami and Nuetrik with solder and flux cost and I use the brown jacket so they match the wood floor colour and hide any coffee stains. Maybe those cables are more like $100 in value, so I am only getting the exact length I need with my wire cutters, iron, and effort.

If I were Ryder, I would follow one of the advices above (muvluv) and try to make my own cable, honestly: that’s one of my future projects as well. If you look at the architecture of a "naked" cable, it seems that the most important factor will be the nature of your conductor (e.g. 99.9999% pure and drawn non-crystalline or single-crystal copper, silver, or a Cu/Au alloy wire, which can be bought from Mundorf in Germany) shielded by a non-muddling insulation such as cotton,

what causes muddling and is the muddling measurable?
If it is some hysterysis of the dielectric, that say a battery bias is trying to overcome… then does the cotton address the hysterysis to achieve the same result?

extra-thin silicon or even air, plus the amount of material resistance and the resulting impedance of the entire cable (in tis context urbiecontribution about Neotech’s square OCC copper or silver conductors is worth following up, I would submit). All these factors contribute to the degree of "purity" of an audio signal.

I got some cotton jacked wire for IC cables but, again, can this stuff be measured or picked out in a blind test?
I am assuming that the capacitance may be lower as the dielectric constant decreases, but unless the thing driving it has a high output impedance, then does that even matter?

Is the “purity” of this audio signal measurable? And how does it show up? I.e. In what measurement? @reimarc

I honestly do not know, @holmz: I never did the comparison in a blind A/B setting, let alone did I perform any measurements. I just re-iterated what I had read in various blogs and articles written by specialists (I, on the other hand, am an organic chemist and not an electrical engineer). My only personal reference would be swapping insulated Mogami XLRs for "naked" Anticable ones; and as I have said: the acoustic differences were minor (I got the Anticables for a basement discount, btw). But I must say nevertheless: reading deeply into the physics behind cable design and architecture was quite humbling. There is a lot more going on, then just sending current through a wire, when it comes to a veracious reproduction of highly modulated and complex audio signals, that's for sure; and the scientist in me thinks there might be still effects out there which we do not know about and hence do not know how to correctly measure and quantify. On the other hand, though: the final link in the event chain is our brain, and just before that our innate mechanism to transform minute tree-dimensional air pressure variations into electrical signals. And quite obviously, the fidelity of this mechanism suffers from age. In other words, whatever objective truth there might be behind what we read about cable X being "better" than cable Y, it might just no longer be audible to us once we finally got the financial means to embark on the serious quest for the audio Grail.

Thanks @reimarc .
 

…
There is a lot more going on, then just sending current through a wire, …

It is more like sending the electric field around the wire, then current in the wire for an IC.
A speaker cable has more of the current. 

Cotton and “naked” are more affecting the field and how it propagates. Whether we hear much of what is happening is uncertain, but it could get pretty nuanced.

I got some cotton ones to try out.

@reimarc - What's most interesting is that even if we could measure every aspect of cables and audio equipment in general, listener preference would still trump.  My ideal would be to meaningfully correlate measurements to sound signatures so that it would be possible to use the measurements to make at least an educated as to whether I might appreciate the product.

I would agree with Whipsaw.  If you've got a good 2k cable, spending a lot more may only yield a very small improvement, if any is even noticeable. You can spend thousands more chasing rainbows. If you're going to make a leap, go much higher and buy Audioquest Dragon.  If you don't hear an improvement, lesson learned.  If you do hear an improvement, stop there. Don't be tempted to go into the stratosphere of Crystal Cable (despite what Jonathan Valin says in The Absolute Sound) or top of the line Siltech unless you're a Saudi oil sheik and don't care.

For holmz: check this website for cotton-insulated wires: https://www.vhaudio.com/unicrystal-occ-silver-wire.html

BTW: the way I understand it, the electromagnetic field around the conductor arises the moment it gets connected. What we call the 'signal" is actually a disturbance of this field traveling along the conductor at near-light speed. However, the material-dependent impedance of the conductor is responsible for the time-aligned transmission over all frequencies; hence the "smearing" of the signal at higher impedance. This part is still puzzling me: if the event takes place around the conductor and not through it, how can its material make a difference? Or are some aspects of the field dependent on it? But again, I am not an electrical engineer or a physicist.

