DIY Speaker Kits, a good idea?

@vthokie83 

The price listed above is in EU, it runs about $6300 US for the kit. Their price also includes the VAT. I think the VAT(usually a hefty %) is excluded for people ordering from the USA.

Madisound also carries a Linkwitz LX521 "kit" of sorts for considerably less money.. I appears all the pieces are there in separate sub-kits(except power). 

I came very close to committing to the Linkwitz Orions years ago(2010-ish), but I shied away at the required power options.  The current LX521's still require a true commitment (the build, crossover, non-std power..), but it's much easier.  I expect the path to an up and running pair of the 521s is well worth the effort. I ran across this build-blog recently on the 521s. While a fair amount  of work, the process looks pretty straight-forward.

https://www.afterness.com/audio/lx521.html

At the time(2012) I did pick up a kit to build GR Research's Super V.  Long story, but I'm now, finally, building them up.  I have the cabinets built(from scratch, no flatpack) and I'm approaching the paint-finishing stage.  I'll run them with a Don Sachs pre and power amp(speakers have 97 dB sens, 8 ohms). 

Hopefully the Super Vs will be my forever set of speakers.  If not, a pair of 521s would be on my short list.  It's nice that since Siegfried has passed, his speakers continue to be available. Quite a legacy. 

nogaps

Thanks for the correction, I was bouncing back and forth between the Linkwitz site and Madisound....and forgot to correct my brain. The link was great thank you, though I have NO wood working skills and would have to get the best flat packs available.

I'm still considering building the 521s in the future, as I don't think I'll ever get to the point where I can justify a $20,000 speaker purchase......not when so many magical speakers exist in the $7,000 to $13,000 range

I highly encourage speaker building. It's really not that difficult and is very rewarding and yes, they can sound as good as any commercial units.

One area of DIY speakers that could use improvement is the cosmetic finish. Most of the DIY speakers look home made and not in a good way. Most I see are poorly done.

The world of veneers and stains and high gloss finishes requires very specilized tools and years of experience. These products are NOT available at Home Depot. You can get a decent appearence if you stay with basic finishes. However, you will NOT achieve the level of Sonus Faber high gloss finish. High gloss piano black requires a good deal of expertice.

It seems a shame to pay an auto body shop to paint speakers for the same as the entire cost of the kit, possibly more. It also seems a shame to have a new speaker end up looking like a high school project. Some do OK, but not many. It's a sore spot.

I guess it depends what you are looking for. Audiophile sound (not just good sound), a neat project (commendable), or trying to save money. 
I see it that even high end speaker Co can’t get it right so how is something that I build (even a kit) going to give me exceptional sound?!

If you build a proven design like Linkwitz's 521 and you stick to spec, you will have audiophile sound in a world-class speaker.

It's easy to spend well over $10K (including amplification) on a 521 build, but it's still a bargain relative to the handful of retail speakers capable of equal or better sound quality, or even to the $30-35K linkwitz.store charges for the finished product. 

Linkwitz 521 can be auditioned - look up "Linkwitz lounges". Have fun!

@tshark  "...so how is something that I build (even a kit) going to give me exceptional sound?!"

You off-load the design to someone else. That's the point of buying a kit and not designing the kit yourself. 

(..and many high end designs do get it right..you're buiding a straw man and then easily cutting it down..)

gdaddy1..yep DIY appearance can be an issue. Building a set of speakers from a pre-cut flat pack is pretty easy, even for someone with minimal woodworking skills.  If you're at all handy around the house then building a set is very doable.   

Then comes the appearance-finishing stage(gulp).  I've seen many DIY finishes that are very nice, either painted or veneer, but that does take experience and some talent.  I've seen many DIY stained Baltic birch speakers that may sound wonderful, but stained Baltic birch..ugh. (to me) One of the ugliest appearances on the planet as birch doesn't take stain well..at all. B-birch can look nice(r), but you need to know how to do it. So yes, appearance is a thing and either you need to have the talent yourself, or you hire it out, or..you do what you can. There's a couple build threads on the GR audiocircle site now where guys with little finishing experience are getting to very nice finishes because that's what they want and they're willing to do what's necessary to get there. Where many people fall down, in any endeavor in life, is they just are not willing to do what's necessary to get where they want to go.  Such is life. 

..and(not directed at you) many folks excel at coming up with a thousand reasons why things can't be done.  In my working life, they were everywhere.(..and they were often boring people.)

