Determining current flow to install "audiophile" fuses.
There are 4 fuses in my Odyssey Stratos amp. I recently returned some AMR fuses because they rolled off the highs and lows a little too much for me. Mids were excellent though. Anyway, I'm getting ready to try the Hi-Fi Tuning Classic Gold fuses, as they are on clearance now for $10/ea. Are they any good? However, I have read that they are a directional fuse? Can anyone confirm this? If that is the case, does anyone know the current flow for the Odyssey Stratos? Or, does anyone know how figure out current flow by opening up the top and looking at the circuitry?
These guys are shilling, with this voodoo stuff to suck in the gullible, who have no idea about AC (alternating current) mains theory.
They are relying on "expectation bias" (+1 Ralph) with the gullible not to send the 10c fuses back for their $100 refund.
Even if 50% are sent back, that a hell of a profit still, then that 50% gets resold, not even as used stock, eventually all are sold, with a massive profit margin in the end.
Quick way to make a fast million with very little outlay, probably even better than getting in on the ground floor of Apple shares.
This is an interesting thread and very entertaining to boot.
What occurred to me after plodding half way through was that it reminded me of a debate I once heard between a believer and an atheist. At one point the atheist got quite upset because he just couldn't convince the believer that a Higher Power couldn't exist. Eventually, the atheist started exuding a very hateful diatribe. It occurred to me at that point that he was spouting hate against a God that he claimed didn't exist.
Okay, with the above said, as most of you know, I'm a real advocate of the SR Black fuses. They have literally transformed my audio system.
Here's my disclaimer ... I have NO technical training in electronics. When it comes to math, I have a hard time with simple arithmetic. I am so old that I'm still amazed that airplanes can fly without propellers. HOWEVER, I DO KNOW WHAT I HEAR.
I've been in the audio hobby for almost 50 years. I've had a crap-load of different equipment in the system over these years. It has ranged from simple receivers to Ralph's OTL amps ... to my current all ARC system. Its ranged from a simple Altec horn speaker for a mono system, to huge electrostatic panels. .I've been through the modified Dynas and the other vintage electronics. I know when the sound is improved, or when its degraded. If you asked me WHY something works or doesn't work, I haven't a clue. And guess what ... I don't care. I'm in it for the music .. and the music only. The upgrades only get me closer to the music .. and that's the ONLY thing I care about.
Here's what I do know ... fuse upgrades make a significant difference. I went from stock fuses to HiFi Tuning fuses ... and the sound improved. From there, I went to the SR Red fuses ... and the sound improved in a MAJOR way. From there, I went to the SR Black fuses ... and the improvement over the SR Red fuses was mind blowing.
After the two SR Black fuses in the CD Player were broken in, I took one out and placed it in my phono stage to replace the SR Red fuse that was in there. The first thing I noticed was that the sound was diffused, like the system was out of phase. So ... I reversed the fuse and wallah! ... back came the focus and the musicality I had before.
So, for all of you "non-believers" out there, you will never convince me that the fuses are not directional, or that fuse upgrades can't make a difference. And why you naysayers rail with so much negativity against fuses that you say won't work, or are not dimensional, is beyond me.
"If someone hears an improvement in their system for a cost of "only" $120....or $174, then great. My current system has 10 fuses, so I could easily spend between $1-2K replacing fuses and I would hope to hear a significant improvement for that money."
I have some good news for you. You can obtain a reasonably big improvement for nothing. Gee, how can I do that?, you ask. Easy, just reverse each of your stock fuses one at a time. You may have to wait a period of time between each audition depending on how long it takes your system to warm up. I recommend not trying auditions with a cold system. Listen after each time you reverse a fuse to see if the sound improves or gets worse. When the fuse is in the correct direction the sound will be noticeably more open, natural sounding and coherent. If the fuse is in the wrong direction the sound will be relatively harsh and thin sounding and less realistic. After you have done that for all 10 fuses you will have considerably better sound than you started out with. You have my guarantee. Go on the assumption that 5 of the 10 fuses are in the wrong direction, but it could be a little more or a little less. If you can’t tell if the sound improves or gets worse for a particular fuse leave it as is and proceed to the next fuse. After you have auditioned all ten fuses you can repeat the process to see if you might have guessed wrong on a fuse or two. This whole exercise should be especially revealing since you have 10 fuses,
Why, it's as if just bringing up the subject of controlled blind testing is supposed to scare the fuse affectionados into submission.