to mceljo: we actually do just that - or at least trying to - with loudspeaker frequency response curves, for example. They do actually give one a pretty good idea what the speakers may sound like (in an an-echoic chamber at least) by just looking at the graphs, including spacial resolution along the x- and y-axes. The shapes of square waves do a similar indicating job for amplifiers, jitter plots for DACs, etc. However - and I think that's what you are referring to - they are only approximations, neglecting what might be the most important part in sound-prediction: psychoacoustics (and of course the acoustic idiosyncrasies of one's listening room). I am not sure if we will be able to ever address psychoacoustics through electronic measurements of the gear, albeit many scientists are trying to do just that. Objectivity might rely on the generation of huge like/dislike data sets and analyzing them for congruences. But even that sort of analysis wound never address YOUr subjective preferences. Or, alternatively, an audiophile could undergo a set of standard evaluations, physical and psychological, to determine what aspect in a reproduced sound makes him/her tick, e.g. measuring brain activities during an MRI scan specifically pinpointing pleasure centers while using specific classes of sound reproducing techniques/gear (e.g. analog vs. digital), tube vs. transistors, chip-based vs, ladder-DAC, etc.). Coming out from such an evaluation - if done correctly- should help you with choosing the type of equipment that would trigger most successfully your pleasure centers, potentially influencing your buying choices in a dramatic way; and - after all - it's pleasure we are after in our listening rooms, no?

@reimarc the field is zero when it is connected but not energising the conductors with a signal.
Maybe there is a gradient in the room as one moves up, but it should still be around zero with a cable that is driven closer to what the local ground it at.

With respect to smearing, the speed of light is pretty high, and unless the cable is quite long, or there is a lot of dispersion (which looks like group delay), then I cannot imagine a huge contribution.

That fact that many people are not critical of time delay, nor group delay in speakers, seems at odds with being very concerned with it popping up to a lower extent in the cables.

Maybe it does, but I doubt I can afford many of those cables.

reimarc - What’s most interesting is that even if we could measure every aspect of cables and audio equipment in general, listener preference would still trump. My ideal would be to meaningfully correlate measurements to sound signatures so that it would be possible to use the measurements to make at least an educated as to whether I might appreciate the product

I can always hear a difference when I know how much the gear costs and I am looking directly at it.

When one can tell a difference in a blind A/B test, then it suggests that the difference is more than thee chance of a good guess… or seeing the cable while listening.
If there are 6 dozen cables that sound similar, and one differs, it might mean that the 6 are all more neutral ones. But it doesn’t mean that we might llke the odd sounding one better.

I am using Siltech Crown prince XLR,s at the moment. which is a good cable for sound. I have not had a more pricey cable to try for sound difference but know it better then a cheaper one. At this moment i feel that changing the plugs on my power cables {black cat} to Furutech NCF make my music sound crisper. For a cheaper price than upgrading my XLR cables. The rhodiums help with the bass and the silvers more with mids and highs. My system is Parasound JC5 amp, MBL Noble pre and cd dac. With Crystal Cable Arabesque Glassmaster speakers.

YES!!

I like to place my front end components on the side wall so they are not between the speakers and run long balanced cables to monoblocks which sit very close to the speakers. This allows me to use very short speaker cables, but means my Preamp to amp interconnects are 7M. My other interconnects are quite short (1M or less). I could not discern much difference between relatively inexpensive cables (e.g. Mogami) and more expensive cables for these short connections, but the differences were much more apparent with the 7M connections. 

I ended up settling on Iconoclast 4x4 UP-OCC interconnects. These are not outrageously expensive in longer lengths (now about $4k for 7M, was a bit less when I bought them) and provided a nice improvement in detail and a modest improvement in image solidity compared to other cables I tried. I didn't try any of the Uber-expensive cables though. 

And yes, my equipment (DIY) does adhere to the AES standard. 

@jaytor

…

I could not discern much difference between relatively inexpensive cables (e.g. Mogami) and more expensive cables for these short connections, but the differences were much more apparent with the 7M connections.

I believe it. The most likely explanation is the interconnects you use between preamp and amp(s) are what influences the sound the most. I was in the same boat when I moved my front end components to the side wall and ran a 15ft Mogami XLRs to my amp for a month or so. It was not even close to what the AZ Absolute Copper sounded like. During that time I tried different interconnects and power cables on the source components and the Mogami were always the bottleneck in realizing the improvements brought by those changes.
I ended up moving everything back to be able to use my 1m AZs between the pre and amp again. Way more benefits using higher quality cables than removing a 5 shelf vertical rack from between the speakers. Now if the AZs weren’t so expensive for a 5m set it would’ve been a no brainer.

