Digital, Low Mass, ClassD, Less expensive, Let it happen!
Well here we are! Not that you can't go back and buy boat anchors, but now we know sound is better with low mass designs. Digital source? Yep, the tide has turned. ClassD amplification is also here to stay. Lower mass speakers, on their way back too. The audiophile hobby is getting less expensive and better sounding.
I guess we can debate this, but it's happening anyway. The hobby is simply growing up and becoming more aware of how to get great sound, and get it smart. There has been a lot of myths passed down when we only had paperback magazines, mostly for marketing, but the internet has finally caught up with audio reality. Instead of $20,000.00 components we have $20,000.00 whole systems (including all the trimming). Shoot, there are $5,000.00 systems that excel. The Trade Shows are changing, the market is changing and we are changing. Want to stay old school? No problem, there will always be old school and plenty of used gear (at least for our lifetimes). There will also be smaller niche companies that spring up to tempt us.
The hobby is entering a new era for the extreme listener. It will be a hobby of doing and exploring Electrical, Mechanical and Acoustical as equals. Components will be much smaller and more flexible, and more time will be spent on playing our whole music collection, and not just a few recordings. Many HEA debates will be making their way to the archives as the hobby grows closer to mainstream. Mainstream as in higher quality audiophile mainstream.
Ten years ago class d was relegated to subwoofers and pro audio. Now it has made its way into the mainstream. I suspect that ten years from now it will have a much bigger share of the market and a much larger number of happy owners.
Often times, the end result... what we hear...is the result of synergies between sources, amplification, speakers and rooms that weren’t anticipated up front. There are many people who own various amplifiers for just this reason... go over to audio circle and read what owners of Cherry amps have to say ( full disclosure, I own a Halo not a Cherry).
I’m just saying that science and measurements don’t always explain preferences or where things will be a few years down the road.
Just wrapping up a listening party we had tonight at TuneLand Vegas. Folks went between 3 suites here, each using my systems. The Class D amps made a big impression. One fella asked to borrow one of the amps to compare vs his tubes and two of the listeners were ladies, which was pretty cool. They (the ladies) spent a lot of time in the chair but also were into the stage from general positions. Their comments were interesting saying the whole room sound was much better than many systems they listen to. One said she was not able to sense a sweet spot shift that was obvious. This was one of her beefs with HEA systems being too sweet spot sensitive and then falling apart out of the sweet spot. This didn’t happen here. Was nice to have both male and female audiophiles here, all having the same level of listening skills and interest. Darn good food too from my favorite local chef.
Kosst's assessment is correct, methinks, however again I caution against making broad claims about a class of amplifier being better or not than another. Amplifier class bigotry is short sighted in both directions.
Interesting that KEF decided to use a class a/b amp for the tweeter section of the LS50W.... and a class d amp for the midbass driver which crosses over somewhere near 2khz give or take...
would KEF use class d in a model with such a strong reputation in such a critical frequency range if they thought it wasn’t ready for prime time?
i suspect that the amp designers who believe in class d will continue to push the limits making it better and the winners will be the buyers... no matter which class they prefer...
at the end of the day, we don’t all actually like or prefer the same sound... which leaves room for many players.
Well I've certainly been "Slain In The Spirit" over Class D! I very much enjoy my A and A/B but enjoying the heck out of Class D too. Does that make me interdenominational I guess than :)
clearthink727 posts03-25-2019 3:53pmmichaelgreenaudio "It looks like there might be more threads on Class D around the web now than other Classes."
That may be because Class D has developed a cult like following of those consumed with religious fervor who seek to advance, promote, and proselytize their beliefs so that they can be saviors of those lost souls who need conversion, redemption, and salvation.
>>>>Oh, you mean like Class A? Or like SET? Maybe you mean like tubes?
michaelgreenaudio"It looks like there might be more threads on Class D around the web now than other Classes."
That may be because Class D has developed a cult like following of those consumed with religious fervor who seek to advance, promote, and proselytize their beliefs so that they can be saviors of those lost souls who need conversion, redemption, and salvation.
Challenge: super low mass Sony Walkman portable CD player with NDM and ultralight Sony Walkman headphones vs stock Oppo CD player and headphones of your choice. Any takers? The low mass train is pulling out of the station. All aboard! Toot! Toot! 🚂
The low mass train is certainly coming our way. Smaller transformers, smaller magnet sizes on drivers, smaller connectors and a host of many other "variable" products allowing less distortion and larger dynamic ranges. Another big change heading our way is doing away with overbuilt speaker crossovers. One low mass change feeds the chain reaction. Remove a problem and you automatically remove the need for complicated fixes.