Don't be scared Geoff, defender of all things unexplainable. This fuse issue has been discussed ad nauseam. We have heard the science, and how the delta in the resistance offered by different fuses, or by changing the fuse direction, is miniscule, and likely less than the difference of increasing the length of your speaker cables by one inch, for example. We have heard from respected equipment designers, and others, whose dissenting opinions have been disavowed. Mostly, we have heard about the profound sonic improvement these
aftermarket/boutique
fuses offer to those who have replaced the previous version of such fuses with the latest version, or to those who have replaced stock fuses (aghast!) with "audiophile approved" fuses. More power to them.
If someone hears a profound improvement in their system for a cost of "only" $120....or $174, then great. My current system has 10 fuses, so I could easily spend between $1-2K replacing fuses and I would hope to hear a significant improvement for that money. I just purchased new amplifiers and if I switched back to my previous amplifier, I could tell you every time which amplifier is in the system, blindfolded or not. Why should a simple test to determine the reliability of sonic differences between fuses be so scary? Why wouldn't those spending over $100 per fuse want to know if they are really hearing a difference? Is the emperor not wearing clothes?
"Expectation bias expectation bias is no doubt a factor. I did the audiophile fuse thing recently with a synergistic red fuse in my arc sp 16 recently using a fuse given to me to try. I thought I heard some difference with that versus stock fuse at first but could not be certain after repeated tries. Reversing directions did nothing. I wanted to hear something but did not feel compelled to having been given the fuse."
Your lack of success with the Red fuse and with fuse directionality is duly noted.
Lol Your test procedure is even more complicated than The Amazing Randi’s Million Dollar Challenge test procedure and that’s saying something. If you’re so high on your test why not do it yourself? Let us know how it works out.
Now I understand. The ability to hear differences between fuses and between directionality of fuses is limited to those having paranormal abilities. Maybe Randi's test should have been to choose the best sounding between two fuses, without hearing them.
I can also understand how listening to two fuses and choosing which one sounds better would be a "complicated" procedure to someone who possesses a supernatural ability to intrinsically and immediately select the better sounding fuse.
I don't do it myself because I don't hear a discernable difference between fuses, but I am open to trying to understand, just not so open to BS.
Beside my clients I knew many people who already used it. My sceptical thoughts made me wait so long.
My sceptical thoughts were based on nothing. Because I never tested it. Ronald Kemp gave me several times fuses to test. But I never wanted them to test. And now I have to admit that it was a big mistake of me not have tested it earlier.
It is not a substantial difference, because in audio you have many of these. No....it makes a big improvement.
Some clients of mine became even irritated why manufacturers use cheap fuses who cost about 10 dollar cent. I even contacted a few to talk about it.
They said; we know it can make a good difference but we create a source or amp based on the all the costs we have to pay.
Even when you would spend the same money on a better interconnect you are not able to get this advantage. This was what many of my clients said to me.
Audio is always about comparing and what will I get for improvement for the money I spend. And in my perspective you need to give each client the best improvement for the money they spend.
It doesn't matter how it is created, you want them to get the best for the money possible!
The Maxiimus is the same. When I use a number a person knows well I first let him hear the song without the Maxiimus and after this the same song with the Maxiimus. This difference is so big, even people get irritated. They say; how can I go listening to mu music without it.
This is an example that the device sells itself. And that is what the best fuses do as well.
Beside the good stuff I still find that over 95% of all products in audio shops are not worth the money. This screws the audio market for many people. It creates sceptical people and I understand why.
In the Netherlands there are some brands who say to shops that they are not allowed to sell some brands. This is getting more common, this is a big concern I think.
Let your own ears do the work, and you will find out what it does for you.
"Much discussion here about trusting your ears and how science cannot explain everything and yet, I am skeptical about the level of sonic difference (if any) that can be attributed to changing a fuse. I am exponentially more skeptical about those who claim to clearly hear sonic differences between the installation direction of a fuse.
Have any of you who hear these differences ever really put that belief to the test? I don’t mean changing the fuse and then proclaiming how the sonic difference/improvement is clearly evident but rather a more challenging method of testing your ability to ascertain differences or improvements after changing a fuse?
