I am a fan of Chris Sommovigo's Black Cat and Airwave interconnects. I hope he does not mind me quoting him or naming him on this subject, but Chris does not mark directionality of his IC's. I recently wrote him on the subject and he responded that absent shunting off to ground/dialectric designs, the idea of wire directionality is a complete myth. Same with resistors and fuses. My hunch is that 95% of IC "manufacturers", particularly the one man operations of under $500 IC's mark directionality because they think it lends the appearance of technical sophistication and legitimacy. But even among the "big boys", the myth gets thrown around like so much accepted common knowledge. Thoughts? Someone care to educate me on how a simple IC or PC or speaker cable or fuse without a special shunting scheme can possibly have directionality? It was this comment by Stephen Mejias (then of Audioquest and in the context of Herb Reichert's review of the AQ Niagra 1000) that prompts my question;
Thank you for the excellent question. AudioQuest provided an NRG-10 AC cable for the evaluation. Like all AudioQuest cables, our AC cables use solid conductors that are carefully controlled for low-noise directionality. We see this as a benefit for all applications -- one that becomes especially important when discussing our Niagara units. Because our AC cables use conductors that have been properly controlled for low-noise directionality, they complement the Niagara System’s patented Ground-Noise Dissipation Technology. Other AC cables would work, but may or may not allow the Niagara to reach its full potential. If you'd like more information on our use of directionality to minimize the harmful effects of high-frequency noise, please visit http://www.audioquest.com/directionality-its-all-about-noise/ or the Niagara 1000's owner's manual (available on our website).
Koestner, you raise very logical questions. And as usual, the responses and citations provided by Jim (Jea48) are correct. The key to reconciling his comments and yours is that while AC current of course alternates direction, the transfer of energy that is intimately associated with that current is in one direction, from the source of that energy to whatever load it is connected to.
(In saying this, though, I’m putting aside reflection effects that occur at high frequencies, as I described earlier in relation to a digital cable. To at least a small degree reflection effects do in fact cause energy to be transferred in both directions, and to at least a small degree cause energy to be absorbed by the source of that energy, as well as by the load. And I’m also putting aside the fact that to the extent a load is capacitive or inductive, as opposed to being purely resistive, it cannot consume energy, although it can store it).
Regarding the underlying question, IMO the Audioquest statement on directionality Jim cited earlier amounts to the least implausible explanation of intrinsic wire directionality I have seen. It should be understood, though, that by its nature the noise effects that are referred to in that explanation will be highly system dependent and even location dependent. And as with many effects involving noise, it will not have much if any predictability. Also, as with many other explanations that are proferred for controversial audio effects, a basic problem is that this explanation doesn’t lend itself to being analyzed in a quantitative manner, that would provide a perspective on whether it does or does not have a reasonable possibility of being audibly significant in some or many systems. With further complication being added by the fact that it is extremely easy in audio to attribute perceived effects to the wrong variable, as illustrated by the example of a digital cable that I discussed earlier, and as illustrated more extensively in the recent thread on fuse directionality.
When it is not possible or practical to obtain a quantitative perspective on explanations that may be offered for a claimed effect, there is virtually no limit to the explanations that can be conjured up and asserted, rightly or wrongly.
In saying all of this, btw, I take no position on the possibility that wire may be intrinsically directional in some systems, to at least a small degree. (And I’m referring here to wire as used in cables, as opposed to the vastly shorter lengths that are used in fuses, whose alleged intrinsic directionality would be swamped by whatever directionality the vastly longer associated wiring may have). But personally I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it. And contrary to one of the comments Geoff made earlier, I certainly wouldn’t avoid the use of balanced cables on the basis of this possibility.
The speaker transducer moves forward and backward according to EMF acting on the voice coil - see Faraday’s law and Maxwells equations - so both +ve and -ve current direction along the speaker wire causes transducer movement.