It is interesting to see all these kinds of more recent developments (or most of them) coming not from the top down, as we've long been accustomed to, but essentially from 'the bottom up'...simple battery experiments, new inexpensive streamers (ala Allo Digione Signature), chip amps and the rest of it, much of it having been around for a while, now bearing fruit in the form of new product releases that, for the first time for their price category, are beginning to show signs of upending established traditionally made products that cost one or two thousand bucks, or even more...and at a fraction of the cost. I do imagine more such price/performance barriers might be broken relatively soon...and by Class D, as well. Low mass TT's just might add to the party.
We're also seeing continual advancements in things like noise-floor reduction and power-factor correction, the recent rise in low-cost NOS DAC's and now finally a much wider availability of 24/96k, or higher, technology in ever lower priced ancillary digital gear. And we are beginning to see all that across a number of companies that are competing for those same emerging market arenas. That is the thing that gives me the best hope for the moment for the future of the hobby. That, and, as I say, that most of these products now seem to be 'climbing up' to possibly challenge and overtake traditional, lower-end hifi, I'd say. This area of the market does seem to me for the moment to be a legit "cutting edge" in its own right. I agree it's sorta hard to ignore what might be going on here.
Thank God we have ears! And thank God we have the free will to explore for ourselves!
The lifestyle of exploring music reproduction is a dream come true for the audiophile at whatever level we choose to get involved. The different camps of the community "are" the denominations of audio I guess one could say.
Audiogon is very much like driving into a town noticing all the clubs, churches, bars, businesses and schools. Almost all the households visit or belong to one or several of these camps. Which camp does an audiophile choose to be a part of is up to them as an individual.
I belong to the camp of "Variables" (Tuning), which means I see audio as a continuum of constant motion. It's the same camp as playing a musical instrument in-tune or any variation there of I choose. In other words I make my own sound as I see fit with all the variation physics provides. Tuning seeks not to get stuck in a "fixed" (one sound) setting. This doesn't mean random energy flying around without control, but instead being in charge of the variables. In many ways Tuning is the opposite of Plug & Play. With Plug & Play we are dictated to, with Tuning we choose our own path.
Laggers is a marketing business term and not an insult. It is not meant to be positive or negative...it just defines behavior. There will always be laggers and early adopters etc...
We need both. Yes both. Great if we can all get along. Just seems to be some very vocal laggers lagging as they do, but also throwing out lots of words while lagging. Perhaps more lagging and less attacking words. Perhaps?
michaelgreenaudio"Yep, Agon is slowly turning the corner, sometimes kicking and screaming the whole way,"
The only ones who are kicking and screaming are the religious fundamentalists who are driven, motivated, and consumed with absolute faith, conviction, and fervor and everyone else is mostly questioning, challenging, and doubting which is the hallmark of independent thinkers, observers, and scientists but who are targeted as infidels by those who announce, proclaim, and insist that they found Truth.
First it was miveraaudio calling us luddites, now grannyring is calling us laggers.
There is absolutely no truth to it. In fact, right after I go down to the pond to cut a block of ice for the fridge I am going to crank up the old Victrola and put on a tune.
It was a great thread. Too bad it is gone ..... if that is true. Lots of push back on the Gon to change and new. Seems we have less early adopters here and more laggers. Lagger is a conservative description for the aggressive anti stance to innovation I often see here.
Those vintage Sony Walkman lightweight headphones are worth their weight in gold. I just sold a pair for $75. That’s more than new Grados. Reason? Sound quality. Metaphors be with you. 👻 👻 👻 You might think you know something but you don’t.
Correct. Every product I work with get's tuned or is made variably tunable. That doesn't mean every product gets taken apart, but most do.
In many cases I'll be working on a component that one of the Tunees has as well. That way we can ping pong tuning ideas together and I usually will then make custom tuning toys for them to use or test.
MG, if I correctly understand you, the class D amps (or really anything for that matter) aren’t simply dropped into your system(s). Don’t you tune or modify them in some respect?
I'm impressed!! Your getting it folks, good for you!
The converts over to Low Mass "tunable systems" is growing. This last month I can really see the numbers of folks trading in their over built approach for one that makes more sense and better sounding.