Here is a challenge;
1. Select two fuses that can be easily identified (e.g. Red and Black, etc.) 2. Insert one of the fuses in whichever of your equipment you believe displays the greatest sonic impact from changing the fuse 3. Listen for a reasonably extended period of hours to days using a variety of your familiar music, and take notes so you have a record of how the fuse sounds to you, and then repeat with the second fuse - keep track of which fuse is which in your notes 4. Enlist the help of a spouse or friend to install one of the two fuses and keep a record of which fuse is installed, but do not let them tell you which it is (for the test, make sure your spouse/friend installs the fuses in the same direction as you did under steps 2 and 3) 5. Listen again for a similar extended period, compare what you hear with your initial two sets of listening notes and then write down which fuse you believe is installed 6. Repeat this process at least 5 times with the spouse/friend switching, or perhaps sometimes not switching, fuses but using each of the two fuses a nearly equal amount of times 7. At the end, let us know how many times you correctly identified which fuse was installed
If the differences between fuses are as profound as described in this thread, then I suspect many of you will guess correctly every time. I would be curious to hear how you make out, and even more curious how you you do using the same procedure applied to the directionality of one fuse...any takers....Geoff?"
You’re kidding, right? It was only a matter of time before controlled blind testing reared it’s ugly head on this thread. I’m kind of surprised it hasn’t been brought up before now. Why, it's as if just bringing up the subject of controlled blind testing is supposed to scare the fuse affectioados into submission. Lol Your test procedure is even more complicated than The Amazing Randi’s Million Dollar Challenge test procedure and that’s saying something. If you’re so high on your test why not do it yourself? Let us know how it works out.
I said to all my clients when you are not convinced send them back and You get your money returned. I never got any fuse back. Often people called me back and were amazed by the differences.
We care not talking about a small difference because then I would have got some back for sure. Even in subwo0ofers they make a big difference.
Most manufacturers of amps, pre amps and sources use cheap internal wiring. Here it is very easy to make a big difference.
Much discussion here about trusting your ears and how science cannot explain everything and yet, I am skeptical about the level of sonic difference (if any)
that can be attributed to changing a fuse. I am exponentially more skeptical about those who claim to clearly hear sonic differences between the installation direction of a fuse.
Have any of you who hear these differences ever really put that belief to the test? I don't mean changing the fuse and then proclaiming how the sonic difference/improvement is clearly evident but rather a more challenging method of testing your ability to ascertain differences or improvements after changing a fuse?
Here is a challenge;
1. Select two fuses that can be easily identified (e.g. Red and Black, etc.) 2. Insert one of the fuses in whichever of your equipment you believe displays the greatest sonic impact from changing the fuse 3. Listen for a reasonably extended period of hours to days using a variety of your familiar music, and take notes so you have a record of how the fuse sounds to you, and then repeat with the second fuse - keep track of which fuse is which in your notes 4. Enlist the help of a spouse or friend to install one of the two fuses and keep a record of which fuse is installed, but do not let them tell you which it is
(for the test, make sure your spouse/friend installs the fuses in the same direction as you did under steps 2 and 3) 5. Listen again for a similar extended period, compare what you hear with your initial two sets of listening notes and then write down which fuse you believe is installed 6. Repeat this process at least 5 times with the spouse/friend switching, or perhaps sometimes not switching, fuses but using each of the two fuses a nearly equal amount of times 7. At the end, let us know how many times you correctly identified which fuse was installed
If the differences between fuses are as profound as described in this thread, then I suspect many of you will guess correctly every time. I would be curious to hear how you make out, and even more curious how you you do using the same procedure applied to the directionality of one fuse...any takers....Geoff?
First of all the profit is not that impressive. You earn more money on speakers and cables.
Our goal is to create the best results to improve the quality for the lowest costs. We don't focus on what will give the most money.
I give you another example; In 2015 we took many months to compare all the streamers and dacs there are on the market. To find what is the best. There was one brand who stood far above anything. This was Lumin.
So we became Lumin. Most shops in the Netherlands were not interested in Lumin based on the low margin. How stuppid you can be!!
Audio always will be based on those products which are the best. They are the most easiest to sell.
We use shootouts to show that we have the best products. This makes it easy. At th end people want the best, so you need to give them the best they deserve!
In 18 years of time I tested many filters and powercabels. But at this moment there is one device what impressed me the most regarding electricity. It is called Maxiimus. Again I was sceptical. But within 30 minutes I called Kemp Electronics to send the invoice.
The difference with or without is so big that you can't live without it.
