Digital Dilemma
I purchased an inexpensive Onkyo C-7030 CD Player more as just a transport, but also to use as a benchmark to compare to streaming music on-line. With intentions to get the streamed content to sound as good, if not better, than the CD player could muster.
After sitting my wife down for a listen (she has better ears than me) and playing Tidal, Quboz and then the same tracks on a CD, the CD was the clear winner every time. It also seems the CD playing without using the Gustard R26 DAC didn’t even sound all that much better than when played through the CD Player only, bypassing the R26. That doesn’t say too much for the R26 DAC or alternatively, it says a lot for the DAC in the CD Player!
I am using the R26 as the renderer via a LAN connection that is optically isolated. There are a few filters and adjustments on the DAC, but tweaking those still didn’t get the sound quality up to that of the CD Player.
A lot of you say you have achieved streaming that sounds as good as your analogue systems. What do you think, do I need a betted DAC?
@bigshutterbug - That’s interesting. I need to try out some more DACs, I guess. Further to the Onkyo CD player, I returned mine to the vendor. It’s a great bang for the buck, but I found for the occasional time that I listened to a CD, it sounded just as good playing it on my laptop’s optical drive, via USB to my DAC. One less piece of equipment on my rack now too!
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I have SMSL D400EX in my system for many months now, and was very positively surprised at how nice it sounds. Compared to my previous Benchmark DAC3, it is far more rich and full bodied in the midrange and lower highs. I don't feel I gave up much if any detail, the highs are sweeter and more natural sounding. Bass is full and strong. The biggest positive change was that I no longer hear harshness or "digital edge" from piano, female vocals or trumpets, and I can listen for hours on end without fatigue. I also own the Onkyo 7030 budget CD player that was the topic of this post. I use it in a simple office system, and have tried it in my main system many times before. The 7030 does not even come close to the sound of either the DAC3 or D400EX. Much smaller soundstage, less "air" and less detail. It is quite listenable and non-offensive sounding, and an audio bargain for the price. |
@bigshutterbug How did the D400EX compare to the Dac3? |
@recklesskelly - thanks |
How about this: Cable Modem >Ethernet cable >LHY SW10 network switch>SW10>Gustard R26 DAC (using 10mhz master clock from SW10 vis BNC to DAC)>pre-amp>amp>speakers The switch also has SFP ports to hook up a fiber optic cable then ethernet to the R26’s renderer. Mostly want to stream Tidal & Quboz so I also have a Roon Nucleus. |
@recklesskelly - thanks for confirming @russ751's comments. Do you know of any reclockers that are on the market as a lower price than the Innuos Phoenix? That thing is almost $4k!
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Reclocking a signal that is being reclocked again by the DAC. russ75137 posts I believe that the reclocking is the most important part of the upgrade. Before I purchased the Innuos Zenith I was using the Cambridge X50 with the Brinkmann. It was not until I added the reclocker that the system achieved its present level. I have used atomic clocks and upsampling. The key to better sound in my experience is reducing timing errors (jitter) as close to the DAC as possible. There maybe good reclockers on market at a lower price.
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@navyachts my mistake I meant the Auralic Aries G1 |
@axeis1 - I see the Auralic G1 has an on-board DAC, so you're suggesting to bypass it and use the Chord DAC? |
@axeis1 - thanks for your suggestions, I'm always on the hunt! |
@navyachts Trying not to make silly recommendations here’s my input. Look for a used Chord Quetest DAC, for a streamer again look for a used Auralic G1 or and Aurender N100H budget for a good digital cable I think you can do all of it for no more than $4K less what your current equipment brings. |
@russ751 - Yes, I was actually looking at this unit from LHY Audio which doubles as a switch as well: https://www.beatechnik.com/lhy-audio-sw-10 I'm hoping that this, hooked up to my DAC via a BNC cable, might get me closer to my CD benchmark!