@nogaps: I myself almost bought the GR Research Super V to build. Before that could happen I was introduced to the Eminent Technology LFT-8b, an open baffle/dipole planar-magnetic hybrid loudspeaker (p-m for 180Hz and up, an 8" dynamic woofer in a sealed enclosure for 180Hz down). I’ll provide a link to the review of the LFT-8b by Steve Guttenberg below.

Since you already own the amazing GR Research/Rythmik Audio Open Baffle/Dipole Woofer system (incorporated in the Super V), you can do what I did and use it in place of the stock LFT-8 woofer. The LFT-8b features two sets of binding posts, one for the planar/magnetic panels, the other for the woofers. Just leave the woofer disconnected, and use the OB/Dipole woofer in it’s place. You may then set the balance between the panels and the woofers with the controls on the Rythmik Audio plate amp that is included with your Super V kit. You will then have a completely OB/dipole loudspeaker that can reproduce the full 20-20kHz sound of music, and at a bargain price! I like Magnepans as well as the next fella (I bought my first pair in 1973, and currently own a pair of Tympani T-IVa), but I agree with Guttenberg: The LFT-8b is better.

https://youtu.be/Uc5O5T1UHkE?si=KdWi2ZuslOZvYSPk

I just watched the video. Sounds like great set of speakers and mixed with the GR sub system..yikes,  Cost is very reasonable if they sound like Steve says. I’ve always liked planar/EM types. Never owned a pair, but I make a point of listening to whatever is available at audio shows.  But first!  I need to get the Super Vs up and running.  I’m a couple days work away form starting the final finishing. Still doing the final surface prep before the first coat of primer,  You’ll see the build thread on GR’s AC site.  I’ll be running the SVs with a Don Sachs DS2 pre and a DS Kootenay amp.  I’m hoping this will be a long term system..but, we’ll see. 

Sounds like the LFT-8b are power hungry. I currently run a McCormack DNA-1 (yes..still running wonderfully despite a gloom and doom thread here a few years back).  Should do fine, if need be. 

Thx for the (excellent) suggestion. It’s good to have options.  

(oh, and I auditioned a pair of Tympani speakers..jeez..3+ decades ago. Wow..didn't have room for them at the time though.)

@nogaps: I also don't have room for the Tympani's, that's why they are sitting in their cartons in a spare room.

As for the power needs for the ET LFT-8b's: While they are a low sensitivity loudspeaker (84dB, the same as Maggies), they are an easy 8 ohm load. And if you don't use the woofer, the planar-magnetic panels are an even easier 11 ohm load, great for tube amps. And with no current demands from the stock woofer, a 100w/ch amp is plenty for moderately sized rooms. $3200/pr, a true bargain.

Apologies for the late reply, just moved after 35yrs so I’m underwater with boxes of stuff.  My garage is packed with boxes 4 high with a narrow path, and many more within the home.

@devinplombier : Consider Linkwitz

I’ve demoed Linkwitz several times.  The first it sounded meh, but lately they sounded really good.  I suspect the drivers were different.  Their top drivers cost 20k, significantly more than I’d like to spend on a kit.

@decooney: If you have never designed or built anything like this before, and have very high expectations on how it turns out - its worth spending up a little more [first time] buying a proven kit with the right drivers and crossovers, with cabinet plans, or explore cabinets you can purchase through the product designer if desired.  

Yep, this is were I’m at.  The the transducers of upper end kits seem sonically promising 

Panel speakers from scratch: I read that Stereophile Herb REICHERT visited Nelson Pass who had a homemade panel speakers that Herb loved.  So I wrote down the individual transducers to maybe construct a pair of my own.  In my layman’s mind it seems that it’s simple to mount the transducers, wire the terminals,  then wire to a crossover (am I missing something). Problem is, besides knowing that they split the signal to run the separate transducers, I have no clue on how to choose and use a crossover.  Additional crossover guidance/info/education would be appreciated.

Although woodworking seems fun and enjoyable, I have no experience and only simple cutting tools. So if I do a kit, I’ll use a premade box.

@pindac : The Panzerholz proved to be extremely attractive in use.

I struggled to find online sources for panzerholz or similar.  Do you know of a source?

@devinplombier : https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/the-1000-budget-build-begins.430013/

Thanks for the link

@kennyc 

Panzerholz is a German product. I think LessLoss Audio used to sell it. 

This thread might interest you.

Bit off topic, but I moved to a new house 2 years ago after 31 years in the old one so I completely empathize with your predicament 

Re Linkwitz, not all kits use the same driver complement as the factory-built ones. There are also significant differences in amplification and electronics. Factory uses analog active crossovers whereas many DIYers use DSP.

devinplombier

Thanks for info on Linkwitz. Madisound and Linkwitz store appear to be slightly different so one needs to do their due diligence before pulling the trigger. 

