Denefrips Pontus "burn in" period?

On the Bluesound:

Go to SETTINGS.  Then select AUDIO.  Then you’ll see AUDIO CLOCK TRIM.

Set Audio Clock Trim to OFF.

I saw this somewhere and wanted to pass this on to you. I think it was on the Vinshine website, if I’m not mistaken.

Since making the change to USB, I am now very happy with the improved sound as compared to my other Dacs.

Glad to hear, @jin78 !

Alvin @ Vinshine Audio

@sudnh thanks for pointing this out, I moved my project DAC to my living room system, so it's still very much in use paired up with some old Dynaco amps. I looked it up, price seems pretty reasonable if it works really good. I wonder if this would work or improve on the Bluesound node that I'm using as a streamer only?

The project dac s2 plus is a really good dac at its price. I own it and added the ifi elite power supply and that was a further huge improvement and lowered the noise floor and removed glare (edgy sound) and added clarity. 
 

I recently compared it to a loaner chord qutest (fully broken in). 
While the qutest had a bit more inner detail and expansive soundstage the dac s2 plus had clearer and more extended highs and a more lively sound, less laid back compared to the qutest.  
 

the ifi elite power supply made less of a difference with the qutest as compared to the s2 plus. 

I am keeping the dac s2 with ifi elite power supply for now  

I have not yet heard any of the denafrips dacs.

I recommend you try the ifi elite power supply on your project dac s2 plus  

the ifi elite power supply takes the s2 plus to a new level of sound  

Yes, I also faced the same problem! It looks like there is something similar to the correct answer https://sirinsoftware.com/

So its been a handful of days, more "break in" happening, and a couple emails with Alvin @ Vinshine. He was kind enough to answer my questions rather quickly, I can only imagine how many emails this man has to answer from noobs like myself, god bless him. 

So here's my understanding:

The Bluesound Node ( I have the latest version with USB connection) might have something funky going on with the coax and Toslink outs that just doesn't jive with the Pontus Dac (maybe other denefrips dacs, too) The Pontus just cant make the info it is receiving from coax and Toslink outs on the Node sound as good compared to when it is receiving from the USB out, like it can't correct the information properly. "If the signal that's feeding into the DAC is of poor quality, the DENAFRIPS DAC can't correct the information". I went back and forth and the difference is NOT subtle. Since "the USB, on the other hand, is asynchronous, the data retrieval is based on the clock of the DAC" , the Pontus now takes full control of re-clocking and correcting the info on its own, producing a superior sound quality.  That is the answer.

So in my estimation, if you are using a bluesound Node to feed a denfrips dac, unless you are using the USB OUT on the newer version, you are NOT getting the full potential out of this pairing. Obviously, there are better streamers that will produce better results, but if you are using a node, make sure its the new one with the USB, or strongly consider upgrading. That's just my $.02.

Since making the change to USB, I am now very happy with the improved sound as compared to my other Dacs.

Hope this helps. Thank everyone for your advice!

@arafiq I have the new node, and the USB most certainly made a difference. The toslink I had laying around, which was a 3 ft radio shack cheapy, like you said sounded possibly marginally better but not anywhere near the USB. Trying to figure out if this is a weakness of the node or the Pontus itself. Judging by what you're saying most likely it's the blue sound, I have no doubts that the Pontus is a well-built quality piece of gear. 

*break in 🤣

The coax cable is 2 ft long Canare by blue jean cables.

@mr_m exactly. Is this a weakness of the node, the pontus, random, that's what I'm trying to figure out. I've sent out an email to Vinshine. It would be nice to know what this means for my streamer going forward, do I have to move it to my b system and upgrade it or should I be content with just using a USB. Do I have a faulty unit? Did it not burn in long enough?