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I believe that the reclocking is the most important part of the upgrade. Before I purchased the Innuos Zenith I was using the Cambridge X50 with the Brinkmann. It was not until I added the reclocker that the system achieved its present level. I have used atomic clocks and upsampling. The key to better sound in my experience is reducing timing errors (jitter) as close to the DAC as possible. There maybe good reclockers on market at a lower price. |
Is anyone using a USB reclocker? I am probably guilty of overkill , but I use a Innuos Zenith mk3 with a Innuos Phoenix reclocker connected to a Brinkmann Nyquist mk2 DAC. I also have an upscale Etherregen in my Ethernet cable line. If there is any system that sounds better, I have never heard it, including vinyl |
@soix - yes it was the Pulse Mini that I had on order and no, a CD drive and internal storage is not important. I will re-visit it...Thanks! |
@soix I actually bought and paid for a Innuos Mini when they first came out but got tired of waiting for delivery, so when I found my DAC could stream, I cancelled my order and got my money refunded. In the meantime, I also picked up a Roon Nucleus. I don’t think the Innuos Mini can be used as a Roon end point. Do you happen to know? |
While the Zen Stream is very good for the $, if you can swing $1250 I’d strongly recommend looking at the new Innuos Pulse Mini. Not only will it likely sound even better, it’s compatible with most anything and their Sense app is light years ahead of iFi in sound quality, ease of use, etc.. And they offer excellent customer service while iFi’s is basically non existent. I own the Zen Stream, but if the Pulse Mini was at all in my budget it’s a no brainer IMO. |
The overall point I was attempting to convey by using my own direct experience as an example was...the importance of understanding and managing your expectations. I invested in digital streaming because I wanted to see if the claims made by the market were true. Vastly better quality for a relatively inexpensive investment. In my case $4K was my line in the sand and It still did not get me threre. As others have pointed out, and I agree, it will take layers of investment to achieve your goal. It will cost you $$$$ to get streaming to sound as good as CD. What you put into it is what you will get out of it. In my case the biggest change was adding a power chord (I borrowed from my primary system) that cost 2X more than the entire set up its self and it still did not match up. A Value Engineered System is a Long Game. If it were me, I would take an "organic approach" and start with a versitale Dac/Preamp that will grow with your budget and the technology. You can switch/upgrade streamers, CDP/transports, cables & clocks in and out as you go. Invest in a used unit to keep in line with your budget. Look to companies that have solid proprietary technology and upgrade policies... What else did I learn... A few of my peers, who are in IT and proclaimed that streaming was the greatest format of all time also invested in putting together systems for themselves using several top rated Streaming Tecnology forward units. Every one of those guys ended up unloading thier systems. Only one of those guys still streams regularly and that is through his mac book pro. In my Case - I still have mine, collecting dust waiting to hook up to a secondary multi media system, but that project is on hold because my kids prefer to use thier phones and earbuds; my wife prefers pandora on the refidgerator, And I still prefer the CDP Dac playing Red Book CDs ... mange expectations... Good luck! |
@vthokie83 The general consensus here is as you state, so I will get a different streamer, my confusion now lies with do I get something like an ifi Zen for a few hundred dollars or spend $5,000K+ (which I don’t have anyways) as others have suggested? |
Navyachts, my 2 cents: The internal streamer in the R26 gets mixed reviews, but the R2R DAC is thought quite highly of. The C-7030 CD player is very good for the money, if you bypass its internal DAC (I used one for several years). Get a nice streamer with some good cables, and be smart about getting the data into the streamer…..and you should be on your way. There is some great advice in the previous posts. Best of luck to you! |
Navyachts, my 2 cents: The internal streamer in the R26 gets mixed reviews, but the R2R DAC is thought quite highly of. The C-7030 CD player is very good for the money, if you bypass its internal DAC (I used one for several years). Get a nice streamer with some good cables, and be smart about getting the data into the streamer…..and you should be on your way. There is some great advice in the previous posts. Best of luck to you! |
1 year ago I went through the same experience comparing a CD Player ( Nirvana Electronic Works) to my Lampizator DAC( fed by a long wireworld usb cable and macbookpro running Audirvana).
I was shocked, the streaming setup sounded nowhere as good as the cd player, despite costing 6x the price.
I trusted a friend of mine who exposed to me the importance of the source of the source! It took a dedicated switch with LPSU through a Muon System to a Digital Wattson Streamer with LPSU to the DAC, while everything including the router plugged in a PLIXIR, to sound the way it should. BUT OH BOY! It put the cd player to shame, now the cd player sounded blurry and way smaller in scale, less air, compared to the Streamer-Dac setup...
So was it worth it? The streaming setup cost 4K when put all together... For me it was worth it, my biggest pleasure is to explore new music on the fly and only streaming gives me the experience while not sacrificing sound quality.
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No roon on “big rig” (ok sometimes). Roon works on devices aka end points that are on the network. I have two end points. One in the whole house system and the other in joy central. The native Lumin App with the Lumin AMP uses Leedh processing (what ever that is) volume control and clearly bests the sound controlled by Roon. The Roon interface tops the native software. |
@navyachts @soix also IMO if you put an R26 or similarly high performance DAC into a sub $10K system, it is unrealistic to expect it to unilaterally provide a big sonic upgrade. Resolution and soundstage improvements (for example) can only be realized when the rest of the system can help deliver it. Synergy is random i.e. you trial/error gear pairings, and either it happens or it doesn't. Another thing to consider is burn-in - it took 250 hours to get the R26 in my system to deliver its maximum performance.
