Direction of aftermarket fuses (only for believers!)

jazzonthehudson,

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/search.mpl?forum=tweaks&searchtext=fuse+direction

geoffkait said:
Let’s see, should I use a non UL rated fuse and get better sound or use UL rated fuse and get worse sound? What to do, what to do?

lol

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jea48 responded:
Hell, why stop there. The equipment will probably sound even better bypassing the fuse/s and fuse clips all together.

In fact while you’re at it bypass the branch circuit breaker in the electrical panel and tie the hot of the branch circuit ahead of the main breaker. After all the fewer the electrical connections, the better.

lol

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geoffkait responed:
Of course I was not suggesting any such thing as bypassing fuses or fuse clips. The debate here is whether the fuse must be UL listed or not. Just because you can come up with some screwball example such as bypassing fuses doesn’t actually prove anything. And in view of the fact that aftermarket fuses, even when not UL rated, are in fact safe you’d have to be pretty hardheaded not to use them.

tootles

geoffkait said:
"The debate here is whether the fuse must be UL listed or not."

NO, what is at issue here is if an audio grade fuse, that is being sold to the unknowing consumer, has been tested and listed by any third party testing laboratory. Period!

A recognized third party testing lab? That’s very funny!

Give me me one example, Mr. Smartypants.  Bet ya can't.

Jea48 wrote,

"geoffkait said:
"The debate here is whether the fuse must be UL listed or not."

NO, what is at issue here is if an audio grade fuse, that is being sold to the unknowing consumer, has been tested and listed by any third party testing laboratory. Period!"

Huh? There is no obligation or requirement for third party testing. Nor is there any requirement for UL listing. There are not even any such requirements for audiophile amplifiers. Hel-loo, End of story.

geoff kait
machina dynamica

Obligation? Requirement? Where in any of my posts do I say it is required?

I have said in other posts on this forum and probably on AA you have a problem understanding what you read. I don’t know it if medical problem or what. I could care less what your problem is.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

jea48 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 05-02-2016 2:54pm

Update: Reading up on comments on after market fuses, I have decided to try the following setup:
Furutech for L, R, C channel
N/C for other channels
AMR for the power supply board
AH Platinum for the main AC

jea48 responded:

Just make sure what ever you buy is UL listed or at least safety tested and Listed by a recognized third party testing laboratory.

FYI, drilling a hole in an already UL Listed fuse and then filling it with any type of foreign substance voids the UL Listing of the fuse. The fuse is no longer a Listed fuse.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

geoffkait,

You're an idiot!

geoffkrait
Just as I suspected. You can’t.

Ignorance is bliss. Google can be your friend.

Two freebies, no charge.....

Quote:

What is a NRTL?

A Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL) is a third-party organisation that certifies products for the North American market.

http://www.tuv-sud.com/activity/product-certification/nationally-recognized-testing-laboratories-nrt...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Quote:

“Certified” or “Listed” means that:
•
The product has been tested and certified to comply with a product safety standard.
•
The product was tested and certified by an accredited third-party certification agency, also known as:
Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories (NRTLs)
•The product is listed in the NRTL’s registry of certified products.
•The product manufacturer has license to bear the NRTL’s mark on the certified product.
•Manufacturers can then mass produce that certified product for use in any location.
12

Types of Full Certification: See page 15.

http://iaeisj.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/newjersey_iaei__navigating_the_certification_m...

geoff kait said:

I’m referring to an independent third party tester. That would be an honest and careful manner, no?

And what recognized industry third party would that be?

Better yet. I am not disputing whether a fuse is directional or not. I believe many that have actually taken the time and tested it for themselves. BUT, with that said can you furnish anything that proves a fuse is directional? Not from a manufacture of audio grade fuses, but rather from an industry independent third party testing laboratory.

The HiFi Tuning fuse measurements that are provided in data sheets on their website were obtained by an independent third party tester.

For Fuse directionality?

If it would not be too much of an inconvenience could you produce a web link of the test from the actual independent testing laboratory. Please include certification of the testing lab.

Again for all others reading this thread I do not dispute whether fuses are directional or not. I personally have not experimented for myself. I do respect the findings of others that have. Until proven otherwise I take the word of those that say fuses are directional.

