This reminds me. I haven't been able to find the correct green color magic marker for my CD's, nor a $650 wood volume knob.
Direction of aftermarket fuses (only for believers!)
It is with reluctance that I start another thread on this topic with the ONLY GOAL for believers to share their experience about aftermarket fuses.
To others: you can call us snobs, emperors w/o clothes,... etc but I hope you refrain posting just your opinion here. If you did not hear any difference, great, maybe there isn’t.
The main driver for this new post is that I am starting a project to mod my NAD M25 7 ch amp for my home theater. It has 19 fuses (2 per channel, 4 on the power supply board, 1 main AC) and I will try a mix of AMR Gold, SR Black and Audio Magic Platinum (anyway that is the plan, I may try out some other brands/models). As it is reasonably difficult to change them, esp the ones on each channel module that requires complete disassembly, I would like to know what the direction is for these models mentioned and of course, others who HAVE HEARD there is a difference please share your experience on any fuse model you have tried.
Fuses are IME directional:
Isoclean is one of the first to indicate the direction (2008/2009) on their fuses. Users of HiFi Tuning (when the awareness rose quite a bit amongst audiophiles) have mostly heard the difference.
As an IEEE engineer, I was highly skeptical of cabling decades ago (I like the speaker design of John Dunlavy but he said on many occasions that cables nor footers matter at all, WRONG!). Luckily, my curiosity proved me wrong as well. I see the same skepticism that I and many others had about the need for aftermarket cables many, many years ago now on fuses and esp on the direction on fuses.
Another example is the direction of capacitors (I do not mean electrolytic types). Even some manufacturers now and certainly many in the past did not believe it can make a difference sonically. Maybe some do but it takes time in the assembly to sort and put them in the right direction/order (esp as some of the cap manufacturers still do not indicate "polarity") so that maybe is one argument why this is not universally implemented.
To others: you can call us snobs, emperors w/o clothes,... etc but I hope you refrain posting just your opinion here. If you did not hear any difference, great, maybe there isn’t.
The main driver for this new post is that I am starting a project to mod my NAD M25 7 ch amp for my home theater. It has 19 fuses (2 per channel, 4 on the power supply board, 1 main AC) and I will try a mix of AMR Gold, SR Black and Audio Magic Platinum (anyway that is the plan, I may try out some other brands/models). As it is reasonably difficult to change them, esp the ones on each channel module that requires complete disassembly, I would like to know what the direction is for these models mentioned and of course, others who HAVE HEARD there is a difference please share your experience on any fuse model you have tried.
Fuses are IME directional:
Isoclean is one of the first to indicate the direction (2008/2009) on their fuses. Users of HiFi Tuning (when the awareness rose quite a bit amongst audiophiles) have mostly heard the difference.
As an IEEE engineer, I was highly skeptical of cabling decades ago (I like the speaker design of John Dunlavy but he said on many occasions that cables nor footers matter at all, WRONG!). Luckily, my curiosity proved me wrong as well. I see the same skepticism that I and many others had about the need for aftermarket cables many, many years ago now on fuses and esp on the direction on fuses.
Another example is the direction of capacitors (I do not mean electrolytic types). Even some manufacturers now and certainly many in the past did not believe it can make a difference sonically. Maybe some do but it takes time in the assembly to sort and put them in the right direction/order (esp as some of the cap manufacturers still do not indicate "polarity") so that maybe is one argument why this is not universally implemented.