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@bigshutterbug @kairosman - To test things out, I just hooked up and older Technics (model #SL-PG 450) CD player via RCA’s directly to the pre-amp and it sounds pretty bad compared to the Onkyo playing through the R26. The R26 doesn’t have any RCA inputs so I couldn’t try the Technics through it, so I'm thinking that the DAC should be OK. |
I also have the Onkyo and use it as a transport through a Gustard X16. Until recently, I was also running Amazon Prime HD from my laptop into the Gustard. Cd’s were always somewhat better. Recently I installed a WIIM Pro also running through the Gustard with Optical cable because that’s the only available input. Result, (I also use my wife’s superior ears) Amazon HD App on my Samsung tablet thru WIIM for both of us is a substantial increase in SQ over the Onkyo thru the X16 and also Amazon HD thru the computer. (As of now the Amazon WIIM app is pretty bad for accessing my 4000+ saved files.) The rest of system is Aragon 4004 amp, Van Alstine FET valve Hybrid SL preamp, and Buchhardt 400s speakers. |
+1 @kairosman Adding a DDC (Denafrips Iris) and switching to the i2S connection on my Musician DAC brought the sound to a much higher level entirely — not even close, and this was using a $6.50 6” HDMI cable from Monoprice. I haven’t upgraded to a better external clock yet but it’s definitely in my future. The nice thing is you can do these upgrades in steps over time rather than having to dump big $$$ on a better DAC upfront. |
@navyachts I use a Singxer SU-6 DDC and avoid the LAN input, I use a Lumin U1 (the U1 mini's big brother) out to the R26 via the DDC into either the I2S or AES inputs. The R26 internally reclocks the I2S input signal using an external LHY OCK-2 masterclock. Also i have a fiber optic pathway between the ethernet switch and the Lumin. As mentioned, in MY system, every link in the chain including cabling makes a difference. The R26 as set up in the above mentioned way produces a fantastic soundstage, sonically very resolving but not fatiguing. Hopefully you did not get a defective unit, QC seems to be a problem for a lot of manufacturers these days - and not just Chinese manufacturers. |
@bigshutterbug - interesting, but I think the R26 sounds good, I just need to refine my overall streaming set up. |
I purchased a new R26 DAC a few months back from the distributor, to replace my Benchmark DAC3. When it arrived, I ran a digital signal through it for about 150 hours to allow it to break-in, for it sounded quite boring, soft, and lacking in detail when it first arrived. After the 150 hour break-in period, it continued to sound the same, and never improved. I was quite shocked at just how terrible my R-26 sounded. I tried it as a streamer, as well as just a DAC using a good transport and excellent digital coax cable. The results were the same. I also tried it in a friend's system, with the same poor results. I ended up sending it back to the seller for a full refund. I then purchased a new $800 SMSL DAC (D400EX), which sounds fantastic, and quite a bit more enjoyable than the Benchmark DAC3 that it replaced. I really feel that the new R26 DAC that I received must have been a "lemon" from the factory, for all the reviews on it are very positive. The one I received sounded worse than any of the cheapest $100 CD players from the 1990's that I have ever heard. You may have received one of the "lemons' from Gustard as well. |
@wsrrsw - so no streaming on your "Big Rig"? |
@navyachts +1001 what @soix said. KISS. That's why I was recommending the one box solution. Right now on Audiogone I see a Lumin T3 (new..discounted) an Aurender 200 (good price) and A HiFi Rose (also good price). Entering here may be all you will ever want. Plug, play and chill. To Roon on not to Roon is the question and that done right will also add a few K. I'm a very happy Qobuz user and use Roon for a whole house system but not for the big rig.
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@kairosman - DDC, what are you using and are you using the R26 as a renderer or do you have a separate streamer? |
@soix - great advice, thanks! |
I have the R26 as one of my DACs that I swap in and out of a $60K system, I run it via I2S and/or AES inputs with an external clock and DDC and good quality cabling. Set up properly like this it sounds as good as any of my other more costly DACs - different, but as good. My experience with DACs in my system is every part of the digital source chain contributes to the DAC's performance. The chain is only as good as the weakest link. |
I’d recommend not overcomplicating this upfront and just start with the streamer and decent USB cable and see how that works for you. The upgraded power supply, clock, etc. can all be added later and give you something to look forward to for further meaningful improvements down the road. |
@curiousjim - Belden 5000 UE 12 AWG - 4 feet long with locking bananas. |
@sejodiren - I paid $199 for it on Amazon last week, but they must be reading this thread as it just went up $50! Grab it while it's hot: ttps://www.amazon.com/dp/B004UR487A?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
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@riie - $12K, outta my range Captain, but thanks. |
