Digital, Low Mass, ClassD, Less expensive, Let it happen!
Well here we are! Not that you can't go back and buy boat anchors, but now we know sound is better with low mass designs. Digital source? Yep, the tide has turned. ClassD amplification is also here to stay. Lower mass speakers, on their way back too. The audiophile hobby is getting less expensive and better sounding.
I guess we can debate this, but it's happening anyway. The hobby is simply growing up and becoming more aware of how to get great sound, and get it smart. There has been a lot of myths passed down when we only had paperback magazines, mostly for marketing, but the internet has finally caught up with audio reality. Instead of $20,000.00 components we have $20,000.00 whole systems (including all the trimming). Shoot, there are $5,000.00 systems that excel. The Trade Shows are changing, the market is changing and we are changing. Want to stay old school? No problem, there will always be old school and plenty of used gear (at least for our lifetimes). There will also be smaller niche companies that spring up to tempt us.
The hobby is entering a new era for the extreme listener. It will be a hobby of doing and exploring Electrical, Mechanical and Acoustical as equals. Components will be much smaller and more flexible, and more time will be spent on playing our whole music collection, and not just a few recordings. Many HEA debates will be making their way to the archives as the hobby grows closer to mainstream. Mainstream as in higher quality audiophile mainstream.
Are you ready? I sure am!
Michael Green
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erik_squires"Trust ClearThink to misrepresent an entire thread." You had declared, pronounced, and stated you're agreement that "HEA" is in a "freefall" and now you say that I misrepresented "an entire thread" and you now change, alter, and revise you're position that it is not in a freefall but a "bubble" due for "correction" so it is not possible to understand what claim, assertion, or position you want us to accept from you as fact, truth, and reality. |
Also the sky is falling, the aliens are coming and the world is ending soon so now is the time to repent! Trust ClearThink to misrepresent an entire thread. No one is saying this either. I think what we are saying is that we've been in a bubble, and it's time for a correction. Those of us who like music and the gear to reproduce it would like the market to suffer a gentle correction instead of a sudden implosion. Rather than saying it is the end of HEA, I'm saying it is time for HEA to address the median enthusiast more consistently. Best, E |
erik_squires"Trust me though when I say HEA is in free fall.
I believe you. I just got off the phone with a secret source who makes speakers, and his sources are saying the same thing." Also the sky is falling, the aliens are coming and the world is ending soon so now is the time to repent! |
Trust me though when I say HEA is in free fall. I believe you. I just got off the phone with a secret source who makes speakers, and his sources are saying the same thing. I’m just wondering how specific a number you are getting from Parts Express and the HEA land. It feels like we are in the same sort of market as SUVs were in before the gas price crisis (2009?). Gas prices shot up, the market for SUVs crashed, and several big name car makers went into free-fall. For HEA to survive, it needs a new paradigm, a new, more inclusive world that takes into account the flat or lowered buying power of the median worker, rising rent and health care costs. That’s our new economic reality. We need more commuter vehicles to excite us, not exotic vehicles attainable only by a shrinking number of listeners. I remember some one threw some shade at me by saying "I don’t see you spending a lot of money." Guilty! I am not going to. I also think I’m the best example of the middle class enthusiast. That is, I’m well read, informed, make above median income, and I’m worried about money, and not about to shell out megabucks, period, and I’m sure not going to shell out money to impress my (non-existent) friends. Thrill me, dammit! I’m waiting to be thrilled. Best, E |
Hi Erik Conversations with insiders. People who know how many amps are really being sold by the HEA companies. There are basically two numbers that get shared. One is the actual number of sales and the other is the evangelistic projections given to the buying public (speaking about HEA here). HEA designers are not going to tell the potential buyer how little they are actually selling. I as well won’t name names, but will speak in more general terms. I also don’t care to make friends mad at me. Trust me though when I say HEA is in free fall. As far as Parts Express it’s easy to see as they list their products according to buying bins. When they are selling quantities in bulk of 25-up you know they’re selling tons of these to they’re bulk buyers. Keep in mind Parts Express and other companies sell not only direct but also have many commercial accounts. mg |
Even more emails have headed my way since this thread has started which is making me wonder how many listeners have done away with the heavy high mass amps and moved to the newer approach, and what does this mean. It appears that Parts Express alone is selling more amplifiers than most of HEA amp sells combined here in the US. I'm also hearing reports that the Chinese amp market is off the charts and a big part of this is low mass as well. What's even better news is the folks who once challenged me about sound quality, after putting the challenge of low mass vs high to the test themselves are coming to the conclusion that lower mass systems not only sound better but also play more recordings. "more music content" mg |
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Headphones of course are always in the equation. Most of the folks I know have all 4. Headphone, computer, theatre and in-room listening systems. Sometimes the theatre and listening are combined. Well now that I think about it they are all part of each other with more than one place for entertainment. Since Class D the look has changed dramatically as well the system function. The big amps in the middle of the room are gone. Not saying that area is empty just reorganized or the equipment is in another room. The younger generation is either looking at the soundstage or soundstage and video, not so much looking at the components. Michael |