In my case, the Node 2i and coax connection problem was not limited to a specific DAC. I tried 5 DACs with the Node, and in each case coax was the limiting factor. Toslink was maybe marginally better. IMO, the Bluesound Node is a good starter streamer with a below par DAC, but even as a streamer I feel that it can limit the potential of your DAC. I know it won't sit well with the 'all streamers are the same' crowd but I'm just sharing my experience.

Disclaimer: I had the prior version of the Node 2i (the one without USB out). It is quite possible that the new model has overcome some of the limitations in terms of SQ.

The whole issue of using coax on a Node2/Pontus ll combination is confusing. Why are some having problems and others not?

@jin78 How long is your Coax cable? According to the "tech"
experts here, it should be at least 2 feet long. Some else can
explain the technical details.

it is commonly understood and accepted that the best length for digital coax 75 ohm spdif cable is great than 1.25m, ideally 1.5m - shorter creates potential for unwanted ’reflections’ in the cable given the wavelength of transported waveforms that may confuse the receiver

https://positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm

@jin78 How long is your Coax cable? According to the "tech"
experts here, it should be at least 2 feet long. Some else can
explain the technical details.

Oldhvymec..."i’ve never been real to up date on DACs but gear in general, usually, the better the gear, the longer the break-in. Especially big high voltage boutique caps. 500-1000 hours."

Oh so true...well past you’re 10 days youll hear changes.

@mrdon wasn't looking for validation, was looking for some kind of explanation on why my super high quality deck wasn't sounding that impressive rolling up on day 10. I couldn't get the thing to sound that much different than my project dac or even the internal blue sound node dac. Just wasn't adding up. The major development today was switching out the coax cable for a USB, straight from the blue sound into the Pontus. Huge difference. I can't tell you why, but it's there. More volume, larger sounds stage, deeper, cleaner, less glare etc. This new development has me feeling positive although it's still kind of bugs me that the coax is doing this. Is it a issue with the Pontus? Issue with the blue sound? 

@jin78  I was using a coax cable- a Wireworld from what I remember.

Hi,

I too have the Pontus II and went through the same thing so to speak. I upgraded from the Ares II to Pontus II. It really sounds like you are looking for validation more than anything. Rest assured you made a great choice with the Pontus so sit back and enjoy.

Alvin says 2 weeks straight will get you to 95% 

@fuzztone thanks for the tip, I searched it and everything for sales coming up in British pounds...ha. know any USA dealers?

I have a Pontus with about 50 hours, streaming with the 
current Node. I'm using a DH Labs Silver Sonic Coax.
Once I get about 200 hours on the Pontus, I have a
Wireworld Super Nova Optical I can try for comparison.

This is truly an informative thread.  

This is a SS DAC with R2R ladder and have separate power supplies for each channel. This should sound as good as it can ever be within 10-15 mins after warm up! If it is still not sounding good after 8 days, chances are it is not going to sound any better for the remainder no matter how long it takes.

You may want to change the input from Coax to AES EUB or vice a versa. There are two of each. Try changing the input and see if you hear any changes/improvements. Otherwise, don't get hung up on burn-in time. 

@mazian how did you have your CD player hooked up to the Pontus?

I got a loan Pontus from the distributor, which was well and truly burned in and I still couldn't hear any difference from my Exemplar CD player when running through the Pontus or directly to the preamp.

Now try a decent cheap USB cable like an Atlas Element SC.

@mr_m I'm running Qobuz, but I'm going to play with the optical cable next to see how it compares to USB.

@arafiq That's right you did mention that. which kind of sucks because I really like  the BluOS interface! To be honest with you, it's already sounding better so I'm going to sit on this setup for a little while and see how it continues to develop. It's funny I never heard of this node /coax issue with the denefrips until now, and I did a lot of research...

Is the "best SQ setting" on Tidal Hi-rez? I was using a high grade glass optical but switched to coax because to my ears sounded better.

Alvin said "it may not" be compatible. So can it work for some, but not others?

Yep that was my experience with the Node as well as I mentioned. Coax is the limiting factor. The performance improves by another step once you get a better streamer. 