I've reviewed the plans and made notes of construction changes I'd most likely make. The overall look/appearance would stay the same but how its put together with certain joinery is what is under review.

Building stuff is more about yourself than the project on the table. It will test your patience, push your abilities and see if you're willing to go out on a limb where the branches are thin, but its where the fruit is.

You will invest more time into it than estimated so your endurance will be put to the test and if you can keep your eye on the prize and put out the best product you are capable of.

At the end of the day don't we all want to become better versions of ourselves?  

At the end of the day don't we all want to become better versions of ourselves?

@duramax747 most definitely 😃

I vaguely remember someone on here mentioning cabinets CNC-milled from Panzerholz for a speaker project a while back.

Considering Panzerholz supply issues in the US, I've been wondering whether phenolic-impregnated resin panels like those made by Trespa, Richlite and others might be worth a look.

I would think density is the factor that matters most to audio applications, but I'm more than willing to learn more. Anyway, ask AI and you shall be answered: 

• Panzerholz, also known as synthetic resin compressed wood, is made by bonding beech hardwood veneers with exterior-grade phenolic resin and densifying the panel under high pressure. This process results in a density of up to 1.4 g/cm³ or 1400kg/m³.
• Trespa TopLab, particularly Trespa TopLab PLUS, has a stated density of ≥ 1.35 g/cm³. This density is achieved by using layers of wood-based fibers impregnated with thermosetting resins and a decorative surface, bonded together under high pressure.

Looks like the two products are neck to neck density-wise, which isn't too surprising given the similarities in their construction.

I specced Trespa a couple of times on projects. It mills very well with standard carbide woodworking tools. The cost was very reasonable.

@kennyc Buying Panzerholz in the UK is at the current times quite awkward, it id for the enthusiast wanting a stash like myself, to pick it up from a Supplier when in mainland Europe.

Permali EV6 which is a 50% Compression as a 25mm Finished Board is produced from 50 x delignified tiers of Veneer.

As a Cross Grain Structure this is equivalent to Panzerholz.

The Material that is being looked for is:                                                                                                 Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board @ 1300 - 1400Kg / m3.

I have put links up to these products in the past, there are boards today that have Delignified Veneers of less that 1mm prior to compression 0.6-0.7mm.

As a Cross Grain Construction, these will have approx' 80 Plies to the 25mm Thickness and I class this increase in Plies as superior.

Increased channels for Damping / Dissipation which this materials type is known to be quite improved over many other materials, has potential to be improved over the 50 per 25mm.

I once had access to Damping / Dissipation Data for many materials, I even sent in to the guy producing the data, materials I had an Intertest in, that were not common in use in audio.   

Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board is the killer material.

Heavily Compressed Bamboo 3xPly and Three Way Compressed @ 1100Kg per /m3 has received good reports and I have heard a Garrard 401 with it as the Plinth and that was quite special, especially as I have been an Idler Drive user for a larger period of years and used a 9 Stone Granite Plinth with my own 401.

  REZYWOOD - gefärbtes, stabilisiertes & hochverdichtetes Ahorn Holz | Designholz  

I have seen the measured data for other Phenolic, produced using Paper - Cotton, and D/D Properties were poor in comparison to Densified Wood.

I do recall Compressed Phenolics in general share smillar m/3 weights.

I've suspected that the dignified veneer material is the substance that assists with creating attractive intrinsic to the material D/D Properties. 

Yes the densified woods Permali, Jabroc, Panzerholz are very similar. I have used them all including Festholz. They machine very well but Festholz makes such beautiful parts.

Dial in your feed speed and approach at the correct rpm and you will not have to sand or debur your profile/edges cut when finished. 

This is true whether you have 3mm Pz or 100mm on the table. 

Additionally, Phenolic Plywood Board can be found at approx'900Kg /m3. 

I own a board of this material type. 

These and similar produced boards are not delignified or produced submerged in a high heat Phenolic within a Vacuum Chamber. 

Again other Treatments being used that separated a Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board from other Board Types. 

@bdp24 

"@nogaps: I myself almost bought the GR Research Super V to build. Before that could happen I was introduced to the Eminent Technology LFT-8b, an open baffle/dipole planar-magnetic hybrid loudspeaker (p-m for 180Hz and up, an 8" dynamic woofer in a sealed enclosure for 180Hz down). I’ll provide a link to the review of the LFT-8b by Steve Guttenberg below."

DANG YOU!