And look at these Class D threads taking off, good for you guys! There's more, much more, but this is a good introduction to the paradigm shift that is taking place in playback for those who have not already made the move to low mass. It's interesting setting the components side by side, as in two different rooms, one room having the extremely expensive heavy system and the other room with low mass, high tech and low cost. mg also thanks for the emails |
For a point of reference I have Audio Note, Jolida and a few others, but the tube designer I've enjoyed listening to this last couple of years for amps and preamps is.... Especially the A25-M and the AP-01. I mention these as a reference to what I use to ping pong back and forth with the Class D world. I also have outstanding relationships for borrowing equipment. Nice to live a few blocks from the CES. So I'm not that far from anything I want. One thing I will mention about class D is how one mates them with the rest of the system. I have heard class D sound thin with speakers that have more components in the crossover. Class D likes simple crossovers or in my case only one capacitor. As with any type of amp design using the best speaker type match is important. If folks put a class D amp into a system use to A or AB they might find themselves coming up short. Class D is a different animal and really cool design once you find the variables that fit, like with all things audio. MG |
I abandoned tubes amps (HK CII and CV) some years ago, but having heard a very fine 65 wpc KT88 tube amp recently driving my OB speakers with a 12 ohm impedance, I am swinging back in that direction. Of course a tube amp is de rigueur, in my opinion, but there is such magic in a powerful tube amp that my SS amp can't reproduce. Flea watt tube amps make no sense to me. I demo'd a couple of mid-fi Class D amps a while back and they initially sounded quite good, but after a time, I felt that I was missing something, the something being found immediately when I swapped back my Class A/B amp into the system. Maybe the higher-end Class D amps are as musical as other Class A, Class A/B and tube amps, but they are out of my price range. MG's point is well taken that Class D amps are the wave of the future and I think they will figure it out, but at the moment I am going back to a tube amp myself. One reason I abandoned the HK Citation amps was the PITA of biasing them. With modern tube amps, it is a simple process, indeed. Plus, there are a sufficient number of new tubes available that pretty much give NOS tubes are run for their money. |
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kosst says "Not really sure what Pass amps have to do with the general behavior of amps in general." My answer to that is everything since kosst uses them as his point of reference. So what he is saying is, he using Pass Labs as his reference yet he doesn't have any experience with Pass Labs past the one amp that he built? Speaking for myself, if I have a question for Nelson I'll speak with Nelson or use his products for my own evaluations. Saying .02% means nothing to me. For example, tonight I made sonic changes to a recording I'm playing. I spread out the stage more and gave more presence to the cymbals. As a result the bottom end became more real and in better pace with the midrange. Am I now suppose to describe this in distortion measurements, or claim that I can only do this with class AB or D or A? Fact is I can make these desired changes with any type of amp class. I can do this because I understand how systems play music and I have learned to tune them. No magic and no measurements, simple applied physics. mg |
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In regard to interconnects, way back when people discovered they mattered, I bought good shielded wire in bulk and made my own. This was wire that was used for TV stations, so you know it was the highest of quality. Word got around about my high quality interconnects, and what a difference they made. I only made them for my friends and whoever they sent my way; no, I was not interested in a new business, just doing favors for other audiophiles. One day I went to place an order, and discovered that wire was no longer available for the public, you had to be commercial in order to purchase it. No wire, no more interconnects. |
teo_audio said it all for me. I don't listen with my conscious mind, it's too easily deceived; I listen with my "subconscious inner mind" that hears into the depths of the music, it can discern which reproduction is the best. As an example; way back when people listened to the radio for music, it sounded good because they were listening to fine tube amps; especially on floor models; music lovers knew the newer SS radios didn't sound as good, but almost overnight, that's all that was available. I put SS and Class D in the same category, although to be honest, I've never heard Class D. |
Kosst, I have a question for you. How many of Nelson's amps have you owned? Many of us here are Nelson Pass fans (me included). I've owned quite a few of his designs and when reading your responses I ask myself how much experience does Kosst actually have with the equipment he makes comments about, like others here have questioned you. I have had success with A AB and D, mainly because I've learned what they do through listening. thanks Michael |