A wire with directional properties would be a disaster for reproducing accurate audio. So Audioquest marketing mumbo jumbo is obviously just mumbo jumbo - Otherwise their products would not work .
But Al, the question does not hinge on whether you think the effect is subtle or whether you would lose any sleep over it. Once again you seem to be arguing just to argue. As with your customary assertion, "well, maybe there is some directionality in wire." It doesn’t matter whether you think it might be too subtle for you to hear. Many audiophiles hear directionality very distinctly. But like anything audio related, the effects vary. For example, the effect of reversing one of many fuses will be masked by the fact some of the other fuses are still in the wrong direction. Obviously there will always be a couple of folks who can’t hear it at all. C’est la vie.
As I’m sure you realize, both the fast moving energy and the slow moving current (defined as electron movement) are amplified by a power amplifier. And while it is the energy that propagates at near light speed that is responsible for what is heard, in the case of electrical signals that are being conducted through wires the near light speed propagation of that energy (in essentially one direction) and the very slow back and forth movement of individual electrons are intimately related, and neither would exist without the other.
As to costs, well
enough to filter out the improve non sense! It's free and firing up Geo
does provide me with amusement! If cost something to post, the Facebook
audiogon would disappear! And a got a hundred Geo is going to bust my
chops on this!
OK- the idea that a simple bit of wire is directional is of course nonsense. Interconnect cables can be directional, depending on how their grounds are constructed. So I think you and I are on the same page.
The problem I see with threads like this is that someone asks a question and really legitimately wants to know the answer, and then a known fraud jumps in, berates anyone who disagrees with him and his quantum pebbles, and pretty much hijacks the thread. Once the thread degrades in this fashion I usually bail on it as it just goes to nonsense. The thing is, it happens so often that I really think we should say something to management. Guaranteed if we don't nothing will happen.
The way I see it is we're all looking at this in a classical way, but when dealing with EM fields that propagate at the speed of light in their respective mediums, it's more like relativistic effects. We think the signal is traveling down the wire like a tire tube in a lazy river. When in reality it's at the speaker the same time as it exits the transistor output. The changing direction of the DC signal 20-20,000 times per second is painfully slow compared to the instantaneous speed of the forming and collapsing field. So it may be better to think of having your speaker directly connected to the transistor's output instead of picturing this "wave" making its way down the wire. We all lay out this "fire hose" cable to make the trip easier for the signal, when it's really at your speaker the moment your source reads it.
OK, so after reading this a few times I see it makes little sense, but I'm sending it anyway. Let's just keep in mind that in our houses the speed of light is the closest thing to "instant".
Stfoth, for what it's worth I spent a bit more than three decades designing and managing design of high tech electronics for use in military aircraft, and in my experience the issue of wire directionality was never even mentioned, much less addressed in some manner.
almarg Stfoth, for what it’s worth I spent a bit more than three decades designing and managing design of high tech electronics for use in military aircraft, and in my experience the issue of wire directionality was never even mentioned, much less addressed in some manner. Regards, -- Al
Gold Star for the best Appeal to Authority so far this week. ⭐️. I also like the logic of, it was never mentioned so it must not exist. Terrific example of a logical fallacy, much appreciated!
Geoff, the gentleman asked a question, and I responded by stating a fact. It was neither an appeal to authority nor a statement that involved logic, fallacious or otherwise.
koestner Put me in the camp with those that can hear when some ICs or speaker cables are reversed. (Those using solid core wire). Is the difference huge? NO. Subtle? Yes. But enough so, I prefer the direction that sounds best to my ears. As always, YMMV.
Which raises another question. If one buys into the proposition that unshielded solid core cables are directional does that necessarily mean stranded cables are also directional? Extra credit: if fuses in AC circuits are directional does that mean power cords are also directional? Even though most power cords comprise stranded conductors. .
almarg Geoff, the gentleman asked a question, and I responded by stating a fact. It was neither an appeal to authority nor a statement that involved logic, fallacious or otherwise.