The question posed to geoffkait is to produce actually proof that a fuse is directional. So far he has not.

geoffkiat said:

Why would they test for audibility? They test for measured parameters. Remember? Unless you count audio reviewers.  Would that meet your obviously high standards?

geoffkait,

You can’t even provide proof of any credible third party test that fuse directionality is audible.

geoffkiat posted:

almarg
6,398 posts
05-24-2016 10:41pm
"I would think that it is not necessary to start modifying hardware and perhaps invalidating warranties in the process of getting to the bottom of the fuse directionality issue. IMO the methodology I suggested earlier should suffice, if done in an honest and careful manner."

Huh? I’m not suggesting that anyone modify hardware or invalidate warranties or any such thing. I’m just saying that you can eliminate the variable of the fuse holder by eliminating it from the test. I’m referring to an independent third party tester. That would be an honest and careful manner, no? Or maybe you’re insinuating that any person who doesn’t get the results you’re looking for isn’t honest and careful, it’s hard to tell. The method you suggested earlier actually doesn’t suffice since some people will jump to the conclusion that it’s the fuse holder that’s directional, not the fuse itself.

cheers,

geoff kait
machina dynamica

Third party?

geoffkait posted:

jea48
2,072 posts
05-25-2016 1:07pm
"And what recognized industry third party would that be?

Better yet. I am not disputing whether a fuse is directional or not. I believe many that have actually taken the time and tested it for themselves. BUT, with that said can you furnish anything that proves a fuse is directional? Not from a manufacture of audio grade fuses, but rather from an industry independent third party testing laboratory."


You say you believe many people have taken the time to test directionality. One assumes you’re referring to listening tests. The biggest skeptics of aftermarket fuses don’t even do that. Ah, the academic ivory tower.

As for independent third party tester it could be UL. I personally doubt UL would take the job. It could be someone else, some other organization or even individual. I actually don’t think measuring voltage drops or whatever across a fuse requires a rocket scientist. Maybe you can contact NASA or NIST or MIT and see if they are interested. Lol

"The HiFi Tuning fuse measurements that are provided in data sheets on their website were obtained by an independent third party tester. You probably didn’t realize that."

There it is again, third party.

It gets better!

geoffkait posted:

jea48
2,074 posts
05-25-2016 2:18pm
Geoffkait: The HiFi Tuning fuse measurements that are provided in data sheets on their website were obtained by an independent third party tester.

to which Jea48 responded,

"For Fuse directionality?"

For fuse directionality and other stuff. Even fuse directionality for AC circuits.

 

On the question!

geoffkait,

What part don't you understand? You're continually trying to nitpick responses with certain people in threads. Sometimes asking for proof and then you will say in the same thread to take your word as the gospel. I think you just love to argue. 

 LOL..... You can't even remember what you are arguing about.

Jea48, What on Earth are you going on about? Can you make it easy for everyone to follow your line of uh reasoning and state your problem in a sentence or two?

Huh?

I suggest you start from the start of the entire thread and reread all your posts/responses to others, their responses to yours, and yours back to them. Maybe if you kept notes it might help. 

Best regards,

jea48

atmasphere said:

 I joined this thread recently with some results on testing. Those results are that the directionality appears out of coincidence and that actually greater improvement can be had by rotating the fuse in the holder for best contact. The improvement is measurable and audible; descriptions others have made on this thread of what happens when you get the direction right accurately describe what happens when the contact area is maximized.

Occam’s Razor has something to say here! Given that a fuse has to be used in AC circuits and given that people report differences by reversing the fuse, and also understanding how fuses are inherently incapable of having directionality in any way whatsoever, the explanation that they somehow have an effect by reversing them in the holder is a fairly complex explanation: some sort of unknowable, unmeasurable quality of the fuse itself.

A simpler explanation is that the reversal is improving the contact area because fuse and holder are not dimensionally perfect and the fuse might sit better in the holder in one direction. By rotating the fuse in the holder without reversing it gets the same effect only more profoundly.

+ 1.

Great post!

almarg posted:

Atmasphere 5-26-2016 12:31pm EDT
... I joined this thread recently with some results on testing. Those results are that the directionality appears out of coincidence and that actually greater improvement can be had by rotating the fuse in the holder for best contact. The improvement is measurable and audible; descriptions others have made on this thread of what happens when you get the direction right accurately describe what happens when the contact area is maximized.

