Design a $60,000 Speaker - Start here

There are a lot of great speakers out there . For most people way out of possibilities unless they win the big ones. I gave owned almost every type of driver, and type since the 70s. Lately I  just purchased Martin  logans totally 
Redesigned top  series the 11--A  which has  dual powered drivers per cabinet 
24 bit DSP and room correction.These  Electrostatic speakers are far better then 
Even 5 years ago. Myself being into modding and these have all electronics in their own tray under the bass only 3 capacitors, which I am already looking into 
Upgrading. ML have a 30 degree curve ,making sweet spot very similar yo s conventional speaker . If you have not heard these setup with Anthem room correction then you have not heard them at their best at $10-k  for the least expensive powered model they compete with speakers much more expensive 
And the speed and transparency are very hard to equal. I sold the larger Sonus faber Olympica-3: for these and  they were pretty well respected.  Everyone likes 
Something  different, and or unconventional. Being an Audiophile can be challenging to keep happy.

Of course the cost of a speaker brand is much bigger than the cost to manufacture a single pair of speakers.

That's not what I meant to say. But rather, this is an important calculation that often appears.

The same type of analysis is done for restaurants where the cost per plate is calculated to be x % of the selling price of the dish. For a decent restaurant this is usually expected to be no more than 25-33%, and everyone who uses it accepts it is nothing but a rough estimate.  Mostly what we know is that if you are charging only 2x your food cost, you are usually going to be loosing a significant amount of money.

It is a fair number, but not precise and subject to a number of moderating factors.

Best,

E

The point of my cost breakdown post is to illustrate that hardware is only one cost component going into the price of a speaker. Hardware won’t necessarily be the main determinant or best predictor of final cost or the price performance ratio of the unit.

2  European drivers per aluminum cabinet.  Charge 60k 

Designing well-braced cabinets that work within the constraints of baffle-step is one thing.  The use of top-notch drivers is another point.  But it has been my personal experience that developing a good crossover is probably 75% of the effort and 90% of the actual time spent developing the system. 

A truly wonderful system capable of a very wide dynamic and frequency response range can be developed using a total of around $1200 of drivers, maybe less.  The crossover components will likely cost around $400 - $600 if simple crossovers are used.  But the crossover MUST take into account all the other facets of the system.  Voicing the speakers and maintaining timing and "pulse coherence" will be the biggest hurdle. 

60k??

how much are Sound Labs these days?

or the new Quads?

or Kii??

or cheap out and buy 20.7 Maggies

will a 60k speaker really sound better than the above?  will the result be room dependant?   or are you just trading one distortion for another?

you could buy one of the 4 above and then use the rest to build a facia with a $60,000 sticker on it...

This would be a great MBA program exercise.
Off the top of my head, major cost categories to consider:

R&D (including any licensing fees)
Raw materials (drivers, electronics, cabinetry etc.)
Manufacturing
Warehousing
Distribution
Promotion (advertising, dealer incentives, etc.)
Warranty support
Financing (unless the business owner is independently wealthy, there’s going to be a note to pay off! ;-)

Each of these major categories can be further subdivided and refined.

Ttl. Costs/(1-Target Profit Margin*)=Selling Price

*as decimal per cent

I wish I knew more about driver manufacturing. I mean, is there a show where I can go and buy a woofer press? :)


Erik

@erik_squires   

I think we agree. There are advantages and disadvantages to each business model in different industries.

So I think the very issues you raise about performance or the best is a determining factor in choice to go integrated or not. If you can't make a better mouse trap then it makes sense to use the best mouse trap that fits nicely within your design philosophy. 

I strongly suspect that those making certain in house drivers for their speakers are doing so because they can't find a better mouse trap that works well or it is too costly to ask an OEM to make a special run of drivers just for a limited high performance application. OEM are going to chase high volumes with low margins or low volumes with very high margins.....it is just economics.

Oooh, no.

As a manufacturer, I need to sell these speakers for $30k / pair, which means I must spend no more than around $10k to make them, including labor and packaging.

Let’s not even get into top end Copper Foil capacitors!

Of course, my goal is to spend no money at all, and sell you speakers, so I will engage a marketing and sales team to separate the retail price from manufacturing cost as much as possible. That’s where the profit lives.

Best,

E

@shadorne

That’s fine, but vertical integration:

- No guarantee of best parts
- No more or less incentive to have spares on hand than driver makers IMHO.

Pros:
- Hides cost and makes comparisons with other makers much harder.
- Increases profit margin for manufacturer.

There are some manufacturers that are vertically integrated I like a lot more than others. As a business owner however, I absolutely would want to be integrated. As a consumer, meh, I am going to build my own anyway. :)

I think that this is very often the goal. If you look at JM Lab / Focal for instance, it started as 3 different companies. A cabinet maker, a driver maker, and a loud speaker manufacturer (either JM Lab or Focal, forgot which was which). All three in close proximity in France. I believe cooperation and alignment allowed this merger to eventually take place.

Their strategist is a brilliant guy who focuses on increasing brand value in the minds of consumers and drives design towards this goal with all his energy, quite successfully.


Best,

E

Or you could buy some high-quality vintage drivers.  Let's see, a matched pair of Jensen M18 field coil woofers with Western Electric power supplies would be nice, but then that would eat up your entire $60K budget. 

@erik_squires     

I don't know about Magico but modifying a mass market driver doesn't sound like engineering but more like tweaking. If a run of special drivers is made for them by the OEM then what happens when they run out - owners are left with no spare parts...no problem on a $500 speaker or $300 lawn mower but not good on something more costly that is meant to last decades.

Vertical integration allows companies to support their products for a lifetime which is a different philosophy and a different target customer. Obviously this  should be important to speaker owners in $10,000+ speaker market as it could be frustrating to find that your beautiful speaker is only good for the landfill after only 5 years and a costly mistake that blew up a couple of drivers....