Regards, -- Al
>>>>>Of course it’s a logical fallacy. No one ever suggested that wire directionality was evident anywhere except in the audio hobby. So to state that it was never discussed in your high tech/digital workplace sounds a little bit like you’re actually trying to say, since no one ever discussed it in high tech or computers or NASA then it doesn’t exist, therefore audiophiles must be delusional. I.e., some guys with big foreheads somewhere would have found evidence of it. It’s obviously a Strawman Argument, in other words a *logical fallacy*. Is it just coincidence that it was YOU who responded to his question?
stfoth Geoff--how about audible directionality in glass optical "cable?"
I wouldn't think so. I pointed out recently on this thread that cables like those that employ carbon conductors shouldn't exhibit directionality. Since glass is homogeneous it should not exhibit directionality. Metal conductors, you know, like copper, silver and gold, etc. have crystal structures and thus are not amorphous, especially after the metal wires have been drawn.
Hmmmm, I wonder...are skeptics of wire and fuse directionality also skeptical of other controversial tweaks? Or is it just wire and fuse directionality that irks them? In addition one wonders if these skeptics are full time skeptics or just "weekend skeptics." Do the fuse skeptics accept, for example, the Warren Commission Report on the assassination of JFK, you know, something that’s obviously controversial, and obviously of more import than a little old audiophile fuse? Or the 9/11 Final Report which also is controversial and of much greater import than mere fuses.
sthoth, In answer to your question as to why cables and fuses are always harped about but not speakers and amps and what have you is that they seem to get a pass nowadays but that wasn’t always the case.
Those in the know used to harp about how all a speaker needs to be is this and all an amp needs to be is that and so on, because, measurements. There have always been various opposing camps on them but the dust seems to have settled on those debates and it’s all chalked up nowadays to preference.
It won’t be long before wire and fuse debates die off due to (long overdue) natural causes, and deservedly so.
jea48 Can’t speak for stranded wire. (There in multiple strands of uninsulated wires grouped together under a common insulating covering). I do not have any personal listening experience with stranded wire. I can only speak for solid core wire.
Well, of course wire directionality wouldn’t show up anywhere except among audiophiles because wire directionality is really defined as the reason wires, cables and fuses SOUND better in one direction than the other. SOUND better in the artistic or sensual or subjective sense. It’s an audiophile thang! Hel-loo! Clever Little Clocks, green pens, Schumann frequency generators, tiny little bowl resonators, crystals for damping -- none of those things are discussed at NASA or Boeing or Lockheed Martin or computer labs, or (whisper)...the Government... either. Gee, I wonder why not.
Doesn't Audioquest make stranded cables? To make them directional, they have to keep track of the direction of each single strand, all throughout the assembly of each cable. Wow, that can't be easy.
bdp24 Doesn’t Audioquest make stranded cables? To make them directional, they have to keep track of the direction of each single strand, all throughout the assembly of each cable. Wow, that can’t be easy.
I don’t think it would be too difficult. You just need a plan. Just like you need a plan for unstranded solid core cables, and a plan for cables with multiple insulated solid core conductors. It’s not rocket science. You can establish correct direction of the tiny wire, or any wire, by measuring resistance of a length of wire as it comes off the giant spool. Case solved!
Sorry to see that common sense is all but absent on Audiogon because of those who work so hard to maintain and propagate myths.
The onus is on those with wild claims to prove via repeatable measurements that their weird and uniquely bizarre phenomena actually exist - especially when nobody outside of a few audio wing nuts swear by these new phenomena.
Science does not have to disprove every wacky claim / it is the responsibility of those with the extreme wacky claims to provide proof that their claims are not bogus errors or imaginations run wild or just made up anecdotal BS.
Exactly. Whatever experience that can be measured repeatedly and independently becomes accepted verifiable fact. What cannot or has not been successfully measured repeatedly and independently is in the realm of conjecture or hypothesis or "marketing hype" or "unsubstantiated claims".
