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Hey Teo, that’s kind of a long and meandering post, and makes it hard to respond to. Let me see if I can address two of them: - Yes, speakers with one or two 7" woofer’s are in the sweet spot of affordability, credible bass and above most dangerous room modes.
- The acoustics and improvement of bass in consumer listening rooms is very well understood, but not by most consumers, or even most Hi Fi dealers.
Best, E |
Re Wilson Benesch:
This is a 2.5 way speaker system, with an isobaric woofer. Moderately interesting.
The woofer has 2x the motor strength, and the configuration minimizes asymmetry. The 2.5 way helps eliminate baffle step issues, and improves sensitivity. The 0.5 way indicates the mid has no low pass filter, and the woofers add additional bass.
As for "real engineering" well, OK then. I think it's creative, and drivers sure look pretty. I have never heard a pair.
I discount ANY literature that claims small drivers are the way to get deep, low distortion bass however, but still, a 2.5 way with 7" drivers is probably pretty well balanced.
Best,
E
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Well, it's a different thing to talk about how you get speakers into stratospheric price points than saying everyone can build a world-class speaker.
However, it helps to have an ear that is independent of Stereophile reviews, and price tags. Then you can pick out real gems for cheap.
My philosophy: I don't want to drink a good $300 bottle of wine. I want to drink a $20 bottle of wine that tastes just as good.
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Teo:
The other side of the coin is using tweeters that are deliberately ragged. By emphasizing narrow bands, it can seem like you are getting more details. And you are, but at the cost of other bands.
This is a particularly good way to sell a pair of speakers. Compare to a neutral system, you’ll suddenly discover new notes! Well, it’s artificial. << sigh >>
Compare say Magico on one side and Wilson on the other. Magico is bright (to me), but smooth as glass.
But buy what you want. :)
Best,
E
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This brings up another kind of interesting / lopsided issue around audio. The cost of tweeters.
Wilson is one of the few companies that keeps this more or less in balance (again, not promoting, not a fan). The cost of high-end tweeters is kind of astronomical, and lopsided especially when you consider how LITTLE sound actually comes out of a tweeter. A tweeter may cover 3-4 octaves at most, but often commands half or more of the driver cost.
In my own speakers, I ended up spending $500/tweeter but only around $240/mid-woofer.
I think that if you slap Be on any speaker you can increase the value perception and retail price of it, regardless of whether it's any good or not. Same for Daimond, and even AMT.
From what I've seen, Wilson loves bass and he spends his money there, getting progressively less expensive as the frequency range goes up. Not a bad approach really.
In the case of the Tidal diamond and midranges though, that's probably 75% of the driver cost. Astronomical.
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Re: Tidal: They are also using real diamond (not diamond powder) tweeter and midrange. This adds a great deal to the basic part cost. Now ask me if a diamond midrange and tweeter are better than the best Be or AMT's. Answer is, I have no idea. :) The best AMT and Be tweeters are unbelievably good. http://www.accuton.com/en/products/speakersystems/diamant-driver/Best, E |
@atmasphere
Wut? I missed a few posts that would put your question into context.
E
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It is also very very bad for business if your customers focus on COGS. You want them to focus on value. In that are things bigger than technical performance. Modernity, aesthetics, sound decision making, exclusivity. Lots of reasons to buy a car/speaker/house or eat at a particular restaurant.
I'm not attacking anyone, it just is what it is.
Thanks for the list of driver makers I was not aware of by the way, very cool. :)
Best,
E
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@ctsooner
Not sure why you are interjecting Vandersteen and this thread and me personally together. Seems a bit of a word salad. I mean, I'm sure Vandersteen makes fine products, but you seem to be replying to something I don't remember saying. I have no reason to disparage or undermine them.
I don't think my point was that there was just 1 way to do anything. I just think this is an interesting way to look at speaker construction and costs.
Vandersteen should do everything they can to minimize costs while improving quality. In my own field that is how I work. Increasing the COGS for its own sake is a bad way to do business.
Best,
E
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I never meant this thread to be how to design a "good sounding" speaker by the way. :) Just one that would retail for lots of cash.
Hahahaha. :)
Erik
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Of course the cost of a speaker brand is much bigger than the cost to manufacture a single pair of speakers.
That's not what I meant to say. But rather, this is an important calculation that often appears.