I know after years of over massing your system (systems) you kept going and going till you finally put on "that" recording and realized maybe you have been going in the wrong direction. I also know making the turn away from traditional HEA feels treasonous at first. But, your doing it and your finding your not alone. In fact your finding that most of the audiophile world has either done or are on their way to doing the same thing.
here's why
No where along the audio pathway can you kill the sound to restore the music. If you kill the sound, your also killing part of the recorded content. Now that you have started getting rid of the extra weight your hearing more music content. I suggest you keep going. Keep unloading those bulky acoustical products and getting rid of those big chassis and heavy cables and lets get to the core of your audio signal. Your audio system doesn't need to be as heavy as you have made it. In fact your system probably weighs 10x or more than it needs to to get the job done, and get it done better then you have ever heard before.
why does it now sound better?
When you start freeing your system from mass you are allowing your signal to work better with the fields of nature. Remember there are 4 basic fundamental forces, the strong force, the electromagnetic force, the weak force, and gravity. No matter what brilliant audiophile theories are thrown at you from our Agon gurus, these are the 4 main interactions that all other energies submit to on our planet. The word "interaction" is the key to it all. Interaction is the opposite from kill. Because the world is made of motion this means that things like audio have a balance to them, no absolutes. The audio signal in motion is highly influenced by it's core's surroundings. You might think of an audio signal traveling down an audio pathway as secluded by itself, isolated from all other energy, but that's not an audio signal in motion at all. The audio signal is in interaction with the four fundamentals that makes everything work. The question comes up, how far away from an audio wire do you have to be before you are not affecting it with the fundamental forces? The answer is both simple and complicated if you think too much. Your audio parts are a part of the four forces therefore it is bound by the same laws as any interactive energy conduit. Your wire for example is part of the fields that interact together with it. Your audio is in a continuum of change. Not necessarily adrift but not confined by a dielectric either. Fields move in and through and surround, all being part of the performance of the audio signal passing through. If you over dampen the conduit you dampen the audio signal (squeezing the sound). Under-dampening the signal becomes an issue when other parts are creating their own energy fields (such as transformers) and are too close to the conduit or if you have shields interfering with the conduits function. Ok I'm not going any further or we will attract attention seeking audio trolls till the cows come home. But all this info is easy to study on your own anyway.
To answer why does low mass sound better is simple. Low mass interacts with the forces better because with low mass your not crowding the signal and fields as they are mingling. Low mass with less interference and more interaction gives you more efficiency.
here's a test you can do
Take a typical amplifier or receiver and take the cover off and remove the transformer away from the other parts and listen to how the soundstage grows. If you move big heat sinks or anything of more mass away from the smaller and more sensitive parts you'll hear a huge improvement with your soundstage space and power efficiency will go up.
Yep, typing class D amplifiers into a search engine is getting more and more exciting.
For my uses "Tunable" the class D move has been a no brainer. So much so that I’ve been considering bringing my own amp to market to be part of the Rev Speaker Combo. The sound and practicality of these class D amps are game changing for speaker and room designing. Very impressive!
Caught me, I guess my vocabulary isn't nearly as good as your cherry picking of data to suite a particular view.
I think we don't realize how many more devices can play music today than in the past. Telephones, laptops, televisions. Above probably 10 watts, I'd be willing to guess that the majority of devices the average consumer listens to music with are Class D, and 99% of that from a digital source. If we want to talk about HEA as a club, of which some people may be allowed to enter and others not, then sure, let's define it as linear amplifiers only club.
I'd rather talk about where most music listeners and lovers are going though, and Class D is going to be it for many of them. Best,
Yep, some folks here can be funny (desperate for relevance it seems) while sitting in their sinking boat, trying to find the increasing holes to plug.
Your statement..."I'm going to go with my ears instead, thank you for playing" ….I'm sure burns a hole in their souls, but it doesn't get anymore truthful and simplistic as that.
It's not even an issue that we as audiophiles don't enjoy and respect eras past. I'm pretty sure all of us have had a blast exploring different design types and the designers who sport them. It's part of what gave HEA it's charm, especially before the price hikes. But, I also think most of us knew the day would come that amplifiers would become more practical and better sounding. At least this is what I always thought.
It's kind of what we have been saying since the late 70's "audio is not complicated, people are". Audio is one of those technologies that was destined to be over built and then reverse course when it went too far in the boat anchor direction. HEA took overbuild to the extreme and took part of a listening generation with it. But, that was never going to last. Amplifiers are a tool, much like crossovers are. However watch what happens to speaker designing as the class D amps take over.
Excellent post! Many, if not most, audiophiles have moved away from faceplate worship after exploring for ourselves.
HEA magazines and reviewers milked the pricy faceplate revolving door game for all it was worth and now it's virtually over. The more threads expose the innovation the easier it will be for both headphone and in-room listeners to move into the now. That's not to say other eras in the hobby and lifestyle was not fun, it simply means there's more available to us now.