There is a big difference in how much credibility one should really give to conjecture especially wild claims that are not easily verified.
For example, "man-made global warming" is conjecture and a hypothesis that is currently impossible to verify - we don’t know what component is natural variation and what might be man-made - we do know that natural variation can be colossal compared to what is conjectured that man might cause - so the theory has NOT been proven a fact although it is a surprisingly widely held belief. Quite a lot of widely held beliefs fit this category and it is often hard to distinguish fact from conjecture - our media and Internet forums certainly do not help.
Ok, so for an interesting read, I have attached a link to a bulletin from the Michigan College of Mining and Technology....folks who should know a thing or two about copper, because they've seen a thing or two. The Bulletin is
from 1936 and is titled, "A Correlation of the Tensile Strength and Electrical Conductivity of Hard-Drawn Copper Wire with Preferred Orientation."
In short, they test a bunch of samples by cold drawing them in one direction, in alternate/reversed directions, and in two other patterns of drawing one way and the other. They concluded that cold-drawing copper wire creates a preferred orientation of unit cells in the core. However, the conductivity decreased with more frequent reversals of the drawing direction. Actual variations appeared to be on the order of about 0.20 percent and the differences in drawing were found not to affect the conductivity of annealed wire. Annealing the copper wire after cold-drawing increases the conductivity.
My take on the bulletin is that the authors determined there are indeed surface and cell differences that can occur based on how copper wire is processed. These differences can be observed by x-ray spectroscopic examination (and possibly electron microscopy?) and can cause very small variations in conductivity that could conceivably be construed as directional differences. However, the differences are erased when the wire is annealed, which is a process applied to all (almost all?) the wire we use. In any event, even for non-annealed wire, the differences measured were so small that it would be hard to imagine that somebody could discern a sonic difference in music played through a home audio system due to the wire direction or drawing process.
Does anyone here know of other scientific papers about wire directionality/conductivity relative to processing, from authors without a dog in the fight (i.e., from anyone other than a cable manufacturer or their surrogates)?
Re 1936 Michigan Study on wire directionality vs conductivity. Quick synopsis: Old news and contributes little to what we know. We already know that the measured differences in wire conductivity are quite small from the fuse measurement data on the HiFi Tuning website. We also know that the small differences don’t really seem to completely account for the (relatively larger) sonic differences the folks at HiFi Tuning heard when flipping fuses; in fact they - HiFi Tuning -acknowledge that apparent discrepancy in the data sheets. Nevertheless there are measured differences in resistance/conductivity. If wire wasn’t directional wouldn’t one expect no differences at all? Remember, the whole issue is SOUND QUALITY. So wouldn’t it make more sense if skeptics, in order to be more thorough and get to the bottom of this, actually performanced their own LISTENING TESTS? The hallmark of real skepticism is the curiosity and desire to experiment and test for one’s self.
"Exactly. Whatever experience that can be measured repeatedly and independently becomes accepted verifiable fact. What cannot or has not been successfully measured repeatedly and independently is in the realm of conjecture or hypothesis or 'marketing hype' or 'unsubstantiated claims'."
Agreed, all except that this leaves no possible room for personal observation. Yes, anyone can come forward and falsify an observation, but that is merely a complication of truth, not an elimination of it...simply because a false claim can exist does not mean that therefore a True claim Cannot exist.
What you claim in the above is essentially a denial of truth itself. Any verification of truth can potentially and legitimately originate from an observation. Without being granted that possible avenue of acceptance, the truth (according to what you said) is blocked from from ever becoming recognized.
That's a complete denial of the scientific method...which always begins with an observation, btw.
In the above I neglected to quote your entire post actually, sorry about that.
What I’m saying is that being paralyzed by the fact that there may be false claims afoot, in any circumstance, is essentially a form of hysteria. In that case, as you point out, Nothing can be trusted...not even our own instincts to arrive at the truth for ourselves...!