Occam’s Razor has something to say here! Given that a fuse has to be used in AC circuits and given that people report differences by reversing the fuse, and also understanding how fuses are inherently incapable of having directionality in any way whatsoever, the explanation that they somehow have an effect by reversing them in the holder is a fairly complex explanation: some sort of unknowable, unmeasurable quality of the fuse itself.

A simpler explanation is that the reversal is improving the contact area because fuse and holder are not dimensionally perfect and the fuse might sit better in the holder in one direction. By rotating the fuse in the holder without reversing it gets the same effect only more profoundly.

almarg said:

Thank you, Ralph. I for one cannot envision a more persuasive case being provided on either side of the issue.

I couldn't agree more.

atmasphere,

Again, great post. The best explanation I have heard to date for fuse directionality. I would think it should satisfy those that have experimented with fuse directionality and say they can hear a difference. I would think it should also satisfy those that say they did not hear any difference, when they reversed the direction of the fuse.

Three important parts for a good electrical connection:

Cleanliness. (Free from contaminants and or corrosion)

Contact surface area. 

Contact pressure.

Your explanation makes more sense, at least to me, that the directionality of the fuse has to do with a VD, voltage drop, across the fuse element itself. That assumes the VD across the fuse would be measured in millivolts.

 Millivolts...... If that was the reason, wouldn't the same reasoning hold true for the AC mains line voltage feeding the fuse? In other words a small VD in millivolts on the mains feeding a piece of equipment could/would have an impact on the SQ of the piece of equipment.   Not hardly....

jazzonthehudson said:

With all due respect for the previous posters, I did reverse an (the same) Audio Magic Platinum in my PS Audio DSD (the same F1 fuse holder on the power supply board) several times and had other listeners present: we all experienced a consistent behavior (with the same tracks): that the direction influences a.o. the soundstage. As mentioned before, I always clean the contact points (fuse holder and fuse itself) before the tests.

To complement my tests, I would suggest, for the sake of experiments, to temporarily test with the same brand with a higher breaking current (e.g. 2A instead of 1A) to see if a lower resistance of the fuse would yield a better SQ.

Anything is possible in this hobby. I do not doubt for a second that you as well as others could/can hear a difference.

Here is quote from an interview with John Curl.

quote:

"I was working with Noel Lee and a company
called Symmetry. We designed this crossover and I specified these one
microfarad Mylar caps. Noel kept saying he could ’hear the caps’ and I
thought he was crazy. Its performance was better than aluminum or
tantalum electrolytics, and I couldn’t measure anything wrong with my
Sound Technology distortion analyzer. So what was I to complain about?
Finally I stopped measuring and started listening, and I realized that
the capacitor did have a fundamental flaw. This is were the ear has it all
over test equipment. The test equipment is almost always brought on line
to actually measure problems the ear hears. So we’re always working in
reverse. If we do hear something and we can’t measure it then we try to
find ways to measure what we hear. In the end we invariably find a
measurement that matches what the ear hears and it becomes very
obvious to everybody."

http://www.parasound.com/pdfs/JCinterview.pdf

The why? It took time for Curl to find out the why. I just don’t think the why for the differences you and others are hearing is from a supposed difference in resistance of the internal fuse element inside the fuse. Especially when the fuse, as reported by other, is located on the mains supply side of the power transformer of the piece of audio equipment. Here we are talking about 120V or 240V depending on the country.

Hi Al,

Just read your post. I should have done a better job of what I was trying to say. After reading your post, I can see why Ralph took it the wrong way.

atmaspere said:

Its more than just millivolts- I can measure the effects with a 3 1/2 digit voltmeter. Mitch2’s suggestion by the way is excellent and is also measurable. Some fuseholders (like panel mount units) won’t allow this.

In response to my post:

Millivolts...... If that was the reason, wouldn’t the same reasoning hold true for the AC mains line voltage feeding the fuse? In other words a small VD in millivolts on the mains feeding a piece of equipment could/would have an impact on the SQ of the piece of equipment. Not hardly....

Your explanation makes more sense, at least to me, that the directionality of the fuse has to do with a VD, voltage drop, across the fuse element itself. That assumes the VD across the fuse would be measured in millivolts.

Millivolts...... If that was the reason, wouldn’t the same reasoning hold true for the AC mains line voltage feeding the fuse? In other words a small VD in millivolts on the mains feeding a piece of equipment could/would have an impact on the SQ of the piece of equipment. Not hardly....