I've been listening to a pair of LFT-8b's for a couple hours now. I picked them up this morning.  On a lark, after you mentioned them, I did a quick a search and I'll be darned if a pair of 2017 vintage LFT-8b's weren't for sale in my hometown, just 45 minutes from me.  Price (asking) was very reasonable. He had already sold off his power so I couldn't hear them, but..I took a flyer based on your comments and lots of research I did afterwards.  That's what happens when I have time on my hands.  Humping the Super V assemblies on and off the floor to the bench a few too many times (while building other parts) resulted in a rather sore back for a few days.  So, while resting,  I did some research and one thing lead to another. 

Anyway, I'm still finishing the Super Vs, but in the mean time I'm digging the LFTs, a lot. They have sand-filled Sound Anchor stands too.  I have been listening to a pair of Snell Type As for a number of years. They actually sound surprisingly close to the LFTs in a number of ways. Though the LFTs take things a few steps farther. Very nice speakers.  I'm driving them with a McCormack DNA-1, tube pre, Titan ACI sub, and a streamer. For the cost..these speakers are one of the best deals on the planet. They're lovely. Thx! 

I'll be darned if a pair of 2017 vintage LFT-8b's weren't for sale in my hometown, just 45 minutes

It’s a sign

I'm digging the LFTs, a lot

Congratulations 

@simonmoon, Hi Simon I read with mounting interest that you owned Bagby's Kairos speakers. I design and build speakers and have a friend who asked me to help with assembling the XOs for his pair of Kairos. The components were reasonable quality budget units and the resulting sound I thought excellent and feel they would respond to better quality.  After owning them for 4 years he wanted to upgrade. It' a long story with me now living in a different country and unable to help so he's looking at another kit.

Have you heard the "Bordeaux" speakers that you are building? If I may ask, what would these cost, what lead you to these and in what way are they better? I suggested my friend upgrade the XOs, seal the ports and augment with subs but the nagging suspicion there's something better out there raises it's ugly head.

It's a disease 

Wow @nogaps, a $3500 pair of speakers (with the Sound Anchor stands) for $1450! And no shipping!!

I'm relieved you really like the LFT-8b, I'd feel guilty if you didn't. It's a shame so few people get to hear the speaker, what with Eminent Technology's limited dealer network and zero advertising. Even with all the great reviews the speaker has gotten in print mags, potential LFT-8b owners remain unaware of the speaker, and buy Magnepans instead. For the price of the MG1.7i you can get a pair of the significantly better (imo) ET LFT-8b. Bruce Thigpen really should participate in some hi-fi shows.

I filled my Sound Anchor stands with lead shot, to create a heavy low center-of-gravity for the 5' tall LFT-8. Mye Sound has made his stand design (very popular with Maggie owners) for a couple of LFT-8 owners, and I'm still intent on getting a pair myself.

@bdp24 

I think the retail now is $3900.  I paid $1300 and, given how they sound, that seems nearly free.  I figured at that price I could move them along if they didn't work for me, but, they're not going anywhere, anytime soon. The previous owner drove them with a CJ pre and amp around 70 watts, so they haven't been pushed hard. 

I sent an email to Bruce to ask a couple questions and he got back to me in a few hours.  

After looking at the wood trim on the panels, I think I'm going to make a new set and make them a little wider so the wood stands wider than the grill edge(sort of a visual accent).  Should be very easy, they're just straight sticks of wood. I asked Bruce about the potential width(increased from stock by 1/2 to 3/4 inch) and whether they would negatively impact the sonics.  He said the width would be fine as long as I round the outside edges with a 1/2 round over bit.  I'm considering designs and wood species now.

I had an audio friend over today to hear them and he thought they were amazing.

..and the beat goes on..

The LFT-8b retailed for $2499 when I bought my pair. I ordered them with painted black wood trim rails; I figured I'd be listening to them with the grill cloth/frame removed, and painted black they kind of disappear.

A rough idea of what the re-frame might look like.  The oval on top would probably a carving of some sort.  I'm thinking maybe a walnut / bordeaux wine color dyed cherry mix.

aesthetics is in the eye of the beholder.

Like 'Go Faster' Stripes showing their dominating presence on a Vehicle, creating the sham, this thing in a speed king.

Will the Speaker be improved or any more bearable as an object with or without the intricacies added.    

Like 'Go Faster' Stripes showing their dominating presence on a Vehicle, creating the sham, this thing in a speed king.

@pindac 

When and where I grew up, go-fast stripes were a manufacturer's go-to way to making a humble sedan into a nimble sports machine. That, a pair of fog lights, a displacement bump all the way to an awesome 1300 cc, ridiculous rear-wheel camber and you were set.