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In 1974 the FMI 80 was a very good low-priced speaker, better than many much more expensive models from other companies.I went from Altec horns to FMI 80s (Fulton was here in Minnesota). Eventually I had a set of Js and then Premiers, before going in a different direction. But that set of 80s I had are still alive- doing background music duty at a coffee shop in NE Minneapolis. In the 90s we sought out some SET amps, since they were a sort of rising star back then, to see if there was anything we needed to be worried about. There wasn't. Class D- same thing, until just very recently. I've been of the opinion that class D was the rising star in amplification for some time, but that they just weren't fully realized. All technologies follow a price/performance curve, with lots of investment initially with little performance gain. As the technology gets sorted out, big gains are made with little money so the tech improves rapidly during that time. When its mature, only small gains are made and with significant investment. IMO only, we are somewhere in the middle to top of that curve; I don't think that class D technology is all that mature yet. The reason is that relatively small players like Merrill are able to make contributions that advance the art. Heck, we've even been able to do that. So I have to assume its still got a ways to go. At any rate, recent Class D amps are sounding a lot better than even just 5 years ago. |
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My fav all-around system by a considerable amount, if I have to choose one, is my Ultra Light portable Sony Walkman cassette player with Grado SR-60 headphones (which I made even lighter by removing the really horrid sounding ear pads, whose brilliant idea were those? ). Dynamic, engaging, musical! Total mass 14 ounces. I’m not hot doggin ya. 🌭 |
Hi bdp24 "In 1974 the FMI 80 was a very good low-priced speaker, better than many much more expensive models from other companies. The same was true of the NAD 3020 integrated amp in the 1980's." I agree, 2 wonderful products. "but that's not why they sounded good" That statement is where you and I would disagree. Double the weight of either the 80 or 3020 and the soundstage will shrink, shift up and run into the speakers' locations. Michael Green |
In 1974 the FMI 80 was a very good low-priced speaker, better than many much more expensive models from other companies. The same was true of the NAD 3020 integrated amp in the 1980's. I guess they could be described as "low mass", but that's not why they sounded good. Good design is not a bumper sticker slogan. |
Well, like I've been saying (as well as others here), it's happening whether there's a debate here or not. Simple passive acoustics, room correction (DSP), low mass amps and entry level speakers, inexpensive enough to make the audio cheapskate blush, are making their way into the audiophile mainstream way of thinking. None of this needs Agon membership approval. It's just a fact that simpler, happier audiophile days are here that is far more practical then what was preached years past. Many of you are putting together, past and now, systems that rival the big buck systems and that's good. The cool thing that I'm talking about is, your sharing your findings and that's what is needed. And, that's what's going to balance out this hobby and introduce new blood to the magic of in-room listening. Headphone and car listening are already there, more or less, but HEA has struggled to get to that comfort level it deserves. Room correction is now the norm, passive and electronic, that's a big step. Low mass is taking place, that's the most needed next step taking place. Low mass more gain. Michael Green |
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I've heard some digital amps that left me cold and wanting and I've heard some (Genesis and Audio Alchemy) that sounded really nice. What I have heard is very, very limited but the potential its there. When all the bugs are ironed out and they get better as they get smaller I'll be all ears and maybe open wallet as well. 😄 All the best, Nonoise |
I am definitely on board the whole free wheelin’ low mass train 🚂 Toot! Toot! Not counting my elaborate seismic iso stand, which is quite massive and tricked out, the system itself is only 24 ounces, including Grado headphones and Panasonic portable CD player, made in Japan. Obviously when you go very low mass as I have you not only shed a lot of pounds but a lot of things that produce noise and distortion. |
Yep, I think we’ll all have enough fun. The guys who probably won’t be having fun are the ones left behind arguing about what they think distortion is. As far as digital, I loved it in the beginning and I love it now. A lot of folks who don't like digital for the most part haven't learned how to play it. mg |
I’ve always been a fan of simple well made $1000 systems. It takes effort on the part of the user of such, though. Most throw money at it trying to get it to work, when effort is the part that makes it work. Throwing money at the problem can be ineffective and take far longer to get the same spot that could have been reached years earlier via effort. Learn. Grow. think. Logic. All in the service of the emotions we attempt to invoke, when hearing great reproduction. Most folks who are here, though, are enthusiasts and tend to put in some to more effort. $1000? sure. Buy the right speakers. Upgrade them. Buy the right amplifier. Upgrade it. Buy the right source device. Upgrade it. Buy the right cables.. Of course, upgrading here can be a problem. Sites that cater to the DIY audio enthusiast have fairly large followings. Such groups probably outnumber the percentage of people on audiophile forums. There is a reason for that. Not a fan of class D, though. The sound they produce is mostly noise/hash, misheard as detail, due to how the ear processes signal. Most audio equipment (pretty well 100%, actually) is guilty of this sort of sin. A little of each, darker and noise/hash as detail a a pair of sonic bookends. It is literally the nature of electronics. Class D pushes this too far in the one direction. It can take time to discern this point. Class D will probably take the same path as Digital. Where it (digital) was a step backward at first, and felt by some to be superior and pushed as superior. This (digital) was uniquely a industry wide corporate push, though. Then over the next 20-30 years, it (class D and digital) approaches the quality of what was available before in the prior technology, and then it is realized, openly, at that time...that it was a degradation, not an advance. But we’re much better now! Really! (will be the admission in 20 years, re Class D......) But hey, if folks like it and it makes for them having fun with tunes, who am I to argue. |