Sorry if I was not clear. The resistance I was referring to is that of the fuse element itself inside the fuse. Not the resistance that can be created from a poor fuse to fuse clip connection due to corrosion and or poor contact pressure.

Jim

atmashere said:

In one of our preamps I measured a 158mV (0.158V) drop; in one of our amps I’ve seen a 2 volt drop cause a loss of 40 watts at the output of the amp.

A fuse is one of those spots in that set of connections from the wall (AC power connectors, power cord and the fuse and holder) that is likely the ’softest’ which is to say that the sag occurs easier at that point, due to contact area and conductor size (the effects being limited by the fuse being so small). Part of this is due to the nature of the fuse itself, the other part due to its connection into the system.

When you said you measured a 2V VD (Voltage Drop) on an amp, I assume you are still talking across the line side and load side of the fuse clips of the fuse. Not across the actual fuse itself. I just want to make sure everybody here is on the same page.

As you know that is a perfect example of poor contact pressure and or corrosion buildup between the fuse end caps and the fuse holder contacts.

The greater the load on the poor connection can cause heat between the poor connection/s due to the resistance of the poor connection. More heat, more corrosion, more resistance, less contact surface area, more VD, when measured across the line-in fuse clip, and the load-out fuse clip connection....

Jim

Al,

Thanks for the clarification.

Jim

I would add IF the contact between the fuse end caps and fuse holder clip/s contact/s are such that a VD can be measured (From fuse clip to fuse clip) then what else can/is going on in the poor connection? Maybe an ever so slight arcing between the fuse end cap/s and the fuse holder clip/s? If the fuse holder in mounted directly to the circuit board in close proximity of electronic components who can say if the ever so slight arcing can be sending/spewing out RFI infecting the electronics? Who can say if the arcing is causing a vibration on the circuit board? Is there is energy being created by the ever so light arcing? What impact might the energy create by the arcing have on the electronics of the piece of equipment.

Like atmashere said in an earlier post his preamp’s power suppliers are regulated so a small AC Line mains VD would not have any impact on the SQ of the preamp. But what if the connection between the fuse end caps and fuse clip/s was such that a VD existed, therefore maybe, an ever so small arcing was happening. So, what IF?

Jmho, the differences heard in SQ is not from minuscule resistance of the fuse element inside the fuse that measures higher in one direction than the other, which is said to create a minuscule VD across the fuse element, measured in a live completed circuit from fuse end cap to end cap.

I’m reminded of a post by herman.

Quote:

"If you say the AC fuse blew because there was too much current flowing through it everybody nods in agreement even though that isn’t true. If you say the wire in the fuse melted because it got too hot after absorbing energy from the electromagnetic wave people look at you like you are insane and want to argue that vibrating electrons constitute current flow."

atmashere said:

^^ You won’t have arcing- that would be audible! A small amount of arcing has a way of turning into a lot of it in a short period of time...

Well that depends. On the AC mains side it depends on the size of the conductors and or the surface area of conducting contacts, bus, ect, and is directly proportional to the connected load passing through the arcing connection. Example say a branch circuit consists of #12awg wire. The continuous connected load is only 1 or 2 amps. The wall receptacle is old and the contact pressure is poor when a plug is inserted into the receptacle. Or maybe the receptacle is fairly new and the homeowner didn’t tighten down one of the terminal screws on the neutral or hot branch circuit conductors making a good solid connection. Can/could there be a slight small amount of series arcing going on with the 1 or 2 amp connected load? Would a 1 or 2 amp load create a lot of heat in the connection of the #12 wire to the side terminal plate/screw of the receptacle? Could the surface area of the #12 wire and the receptacle screw/terminal plate/contact, and male blade of the plug dissipate the heat? Now all bets are off if the home owner plugs in a big power hungry amp into the receptacle..... (Note: If the branch circuit wiring is protected by an AFCI breaker the arc fault sensing device of the breaker may/will trip the breaker open. It would depends on the amount of series arcing going on.)

Arcing can cause/create RFI and can be transferred through a conductor or through the air. Can it be audible through an audio system speaker?

On the power supply side of the secondary side of the power transformer.

Best example is a cold solder joint. Not in the main DC rails necessarily, though that would probably be heard through the speakers. In that event it would more than likely eventually burn itself free creating an open circuit. But how about an arcing cold solder joint in a circuit that does not consume a lot of energy?