Let’s clear up one thing. The accusation of hype and unsubstantiated claims is a common pseudo skeptic ploy but be aware there’s actually nothing wrong with marketing one’s product, even using hyperbole or what Judge Judy refers to as puffing. You know, like World’s Best Coffee. Or, "you will hear things in your records you never realized were there."
Audio manufacturers, perhaps in particular tweak manufacturers, are under NO OBLIGATION to reveal measurements or method of operation or prove the operation of their products. That they are under any such obligation is an old wives’ tale perpetrated by naysayers and pseudo skeptics who employ that tactic all the time as if it means something, like bringing up controlled bind tests as if some device or tweak under would be proven a hoax if it were subjected to controlled blind tests.
Getting back to reality, the manufacturer might not know how his particular product works. Or he may wish to keep the information under his vest. In fact, as I just pointed out earlier, HiFi Tuning admits perhaps even a little sheepishly 🐑 🐑 on their web site that measured data of fuses doesn’t really completely explain the relatively large differences heard in listening tests. Hel-loo! But at least they tried. You know, unlike pseudo skeptics.
True enough. Caveat emptor. Wouldn't have it any other way, myself.
I was only trying to focus on the theory 'apart from fact' in an effort to get a sense of what is in the minds of those who believe things like wire directionality might be real....or maybe I should say 'theory "apart from established fact"...or is it "apart from already established fact"??....or "the most familiar already established universally accepted fact"???....or whatever level of truth needs to be met - sometimes that makes my head hurt.
I myself have heard the directionality effect a few times over the last few years. Sometimes I've heard it when I didn't expect to. Sometimes I didn't hear it when I was expecting to. But, when on those (few) occasions that I did repeatedly hear it, most often I heard it a little more plainly with fuses than with wire in my setup.
Oddly, I can no longer hear the effect under my roof. I've been steadily acquiring more and more electronic noise reduction gear (quantum based) from Alan Maher Designs since coming across that site in 2010. Slowly since then the effect has started growing noticeably weaker as my system improved in sound and performance. Now I can switch out seemingly any wire or fuse and even while hearing an improvement or at least change in sound vs the original wire or fuse, I no longer can audibly detect any delta from directionality, no matter what the test. As if the rest of my system's performance has improved to the point as to 'swallow up' the differences, perhaps??...not really sure... I do know all the "hifi-ness" is gone...almost as if directionality and hifi-ness were somehow being 'bouyed up by electrical noise' as it were.
I can't explain or account for why that would be the case, I just know that it is.
I do recall a Mapleshade digital IC I bought (very affordable) that came with instructions that warned of intermittent audio (dropouts!) if connected in the wrong direction. And sure enough it was true! Now That's a directionality effect Anyone could hear!
Ivan, I don’t know which Alan Maher products are giving you conniptions but if they are crystal based devices then one thing you might try, since crystals should really be "reconditioned" periodically as they lose effectiveness over time and get all like gnarly. They could hurt the sound if placed in non-ideal locations. So, if there are crystals inside remove them and do any or all of the following: wash them for 2 minutes under cold tap water, Demagnetize them using any type of demagnetizer, roll them around and squeeze them in the palms of your hands for 2 minutes, expose them to direct bright sunlight for 2 hours. 🌞
1: Every component you have has been designed using measurements.
2: Any changes to the sound the designer needed to make was done using measurements then listened to.
3: There is no voodoo in designing equipment by any designer of any component you have in your system.
Cheers George
>>>>Well, yes and no. For example John Curl and Bob Crump had a process for amplifier and preamplifier development which was essentially John would design the circuits, the third individual Thompson did the topology, then, now get this, Bob Crump would try different brands of capacitors (that all had the same value and precision!) for example or volume control pots or whatever and pick the one that sounds best. So, obviously, it's not all about measurements. Not at all! Stop following the wrong sheep! 🐏 🐏 🐏 🐏 🚶
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