233 responses Add your response
Jazzonthehudson 4-29-2016Well, it seems safe to say that he is using the terminology in, um, a creative manner. FYI I was part of the AP/MTT chapter and worked for a large telecom equipment manufacturer so no high voltage experience. I did had fun with Microwave oven trafo powered arcing in labs though...Cool! To clarify for others, AP/MTT refers to an IEEE Chapter on Antennas & Propagation/Microwave Theory & Techniques. I was never active in any IEEE Chapters; never had the time. Best regards, -- Al |
Al wrote, "Cool! To clarify for others, AP/MTT refers to an IEEE Chapter on Antennas & Propagation/Microwave Theory & Techniques." Hey, whaddya know? I was in antennas and propagation for quite a while. ELF, HF, UHF, EHF, strategic communications, MILSATCOM, that sort of thing. Spread Spectrum a plus. |
Madness! it's all Madness! No one ever talks about the human ear. You would have to be a mechanical robot with everything electrically perfect, to detect any difference in a response of frequencies reproduced from a speaker. by changing a fuse, let alone wax in a fuse! I think wax in your ear would be a better clinical trial for sound differences. 95% of people cannot even hear the full audio spectrum of 20 20.000 Hz let alone fuse direction, which incidentally makes absolutely ZERO difference. Next thing I will hear is fuses made of gold retailing for 5K is what you need for your Amp. Madness! But I guess when the neighbor next door comes over, you know the one, the poor slob that has a Radio Shack sound system, and you're sporting your Krell knockout ultra spectacular Power Amp, coupled with your mind boggling Martin Logan reproducers. You can boost! I have gold fuses pointed in the right direction, and hey! can't you tell the difference from your puny Radio Shack job? Madness! |
Charles1dad wrote, "Hi Jazz, It's very possible that there could be some degree of marketing hype involved, it wouldn't be the first time for an audio product. That's why I try to keep it simple, I just listen to a product and form an impression based solely on what I hear." I would probably not call it marketing hype. I'd call it good marketing. The whole idea is too catch people's attention, no? Let me give you an example. I call my tourmaline anti static gun product a Particle Accelerator. Is that wrong? Geoff Kait machina dynamica advanced audio concepts |
Thanks for the link to the ton of threads on AA on the dodgy subject of fuse directionality. One thing I see that’s fascinating is that posts on fuse directionality go back at least as far as 2001. So if my math’s right people have been crabbing about aftermarket fuses and directionality for at least 15 years ago. |
Great feedback, keep them flowing and thanks for the link jea48! Maybe i should spend more time at AA, people there seems pretty open minded. No snide comments, no declaration of insanity. Thanks auxinput for a great assessment of what would fit and bringing up the Furutech fuse, it was on my mind last year that slipped off my list. Since it is just "home theater" or my 2nd system, I have put a limit of $75 per fuse/$ 150 board for the main channels, so the Furutech seems to be a great contender. I have a NordOst Valhalla power cord to inject speed and transparency into the NAD pre, the NAD M25 is currently fed by a HiDiamond P4, possibly superseded by the Cerious Technologies Graphane Extreme (awaiting feedback on another thread). I have already bought the SR Black for the main fuse, upgrading from the SR Red. For my DAC (PSA DSD), my favorites are Audio Magic BeeWax and Audio Horizon Platinum, the Platinum has better midrange whereas the BeeWax is extremely well balanced. I have the AM nano liquid a long time ago in my CJ 140 mono blocks, upgraded them with HiFi Tuning Supreme first (the other variants of HiFi Tuning all have too many deficiencies), then SR Red. For my HT and library system, I used to have Isoclean fuses, before they were upgraded. Unrelated to fuses since this has been brought it up: About using superlatives in one’s product description. Ted Denney has earned a great deal of skepticism and still comes up every time with promises close to live-changing experiences in audio. His HFTs, pretty popular, got a revision not long after the release (HFT V2) and now he proclaims the new UEF dots are the new gold standard. GK, the audiophile world has a good memory. I have been using SR power cables and have abandoned them because every 6 months the king died, long live the new king! I get there is R&D (I doubt there is really that much R&D at SR, maybe marketing R&D as a lot of Ted’s three letter gimmick are rehashed gadgets) but is not it coincidental (for the top line of his company) that SR product releases are so predictable and constantly short? Lastly, people listen to people they like and buy from people they like (hel-loo!). There are plenty great examples (Lew @CJ , Peter @Symposium, Jim @PAD, John @Audience, Dave@StarSound, Chris @VHAudio, ...etc). |
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auxinput: A wonderful description and suggestions for best possible placement of fuses. I have the fuses you have nicely described (except for the audio magic brands). My three systems are all tube amp based, two use Marantz SACD players, and one uses an Antelope DAC. So for me the best results have been with the Synergistic Research Black fuse and in the horn based system I also had nice results with the SR 20 fuse. The Isoclean fuse was too warm and slow- but better than stock. The Furutech fuse imparted a thinness that was my least favorite. But I want to emphasize that all these fuses are better than stock. All these fuses have a different sound depending on which direction they are installed. The sonic changes are greater in magnitude than tube rolling. A synergistic Black fuse had a greater effect than putting in the Elrog 845 tubes (versus the already nice Psvane WE 845 tubes). And a lot less money ! I am a huge fan of audio companies that offer a 30 trial with refund. No "restocking fee", no "obtaining a RAF number", no hassle, no bull. This return policy is why I am a big fan of the Synergistic Research fuse line. Try a SR-20 or a Black fuse (or both) learn from the changes you hear and return anything that does not make you happy. David Pritchard |