I had different clients who used fuses already so I knew their stories. But I was sceptical as well. But after some tests I had to admit that I was wrong. Mann it makes a huge difference
In 2015 we started to change the electric cables inside in the houses of cleints and we use the Siemens
Ultimate Cylindric Fuse Cartridge. And creating a group only for audio
I seldom had so many enthousiastic clients about the improvement. Because it is not that expensive.
Most people called it the best investment they ever made in audio.
Beside fuses we also started to change the electric cables inside amps by Audioquest NRG-10 wires. We buy them in bulk and we separate the wires of the NRG-10.
Expectation bias expectation bias is no doubt a factor. I did the audiophile fuse thing recently with a synergistic red fuse in my arc sp 16 recently using a fuse given to me to try. I thought I heard some difference with that versus stock fuse at first but could not be certain after repeated tries. Reversing directions did nothing. I wanted to hear something but did not feel compelled to having been given the fuse.
in any case if there was a difference it was too subtle to be assured of. As it stands I am not seeing the value clearly.
My my only suggestion is for each to report their experiences but realize not all will hear same results. The reports I read including my own experience seems to bear that out. Be Leary of anyone promising anything or attempting to sell their spin as fact.
"Also in order for the experiment to have any validity at all you would have to be able to re create the same situation , over and over and over again. i.e. you should be able to hear that if someone had changed the direction of the fuse without your knowledge - I’d state that this would be impossible."
Of course it could be a lot of things. It COULD be a change in house AC voltage, it could be a change in the weather, it could be oxidation is removed from the fuse holder, it could be explained by a change in the time from day until late at night, changing something else in the system at the same time of the fuse change, the placebo effect or any number of other things. We already know that. It’s the same for the test of ANYTHING. Do you think audiophiles fell off the turnip truck yesterday? And why is it the skeptics who always accuse audiophiles of doing tests incorrectly never actually roll up their sleeves and do the test themselves? Hmmmmm...
Hello Peter, Yes, this explanation has been suggested before. I've gone back and forth several times with my DAC, Line Stage and amplifier and the differences heard remain consistent. My friend whom I mentioned earlier has a very different system and room compared to mine yet the findings are very similar. The changes are not profound (no need for hyperbole ) but are quite noticeable. As this thread and other past threads have demonstrated, some agree and some don't. I have nothing more to offer. Charles,
How can you be sure that it was the fuse "direction" that made the change in your systems sound, in order to change the fuse you will have to shut down the system then power it back up again then wait for it to return to a fully equalized stage again then make judgement. This powering down / up, the resetting of connectors including then ones on the fuse holder it self will have MUCH larger effect on sound than in which direction the fuse is installed and is probably the real reason that theres is some if any difference in sound.
Also in order for the experiment to have any validity at all you would have to be able to re create the same situation , over and over and over again. i.e. you should be able to hear that if someone had changed the direction of the fuse without your knowledge - I'd state that this would be impossible.
I have observed Audiogon forums with great interest for some time, but have never been motivated to participate until now. Although skeptical, I remain open-minded re. fuses, having never tried them.
When I was young, my dad offered up many pearls of wisdom. For example, he often told me "if you had another brain it would be lonesome". An astute observation as it turns out. Once we had a dog that barked incessantly. When I asked my dad why, he said "he just likes to hear his head roar."
There is much head roaring going on regarding fuse directionality. You dogs know who you are. Quite a pack! Sorry I couldn't be more positive. By the way, I would guess that these dogs bark loudly and carry a little stick.
Jmski, "Ears rule" well that's how it goes for me as well. I have upmost respect for the technical knowledge and contributions of Al and Ralph, this is without question. I make no attempt to explain fuse direction effects, I'm unqualified to do so. I do trust what I hear in my system and accept that I lack any technical justification. If some want to attribute this to expectation bias, okay fine.
For what ever the reason may be there is a difference in sound when fuse directions are reversed. I hear it easily in my system (8 watt SET amplifier ) and my friend's system using a 300 watt Krell amplifier. Why? I don't know, I hear it and my friend easily hears the same sonic changes. I do know man has observed many phenomenon for many years before science could reasonably offer an explanation.