The same type of analysis is done for restaurants where the cost per plate is calculated to be x % of the selling price of the dish. For a decent restaurant this is usually expected to be no more than 25-33%, and everyone who uses it accepts it is nothing but a rough estimate. Mostly what we know is that if you are charging only 2x your food cost, you are usually going to be loosing a significant amount of money.
It is a fair number, but not precise and subject to a number of moderating factors.
Best,
E
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I wish I knew more about driver manufacturing. I mean, is there a show where I can go and buy a woofer press? :)
Erik
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Oooh, no.
As a manufacturer, I need to sell these speakers for $30k / pair, which means I must spend no more than around $10k to make them, including labor and packaging.
Let’s not even get into top end Copper Foil capacitors!
Of course, my goal is to spend no money at all, and sell you speakers, so I will engage a marketing and sales team to separate the retail price from manufacturing cost as much as possible. That’s where the profit lives.
Best,
E
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@shadorne
That’s fine, but vertical integration:
- No guarantee of best parts
- No more or less incentive to have spares on hand than driver makers IMHO.
Pros:
- Hides cost and makes comparisons with other makers much harder.
- Increases profit margin for manufacturer.
There are some manufacturers that are vertically integrated I like a lot more than others. As a business owner however, I absolutely would want to be integrated. As a consumer, meh, I am going to build my own anyway. :)
I think that this is very often the goal. If you look at JM Lab / Focal for instance, it started as 3 different companies. A cabinet maker, a driver maker, and a loud speaker manufacturer (either JM Lab or Focal, forgot which was which). All three in close proximity in France. I believe cooperation and alignment allowed this merger to eventually take place.
Their strategist is a brilliant guy who focuses on increasing brand value in the minds of consumers and drives design towards this goal with all his energy, quite successfully.
Best,
E
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Also, sorry should have been more clear:
I've never listened to Tektons. I meant the price/parts ratio is very good.
I'm talking about consumer parts here. JBL/ATC/TAD have what we may consider outrageous priced drivers intended for high power/continuous duty.
Better? I know of at least one mega movie score producer who gave up on his mega speakers because he could only hear them when played loud.
Listening style matters, as does lack of compression in normal use.
Best,
E
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I wanted to emphasize, this thread was just to talk about one way to get to a $60k price point. Not that it would sound good, of 30X better than a $2k pair of speakers. :)
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Shadorne,
Making your own drivers can go either way. Magico's hybrid approach is a very good one I think. They get very good motors from top tier makers, and apply innovative materials.
For sure, it helps keep you out of the commodity speaker market / mindset of DIYers and audiophiles.
Best,
E |
While I did want to talk about prices of drivers, and how this drives speaker cost (more or less) I think we need to be very careful in ascribing quality or worthiness to a driver based on this alone.
While Accuton has amazing tech, I have never listened to an Accuton speaker I would love to listen to every day, all day. They are NOT my brand. That is a personal / hearing thing. It may also be who is attracted to building them, but every design I have heard is a little too hot for my ears.
You don’t want to be the listener who trains him/her self to listen for expensive. You want to listen for musical and enjoyable for your listening style and environment. Then you can find amazing values. Monitor Audio is one of those brands, but there are others.
Let me talk about a line of tweeters (ring radiators) to give a good example. The Scanspeak R2605 / Peerless XT25. They are not exactly clones but prices are comparable. The SS is slightly better in distortion. At around $40 - $60 each it occupies a price just above "bargain."
You will find this tweeter in designs (some now old) from Polk, YG Acoustics, Krell, Magico, Sonus Faber, and of course my own two free kits. Truth is it is a fantastic tweeter, at this price point. Compare the best Be drivers run around $500 each, with diamond around $1,500 each.
This is definitely a tweeter you could say "Oh, well that’s crap, it cost under $100" or you can shut up and listen.
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About Tekton -
I really really wish people would stop attacking them. I think their price point is good and design innovative. I can point to at least one store brand that IMHO sucks, uses cheaper parts than Tekton and is the absolute darling of Stereophile and many here.
Tekton offers very good price performance with innovative features. They should be evaluated on their merits.
Best,
E |
I don’t think Monitor Audio and Accuton are comparable in terms of build cost.
Still, I am a big fan of Monitor Audio, and think that their price point is far too low for the build quality and design.
Making your own drivers is also a great marketing /cost cutting strategy. Since you make them, no one can compare driver costs like you can in say a WIlson or B&O or Sony, or an all Accuton speaker. Focal, B&W and Monitor Audio all take advantage of this somewhat.
Best,
E |