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Jeff, simply on Fleabay. I bought them first from Darren (AMR distributor) before but was pleased to find them this year elsewhere. As other mentioned, not great (compared to the current line up) but certainly better than stock. David, you may want to compare the SR Black with the AM BeeWax, given the level of resolution of your system. -Charles |
jea48 2,039 posts 05-03-2016 11:09am geoffkait said: Let’s see, should I use a non UL rated fuse and get better sound or use UL rated fuse and get worse sound? What to do, what to do? lol Hell, why stop there. The equipment will probably sound even better bypassing the fuse/s and fuse clips all together. In fact while you’re at it bypass the branch circuit breaker in the electrical panel and tie the hot of the branch circuit ahead of the main breaker. After all the fewer the electrical connections, the better. lol Of course I was not suggesting any such thing as bypassing fuses or fuse clips. The debate here is whether the fuse must be UL listed or not. Just because you can come up with some screwball example such as bypassing fuses doesn’t actually prove anything. And in view of the fact that aftermarket fuses, even when not UL rated, are in fact safe you’d have to be pretty hardheaded not to use them. tootles |
geoffkait said: NO, what is at issue here is if an audio grade fuse, that is being sold to the unknowing consumer, has been tested and listed by any third party testing laboratory. Period! |
Jea48 wrote, "geoffkait said: "The debate here is whether the fuse must be UL listed or not." NO, what is at issue here is if an audio grade fuse, that is being sold to the unknowing consumer, has been tested and listed by any third party testing laboratory. Period!" Huh? There is no obligation or requirement for third party testing. Nor is there any requirement for UL listing. There are not even any such requirements for audiophile amplifiers. Hel-loo, End of story. geoff kait machina dynamica |
Obligation? Requirement? Where in any of my posts do I say it is required? I have said in other posts on this forum and probably on AA you have a problem understanding what you read. I don’t know it if medical problem or what. I could care less what your problem is. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jea48 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 05-02-2016 2:54pm
jea48 responded: Just make sure what ever you buy is UL listed or at least safety tested and Listed by a recognized third party testing laboratory. FYI, drilling a hole in an already UL Listed fuse and then filling it with any type of foreign substance voids the UL Listing of the fuse. The fuse is no longer a Listed fuse. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
Jea48, if you’re trying to convince me you don’t understand plain English you’re doing an excellent job. There is no advantage to a UL listed fuse. Haven’t you been following the discussion? And nobody ever suggested that drilling a hole in a fuse would not negate the UL listing. But what I’m saying is, so what? A recognized third party testing lab? That's very funny! |
UL in the US (VDE in Germany is a very well respected organization) have drawn up standards for low-voltage fuses (e.g. UL Standard 248-x). Besides adhering to low variance in expected values like breaking range, arc time & temperature, cut-off current, every part (body, fuse dial gauge, end caps, filling material,...) must lie within well-defined specs and even the process of fabrication is scrutinized. Those standards can be purchased from UL. We're of course talking about UL certification which is a must for consumer goods, mostly done by independent labs who got their accreditation from UL. For those who really know what they are into (and willing to take the risk), drilling into fuses is like riding a bike w/o hands, it can be fun but not recommended if you are prudent. Sometimes I like skydiving! Bypassing fuses is not an unknown alternative and practiced by quite a few, even (small shop) manufacturers and I know at least two of them very well. Still, I like the presence of a great fuse, IME the SQ is better. |
Not sure how to comment on your last entry stevecham: 1. ) If I had not a limited budget, I would probably have selected something in the price range like SR Black. I have so I aim to increase the music listening experience in my HT, hence the emphasis on L+R. BTW, in Home Theater setups, if you have noticed, people have different speakers and furthermore, if you have read up more on DIY, you would see people using different bypass caps for different drivers (in the same speaker). 2.) It is not uncommon that HT setups have one amp for the L, R, C and another for the surround channels. This is an exercise to improve the sound in my second system, not one in statistics. |
geoffkrait Ignorance is bliss. Google can be your friend. Two freebies, no charge..... Quote:
A Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL) is a third-party organisation that certifies products for the North American market. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quote:
Types of Full Certification: See page 15.