So I'll leave the arguments to others and just enjoy and appreciate what I hear. "Ears rule" applies for me. Best Re6, Charles,
I bought HiFi Tuning's Supreme fuses ($50-$80 each) and they did make a difference in sound quality, not huge, but good. When I got them I asked some very knowledgeable technical people including the place I bought them (The Cable Company) if the fuses were directional, and they all said fuses are non-directional ("they change direction 60 times a second"). Nonetheless I experimented with changing their direction, and did find a small but significant difference. Go figure. Ears rule.
"Naw, it was to imply that there’s no real answer here that can be agreed upon."
Let’s just write the whole thing off as another one of those controversial things that get audiophiles’ goat. If someone didn’t come along many years after Einstein published his General relativity theory and demonstrate that gravity bends light the science community would still be scratching it’s rather pointed head and muttering the same thing, "There is no real answer that can be agreed upon." Not to mention LIGO finally observed gravity waves from a merger of two monster black holes just a couple months ago, confirming Einstein's prediction - 100 years after the fact.
Seeing this directional fuse c**p is down to internal component level GK, you should take it over the "Tech Talk " forum, where the the tech heads will definitely tell you which way to insert it.
"It’s easy to label someone a skeptic if they disagree with something, anything."
There are skeptics who believe the US carried out the attacks of 911 and they have lots of "evidence" to back it up. Ditto the moon landing. I would probably label them pseudo skeptics.
Mapman also wrote,
"Best to avoid labels but that won’t stop people with agendas."
My agenda is to uncover the truth that has been buried by people with agendas.
"BTW, Geoff has said at least one thing in this thread that I agree with, although he did not originate the saying. From one of his posts above: Keep an open mind but not so open your brain falls out."
That's true, I did not originate the saying. Skeptics did. That’s what Skeptics always say, you know, as if the thing in question is too preposterous to grasp or accept or disobeys some Law of Physics or another. It just turns out that aftermarket fuses and fuse directionality seem to push all the right Skeptic buttons. Lol Which is I why I posted that particular little gem of a Skeptics creedo. Of course, skeptics actually never investigate the claims they rail against. It’s almost as if they’re afraid of the truth. Frankly I don’t really believe they’re particularly open minded, now that you mention it. They kind of pretend to be open minded. At the risk of being repetitive, here’s the bit from the intro to Zen and the Art of Debunkery that seem to apply rather well here,
"As the millennium turns, science seems in many ways to be treading the weary path of the religions it presumed to replace. Where free, dispassionate inquiry once reigned, emotions now run high in the defense of a fundamentalized "scientific truth." As anomalies mount up beneath a sea of denial, defenders of the Faith and the Kingdom cling with increasing self-righteousness to the hull of a sinking paradigm. Faced with provocative evidence of things undreamt of in their philosophy, many otherwise mature scientists revert to a kind of skeptical infantilism characterized by blind faith in the absoluteness of the familiar. Small wonder, then, that so many promising fields of inquiry remain shrouded in superstition, ignorance, denial, disinformation, taboo . . . and debunkery."
"If folks believed in too much rather than too little they would be much better off generally." - PT Barnum
It is supported only by expectation bias; anyone who really wants to get to the bottom of it will find that if they try reversing the fuse again after finding the ’favorable’ direction, will find a similar benefit in the other direction. That is if they keep an open mind.
"Expectation bias" I totally agree.
Then unbelievable improvements heard like this that just suck the gullible into purchasing these $100 "super fuses" That the supporters of these fuses pat on the back for hearing such great fantastic differences.
Now, with substantial hours in and all-SR Black fuses in the amp, here’s what my ears hear (forgive my lack of audiophile vocabulary, I’ll just describe it as best I can):
- Improved instrument separation, placement, and 3-dimensionality
- Perception of more immediacy and "smack/oomph"
- Lower, tighter, punchier bass
- Overall just a better sense of musicality
- I feel there was a very, very subtle loss of realism in instrument/vocal texture.
Ralph graciously acknowledged his customers were adamant regarding positive results with upgrade level fuses. They had no comments in regard to fuse directional properties. George I understand your position concerning fuses, that has nothing to do with some of Ralhp's customers. Not everyone shares the same viewpointas you. Charles,
Nothing there about sound improvement in Ralph’s post. Just the the mention of build quality regarding the Teflon support tube that stops the resistance wire from moving too much with every switch on. That could eventually break because of self hardening. That’s all.
Hello Ralph, I'm pleased that you acknowledge and respect the listening impressions of your customers regarding premium fuses rather than belittling their informed feedback to you. Good quality audio components exploit the impact of these fuses. Charles,
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