Vertically integrated companies should have all the tools and equipment in house to make replacement parts long after those who use entirely outsourced manufacturers have long run out of spares. It is a very different philosophy with long term horizons with customers that do not intend to replace their equipment for possibly a lifetime....

Also, sorry should have been more clear:

I've never listened to Tektons. I meant the price/parts ratio is very good.

I'm talking about consumer parts here. JBL/ATC/TAD have what we may consider outrageous priced drivers intended for high power/continuous duty.

Better? I know of at least one mega movie score producer who gave up on his mega speakers because he could only hear them when played loud.

Listening style matters, as does lack of compression in normal use.

Best,


E

missioncoonery,
 
Yes you are correct I'm proud to be the Tekton's #1 cheerleader but with no vested difference.

The difference between me and you,is even though I get out and about and listen to all kinds of top speakers and if I Remember correctly you have never heard any Tekton's.

I have absolutely no need for spl's above 100db peaks at my listening position 10 ft away,I have taken care of my hearing all these yrs and can still hear above 15k.

Remember my budget for speakers could easily be 40k but I hear and see no reason to spend that much.

With all that being said I most definitely take anything you say with a grain of salt as well.

The Vivid speakers that I have heard were harsh from 2k in frequency on up and basically ran me right out of the room.

They do have a really cool style to them though.

Kenny.

I wanted to emphasize, this thread was just to talk about one way to get to a $60k price point. Not that it would sound good, of 30X better than a $2k pair of speakers. :) 

Shadorne,

Making your own drivers can go either way. Magico's hybrid approach is a very good one I think. They get very good motors from top tier makers, and apply innovative materials. 

For sure, it helps keep you out of the commodity speaker market / mindset of DIYers and audiophiles. 

Best,

E

While I did want to talk about prices of drivers, and how this drives speaker cost (more or less) I think we need to be very careful in ascribing quality or worthiness to a driver based on this alone.

While Accuton has amazing tech, I have never listened to an Accuton speaker I would love to listen to every day, all day. They are NOT my brand. That is a personal / hearing thing. It may also be who is attracted to building them, but every design I have heard is a little too hot for my ears.

You don’t want to be the listener who trains him/her self to listen for expensive. You want to listen for musical and enjoyable for your listening style and environment. Then you can find amazing values. Monitor Audio is one of those brands, but there are others.

Let me talk about a line of tweeters (ring radiators) to give a good example. The Scanspeak R2605 / Peerless XT25. They are not exactly clones but prices are comparable. The SS is slightly better in distortion. At around $40 - $60 each it occupies a price just above "bargain."

You will find this tweeter in designs (some now old) from Polk, YG Acoustics, Krell, Magico, Sonus Faber, and of course my own two free kits. Truth is it is a fantastic tweeter, at this price point. Compare the best Be drivers run around $500 each, with diamond around $1,500 each.

This is definitely a tweeter you could say "Oh, well that’s crap, it cost under $100" or you can shut up and listen.

@erik_squires   

+1 yes Tekton is excellent value for its performance and so is my Golf R but my Golf R is not a McLaren P1 and I would not begin to make comparisons of that sort as the Golf R is just not in the same league

Also Making speaker drivers allow you to make the very best - not just a marketing thing.

About Tekton - 

I really really wish people would stop attacking them. I think their price point is good and design innovative. I can point to at least one store brand that IMHO sucks, uses cheaper parts than Tekton and is the absolute darling of Stereophile and many here. 

Tekton offers very good price performance with innovative features. They should be evaluated on their merits.

Best,

E

I don’t think Monitor Audio and Accuton are comparable in terms of build cost.

Still, I am a big fan of Monitor Audio, and think that their price point is far too low for the build quality and design.

Making your own drivers is also a great marketing /cost cutting strategy. Since you make them, no one can compare driver costs like you can in say a WIlson or B&O or Sony, or an all Accuton speaker. Focal, B&W and Monitor Audio all take advantage of this somewhat. 

Best,

E

ATC drivers have cost that much for years. ATC got started with the Supertramp tours back in the 70’s providing the best woofers available at that time for their live stadium performances.

There is definitely a market for overbuilt drivers just as there is a market for muscle cars or any other extremes required in performance applications.

For those who say it isn’t worth it or it isn’t great value - you are absolutely right - this kind of performance is rarely or hardly necessary in most domestic homes. However, for those passionate about sound quality and ultra low distortion at realistic SPL then these type drivers are the ticket to a whole other level of ultra-high performance.

Oh, I very much doubt the sound quality of your "cheap Tekton DI" woofers will hang together when driven hard in the same way this driver will perform. At moderate levels you could well be right but there is high fidelity and then there is truly HIGH FIDELITY and sometimes the difference can be as little as 3% at moderate levels or an extra 6db to 9db in clean SPL.

A $50 eminence woofer (like in my guitar cabinets and stage monitors) is simply not going to be able to compete with this Accuton at $1400 but for sure the Accuton wont be 28 times better at 28 times the price. This shouldn’t surprise anyone who knows about these things -diminishing returns....

So putting this together into say a modest 3 way with all drivers from the same company and of the same level, I estimate around $6k / pair of speakers for the drivers alone. Add the normal markups, and this is a $60k speaker.

The same driver array like a Monitor Audio PL-500 will make it well over 100k!

Erik,

I would say magico speakers falls into this category of speakers and look at their cabinet construction.

Off the charts in the coolness factor,
Sound quality that was only 3% better in some respects than my cheap Tekton DI's but at a cost much higher.
I'm referring to the q3's that I listened to and almost bought.

Just my opinion.
Kenny.