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That’s all really interesting Jea48 but what’s it have to do with audio or audiophile products? Everyone knows there is *such a thing* as third party testing, in fact I was involved at one time with third party testing for VERY big projects, you know Government and Military projects. But the challenge to you was produce any case of an *audio product* that required or third party testing. And you couldn’t. In fact you didn't understand what the bet was. So I win. |
I was certainly a skeptic years ago, when I first tried the old Hi-Fi tuning fuses. Of course, I never expected that they would turn a $20K system into a $50K one and I was not disillusioned: they didn't . But they did make an audible -- and much more significant -- difference than I ever expected they would and I still have them in my equipment today. |
infection wrote, ""...the higher the resolution and the quality of the components that are involved, the greater the benefits fuse upgrades are likely to provide." Forsooth." I hate to make snap judgements but I’m pretty sure there’s no such thing as an audiophile who believes his system is not one of those highly resolving ones. Really, really highly resolving. Especially if they’ve been an audiophile for 40 years. |
Somehow this thread turns into, similar to some other threads, to the roast of GK...I wonder why... Maybe I am not qualified to issue the above statement but I know for one that Ralph (atmasphere) is a competent designer and very knowledgeable person, truly willing to help fellow audiophiles. Back to fuses: after retesting in different systems (DAC and power amp), I have come to conclusion that the SR Red, whilst very good and indeed way better than SR 20, HiFiTuning Premium, does not provide the best of details/texture whilst the Audio Magic Platinum (direction same as SR although I am not sure they are labeled consistently due to the hand made, lower production rate) provide nearly everything that the SR Red does but sounds with more complex texture, organic and more detailed. Vocals and strings simply sound gorgeous! |
Lots of Fuses reviewed here and some I haven't heard of. Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of the ones not discussed here? And, if so, how they compare? All the best, Nonoise |
Infection 5-12-2016Although you omitted the first part of my sentence that you quoted. The full sentence (see my post dated 4-28-2016 on page 1 of this thread) was: Many of those who have extolled the virtues of the fuse upgrades that have been discussed in the other recent threads have expressed the opinion that the higher the resolution and the quality of the components that are involved, the greater the benefits fuse upgrades are likely to provide.So I was citing the opinions of others, who are experienced with fuse upgrades, which I am not. Also, I have pointed out in many prior threads on various topics that the sonic quality of a system, and its ability to resolve musical detail, do not necessarily go hand in hand with the ability of the system to resolve hardware differences, contrary to what many audiophiles seem to believe. Just to mention one example among countless others that could be cited, lower speaker impedance will tend to make a speaker more resolving of amplifier differences and speaker cable differences, while not necessarily resulting in the speaker being an intrinsically better sonic performer than one having higher impedance. In this particular case, however, and despite the additional fact that I have often emphasized the considerably less than perfect correlation between price and performance in audio, I did feel that there was a substantial chance that the cited opinions could be applicable. As what was being considered was a relatively expensive upgrade of 19 fuses in an amplifier providing **seven** channels of fairly high powered amplification, but which cost just $2500 to $3000 ten years ago. I hope that clarifies the thinking behind my comment that you quoted. Regards, -- Al |
nonoise 2,176 posts 05-12-2016 9:10pm "Lots of Fuses reviewed here and some I haven’t heard of. Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of the ones not discussed here? And, if so, how they compare?" Excellent question. It would be an interesting undertaking (no pun intended) to compare say the top five contenders, HiFi Tuning, SR Black, Audio Magic Beeswax fuse, Audio Horizons, Isoclean. Maybe I missed one or two. Anyway, in order to evaluate the fuses properly so that the results are somewhat credible, each fuse would have to be broken in, then it’s correct direction determined. Thus for five fuses I estimate about what 6 months to a year? One assumes the evaluator would have to resign himself to listening to fuses break in for all that time. The only good news is that after all the fuses are broken in it should be an easy task to evaluate them. Cheers |
Thanks Geoff but that does sound daunting. If anyone cares to look at my above post there's a link at the beginning of the first sentence that's partially obscured by the blue background. In it, is a short review on about 11 fuses and how they sound to the reviewer. The fuse I'm curious about is the PADIS fuse. They are UL listed as well as having PSE and SEMKO certification. They're made in Germany and for one purpose only: audio. They also make fuses for another "audio" brand (looks like Furutech) and retail for about $25. You can get these Padis fuses on ebay. The price seems very reasonable and they don't garner the hype and ensuing controversy that other fused have endured and seem to meet and exceed all the criteria of the naysayers. Does anyone here have any experience with this brand? All the best, Nonoise |