Haven't thought about those bestriped family sedans in ages. A few of them were actually legit fast, but most were donkeys in race horse drag.

Kids would swap the stock carb for a double-barrel from the junkyard and claim phenomenal performance increases that existed only in their heads. But the engine would foul plugs and sputter and miss at idle like a real Italian sports car, so there was that.

The more it changes...

@nogaps: One ET LFT-8b owner claims that when he removed the wood trim rail from the top of each speaker, the height of the sound stage increased. I haven’t tried it yet, but diffraction caused by speaker enclosures is a real thing, and can result in the sound stage being "locked" onto the enclosure (rather than floating free of it). If removing the top rail increases image height, it’s possible that removing the side rails may result in increased sound stage width (and improved center fill?).

PBN audio makes several speaker kits Peter makes some nice cabinets

I understand what you’re saying.  I’ve done a fair amount of research and have viewed  a number of Danny’s videos on open baffles, dipoles, baffle width, baffle diffraction..etc. 

As for one owner claiming something...good to be aware of, but lots of folks claim lots of things.  If they all claimed the same thing then there’s a better chance of it actually existing.  With the speaker model being around for 20(?) years, I’d think any tweaks would be pretty well documented by this time.  The top trim piece itself is 1/4 of and inch thick.  The grill tops are slightly (1/16-1/8th inch) higher than the trim piece. The grills are 7/8 of an inch thick.  I’d be pretty surprised if there was any discernible impact of having the trim piece on or off.  If the top trim piece has that much impact, I’d think the grills would have far more as they’re square and hanging off the front of the panel quite a ways. It’s very easy to remove the top trim..two screws into the side trim pieces. The side trim pieces(1 inch deep..same as the metal panel and 3/4 inch wide) can be removed by just a few screws. It would take a phillips screw driver and a couple minutes to remove them. This would be a very easy experiment, if folks were so inclined. 

At some point I’ll be stripping off all the trim when the replacements are ready.  Making the replacements would take about two days if I start with rough lumber and include finishing time. I’ll check how things sound with all the trim off at that time. 

I asked Bruce if adding 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch width to the side rails(such that a little wood trim shows when the grills are on) would have any sonic impacts. He said no impact as long as the outside edges were rounded over with a 1/2 round over bit...which I was planning anyway (same as the appreciable round overs used in the Super V build, or any speaker cab/baffle build).  I also asked him if I could mount new grills with rare earth magnets imbedded in the trim and grill frame. He said that would be ok also.

The top piece as shown above..I realize that may be a stretch with respect to no impact. I’ll mock up a similar piece and try it out before making something more permanent. I may well reduce it’s size when I start building it, depending on how it looks. I’d like to keep the overall streamline appearance. If I notice any impact, then I’ll reduce it to something similar to what’s on the speaker now.  

At some point I’ll be picking up a microphone and doing some testing, but that’ll be after the dust settles with the SV build and new amps are installed. 

@devinplombier More Off Topic

The Local Vehicle Garage I use for maintaining a Vehicle, has a Proprietor who has a keen interest in renovating and modernising Scooters from a vintage era such as  - Vespa - Lambretta Models.

In the UK, Italy and even from China, there are supporting services available that have a strong footing in the activity. There can be found many ways to move these forwards with onboard tech' if sympathetic restoration is not too concerning.

A Three Gear Change Scooter with a Max' Speed of 35 MPH, when entering the market if 50' 70's, is today a Five Gear Change, with over 100 MPH able to be achieved. I am confident 125 MPH was suggested can be attained depending on the engine rebuild selected.

When looking at the Design and those little, I mean little wheels, and knowing these Scooters are able to be used on Public used roads. One can only think anybody extending their MPH beyond 30 MPH has a death wish. 

Man in Mancave comes up with their design for the fastest Scooter ever, and the follow up is a queue of Boys and their Toys wanting in on the act. 

Mind You the fleets of Uber Delivery Workers on Electric Bikes in a City are with a selection of bike owners with modified Electric Bikes, which are easy able to hit 50 MPH, these things are rarely seen pottering along, the usual use makes the bike a  silent assassin, especially with the typical user not caring to stop at a Red Light. Crossing roads is a new skill to be relearned and followed like never before. 

I did hear a significant widening and raising of the soundstage this morning when trying a number of new panel placement angles(off axis rotating away from my listening chair). Very happy with the results.  

..and I think I have a final design, considerably trimmed back from yesterday. Trim is extended from stock by 1/2 inch. With the round-over it'll be effectively less than that. Just enough to show some wood trim around the grills.  But..finishing the SVs comes first.