“Way more benefits using higher quality cables than removing a 5 shelf vertical rack from between the speakers.”
@audphile1

Exactly! I was using 25FT RCA cable between Pre and amp and always wondered about the weak link by settling on most affordable cable. I got around with this quandary by laying out my components horizontally between the speakers.

it will make a difference if the XLR cables connect 2 components that are both differentially balanced.

@lalitk that’s exactly the next step I plan to take. Position components in a horizontal fashion between speakers as low as possible.

If your system is good enough to hear it then it maybe worth it,

also very important is that from your dac to preamp,or integrated it is Differentially balanced , meaning true balanced on both pieces of equipment , some are or many Fake balanced  , it has to state this ,if not you will not reap all the benefits.

I'm an electrical engineer and many time have serious doubts about one might consider "woo-woo" claims about the impact of more expensive interconnects, power cords, fiber optic, etc.  I've used the Cable Company in Pennsylvania (www.thecableco.com) and found them to be extremely knowledgable about cable, have a world-class selection, and have a test-drive before you buy program that lets you a/b test multiple cables before making a purchase.  I auditioned 6 different sets of speaker cables before finding the perfect match for my system without risking a $5,000 purchase for a set that didn't work out.

I'm an electrical engineer and many time have serious doubts about one might consider "woo-woo" claims about the impact of more expensive interconnects, power cords, fiber optic, etc. 

And yet, based on the rest of your above post, you apparently do believe that there are differences in the sound produced by different cables, despite there not being any clear explanations for why that is the case. Is that correct?

We can all agree that more expensive cables are not necessarily better than less expensive ones. But if you find differences between lower cost cables, why would there not, at times, also be differences found in higher priced cables? Value, and diminishing returns are related, of course, but only part of the story.

Hello @phishhhhh4, I too avoid (hate) the little battery packs associated with some cables.  I have high end stuff with a mix of Kubala Sosna Elation and Realization and I love them.  I have tried many others and I did  have a full loom of Audience AU24SX which I thought wonderful until I heard the Elation cables.  Battery packs may help, but I am just not going there!

And op @ryder , All my cable upgrades have made an improvement to my ears and in my system.  I believe in synergy, and would want all cables the same or very similar.  I do not like any silver in my interconnects, power cords or speaker cables.

Not sure about silver in USB cables but mine is pure copper K-S Ralization. or part of my MUON Filter System from Network Acoustics (recommend highly).

Disclaimer, I do not use any XLR balanced cables as Audionet recommends single ended interconnects (RCA) to avoid the op-amps associated with the conversion of the XLR signal in their equipment.  I do not have long runs for these at 1 or 2 Meters.  Good Luck!  Cables are the hardest thing to figure out.  Disbelieving is the easiest way out, just not (to me) the best sounding!

Audiophools are so easily separated from their $$$, just the thought of a 3k cable 'being better' than a 2k cable is laughable at the very least !!

Most are easily separated from their $$$ when they perceive an improvement, enjoyment and satisfaction from the purchase.  This is true in everything we buy.

If you don't see, hear, taste  or feel the improvement, then you are most welcome to keep your money.  Especially if that gives you satisfaction!  People come here to see if others have appreciated all the various upgrades vs. others that have not experienced them.

Good expensive cables if  match properly the cheaper even if match , the expensive one win.

have said this in many cable threads

for dedicated audiophiles who sometimes change their equipment, it is good to treat a selection of cables as tools in a tool kit for final tuning, as they can and do subtly alter the sonic presentation, in terms of frequency response, perceived speed, openness, imaging qualities -- this is due to physics, different cables of different materials, construction, connectors, represent different electrical properties (r-l-c) and isolation from the surrounding elements

cost of cables is another matter, there is much marketing b-s, especially regarding hyper expensive cables... so long as the cables are well made, with quality materials and terminations, it is smart to know what cables do what sonically, one can use cables to get the synergistic effect desired at any given time

in my case, i have been at this for many years, swap equipment quite a bit

so for interconnects i have beldens cardas zu discovery cerious to smooth/warm the sound, kimbers nordosts nbs to liven things up up top, vampire and other shielded silver cables to get more vast open imaging with a subtle sheen, straightwire wireworld mogami and midgrade audioquest to start things pretty neutral when a new component is inserted, go from there, and so on...

there are those who say cables shouldn’t used a tone controls, in theory yes, but as a practical matter, experienced hobbyists do this regularly

Try Vogue Audio pure Silver Cable's, they're inexpensive and very good quality cable's.  They are my go to online store for XLR Interconnects, Power, and Speaker Cables, oh yea, RCA Interconnects. 