Let it all hang loose. I went from full range Fulton speaker system to Class A all tube headphone system with World’s Most Modded Oppo to a very simple battery-powered Walkman CD system with original Sony Ultralight Walkman Headphones, all in the course of ten years. In the process I eliminated House AC, AC ground, wall outlets, wall outlet plates, power cords, fuses, interconnects, speakers, speaker cables, big honking transformers, a boatload of microprocessors, isolation systems, and room treatments.
And the sound is better in almost every respect. You dump a lot of noise and distortion along the way. If you could hear what I’ve heard with my ears.
No more pencils, no more books, no more teacher’s dirty looks.
but a 3K faceplate doesn't cut it for me anymore. For those that want
the jewelry go knock yourself out. If I can beat a $3500 headphone amp
for under $500 then that leaves me 3K for other things.
Hahahahah! Well said.
My plan is to spend all my money on women and stereos, then squander the rest.
I agree 100%. Over the years I've had my share of MBL, Boulder, Plinius, Levinson, Sonus Faber, Avalon, KR Audio, on and on and on. But times have changed and for the better. Case in Point, I've mainly moved to headphone listening these days. Bought a pair of Abyss 1266 phones, Wells Audio Milo and Chord Qutest as my main headphone rig. But I also bought a Pass Labs HPA-1 headphone amp for my Grado PS1000 cans. Just for grins I purchased a sub $400 Burson Fun headphone amp and added Sparkos Labs op amps for $80 to try on the Grados. Long story short, the Burson Fun with the Sparkos op amps annihilated the Pass Labs amp in every respect. Greater dynamics and drive. The HPA-1 would run out of gas at the 12:00 o'clock position whereas the Burson would cause ear bleed at the 10:00 to 11:00 c'clock point and sound way better doing it. More detail, wider and deeper soundstage. The HPA-1 was smooth and warm but the Burson made everything come alive. I'm not knocking Pass Labs, I've had several Pass units over the years but a 3K faceplate doesn't cut it for me anymore. For those that want the jewelry go knock yourself out. If I can beat a $3500 headphone amp for under $500 then that leaves me 3K for other things.
"This thread has to be a joke." and "ridiculous generalizations"
You know, I think people who have not been exposed to what has been happening over the past 10 or so years in the way of amplifier innovation and those who have expensive over built high end audio products would say what you just have. Shoot if I didn't have expensive overbuilt amps to compare to I might find it a bit of a joke as well.
Let me give a personal example of what I talked about in my post above. Where I live (small apt on the Vegas strip) visitors stop by my place. They always sit for a quick listen and talk audio as we watch the strip action. I usually have several amps right as they enter my place and they are rotated slowly in and out of my 2 systems. Before this I had a place with 6 listening rooms but I felt was too far from the Vegas Strip, convention center and airport. I mention this to explain why I have the need to rotate every 3 or so months for my work as compared to letting amps settle in the system for years. anyway current picture painted
A little less then a month ago I introduced a small Class D amp to the system and as people stopped by the shock was more than a little for folks at not only how great the sound is but also how cool these folks (all audiophiles) thought the look was. The major shocker though was when I let them know the price of the new amp setup. All of them did and are doing the "wait a minute". But the most interesting reaction is how cool they think this new amp paradigm is. "Sounds as good or better, looks very cool, is so tiny". To these folks this is a very exotic, new age approach that is more sexy to them. Before I even mention the price folks like this new style better.
Actually Clearthink, I was the one who said HEA is in free fall.
Erik's posts have been right on the money from what I have been seeing and also testing on my own. "Bubble" is a great word to describe what HEA has created. It's something that has alienated itself (themselves)from the audiophile listener. Erik has also pointed out another very important fact, there's a difference between the HEA person and the Audiophile.
Projections about the state of the audiophile can be made all day and all night, but when talking to the industry insiders themselves and audiophile clients the HEA chapter of the hobby is not so hard to figure out. The trophy buyers are getting beyond the age of buying interest and most are moving to their final system choices. These are the guys, maybe 10,000 strong who have supported the HEA revolving door. The amp of the month club has become a hard sell as compared to even 15 years ago when the decline was well in motion. Anytime you see an industry in the US loose over 90% of it's demo store fronts there's a good chance that industry is put on the endangered species list.
The other side of this is a very positive one. Your average techy can now place an order with people like "Parts Express", and others, and with a little effort build amplifier systems that out perform the extremely expensive. Pose this to the up and coming audiophile, or to the more practical one, and the over built over priced components hardly get a rise.
And here's the real deal. This paradigm shift is happening with or without the opinions of the Agon poster.
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