“…for dedicated audiophiles who sometimes change their equipment, it is good to treat a selection of cables as tools in a tool kit for final tuning.”

@jjss49 

I agree, and with the rest of your post too.  
The cables need not be expensive but it helps if they are different and bring their own unique strengths.  For example, I keep SCs by Harmonic Tech (lots of OCC copper, fine gauge solid core, and individually insulated), Furutech (super fine strands of OCC copper in foamed PE), and NOS WE (annealed, tinned, stranded copper), and a few others that all result in a subtly different sound.  Same type of deal with PCs and ICs.

I recently switched from Audience Front Row XLR cables (between my Audio Research CD9 DAC and my Hegel H390 integrated amp) to Snake River Audio XLR cables. The SR's are cheaper than the Front Rows, but there was a nice gain in sonics - more dimensionality, better clarity of images, better audibility of air both in front of and behind the images

I’ve heard plenty of difference in single ended cables, both good and bad. I’ve never heard any difference between balanced (xlr) cables in my system. 

very simply, do an honest (blind) A-B test on this. i'm willing to bet any amount of money that there is no detectable audible differences among properly-built, well constructed cables. amazon basics, monoprice, world's best cables are among the low cost choices that i have used repeatedly. there's snake oil nonsense and then there's audio cables nonsense. feel free to flush money down the toilet if it makes you feel better somehow ... no one is harmed except the person throwing away his hard-earned money.

again, just invite a few friends over and set up a truly blind listening test. at the end of the day, isn't the sound quality what we are after? why pay for things that simply do not sound better? save that money for buying records, upgrading speakers, etc.

with my system i hear  a lot more than just runaround the mill products there is a new player in cables dont remember the name ..he gave me a set of cables to try said he wanted an honest opinion  i tried these cables and found the highs to be so open and  so transparent  asking about the cables ,the only word i got from him was NICKEL...cant find them on the net or anywhere,but still looking  wil keep looking fill i find them........

I'm on Day 1 with my first audiophile approved balanced interconnects.  Here's what I can say:

Denafrips Ares II DAC to Pathos Classic One Mkiii

Original Interconnect was 1m Audioquest Sydney RCA ($200).

Trial Interconnect was 6ft Monoprice Premier Series XLR ($30).  Result was a very similar sound that I convinced myself had lost some of the smoothness of the AQ Sydney, but it was very similar.

New Interconnect is 1m Morrow Audio MA4 XLR ($330).  Initial impressions are that the sound is clearly different (i.e. I can describe in detail specific things that sound different on a given song).  To my ears, I won't be going back.

I wasn't sure what to expect because I've been very happy with the AQ Sydney and with the short 1m interconnect it's easy to argue that I shouldn't hear much of a difference, especially based on how similar the Monoprice XLR sounded to the AQ.

Nice integrated until you have a problem with it. Some 5 years ago a friend had one with a problem. His emails to Italy went unanswered for long periods of time! And no one in the US seemed capable of resolving it (probably no schematics available). Now that aside, I seriously doubt it's true balanced (only 2 tubes). Checking Pathos site, no indication it is true balanced: many companys add XLR inputs for convenience, not because of an actual sonic benefit, but if that's what you have why not use it?

You will likely get much bigger benefits by treating all your cables with Mad Scientist Graphene Contact Enhancer. IMHO, by far the best tweak one can make

hth

depends on the cable and how it is used----But YES they do

@reimarc

"if the event takes place around the conductor and not through it, how can its material make a difference?"

Because all materials involved form an inter-relationship, as do electromagnetic fields outside of the system. Its not just "one thing" happening.

@tweak1 - That's interesting to hear.  The local shop that I purchased it from (used) will repair Pathos I'm fairly certain.  Also, I'm a member of a Pathos group on FB and one of the members works at Pathos and is routinely asking questions and such.  She even pushed on Upscale Audio for me when I was trying to get a remote for it through them.

Because all materials involved form an inter-relationship, as do electromagnetic fields outside of the system. Its not just "one thing" happening.

The field is part of the system, it is not outside of it.