@jjss49 DUDE. You nailed it! I switched out the coax for a crappy USB cable  I had laying around, from the node straight to the dac and BOOM...deeper soundstage, more defined,  more balanced chill sound...whoa. 

Remember I said I was switching back and forth from my analog rig to the new dac, and my analog sounded a lot sweeter. Wasn't even close. Now it's close! Song for my father by Horace silver sounded way better on vinyl before, now it's pretty darn close. What the hell! Still have to play around with the optical....

Let it burn in for 200 hours then decide.  I’ve noticed big changes at 100 hours and incremental improvements after that up to 200 hours.  Give it a chance.  Ignore those who say there is no break-in time on electronics.

For hi-res, Node2i and Pontus Coax may not be compatible due to lower output VPP on the Node2i Coax output.

 

At hi-res, the data rate is much faster, hence, the signal may not be able to decode by the Pontus DAC. Would you please try the OPT connection instead?.

 

Many thanks.

Yours sincerely,

Alvin Chee

VINSHINE AUDIO PTE. LTD. (SINGAPORE)

I'm using a older BS Node2 connected to a fully broken in Pontus ll with coax and I'm getting outstanding results. While I haven't tried different streamers, the SQ with coax is still very good. I have a decent turntable setup and while it sounds a bit better than the streamer/dac combination, it doesn't embarrass them either.

@jjss49 wow! So I guess I should try out the other outputs on the node! Was this confirmed for the latest node?

Alvin actually stated it was the Aries II that has a compatibility issue with the Node coax input.

this is the case with all denafrips dacs and ddc's... the node coax digital output voltage is lower than most other streamers and the denafrips units have trouble receiving - i personally confirmed this with alvin - he actually told me to use optical instead ... 👎

dena gear was the only gear that i ever had this problem with using the node as streaming source... and since 2020 i must have been through 50 dacs, no exaggeration...

I think a lot depends on the DAC's USB implementation. Maybe I'm in the minority but I've always preferred USB over spdif and definitely over toslink. But then again it could be because the DACs I've owned are better with USB, who knows. Anyways, it's worth trying ... you might still prefer coax.

@arafiq currently feeding the Pontus with a coax cable from blue jean cables. Haven't tried USB,  My limited research seems to suggest that most people prefer coax to USB. Could be wrong, willing to try something different

@jin78 Sorry if you already mentioned it before, but how are you connecting the node to the pontus? If you haven't tried it already, can you try the usb out? I think the latest Node models now support usb out.

Almost every DAC I have tried thus far was a step up from the one in the Node (although, they might have improved in the latest generation). I'm wondering what else might be going on in your audio chain. Either way, I would give it at least another 100 hours before making a decision.

@jin78 It is well documented herein that the difference in the sound of external DACs, especially over the built in Node DAC, are easily distinguishable and normally an easy improvement.

@chorus Now when orders back up could the 100 hours turn out to be 5 hours?

You may be on to something there.... I did think about that at one point which is why I'm going to give it some more time​​​​​​

The Node, while a good bargain for what it is, can certainly be bettered as a streamer. There's no doubt in my mind that the Pontus II is better than the internal DAC in the Node, but moving up the chain with a better streamer would get you better results with the Pontus. I say let it keep breaking in and see what you think. You can certainly get every penny you paid back when you sell it.

@chayro  "a more realistic presentation of acoustic instruments and a better sense of space. Just sounds more "real". "

EXACTLY what In want! Also my system tends to be on the bright side of the spectrum, would like to get my digital to sound a little more sweet like my analog.

@jetter FYI running Canare 4S11 speaker cables. I ordered power cord from Signal for the dac but the connector didn't have the tightest fit, so ordered another video reference PC with tighter connector, awaiting arrival. I'm thinking it may be too early to call it not functioning properly, going to give it another week or so and see what happens.

@arafiq I have the latest node. In my head I'm thinking the node may not be the best streamer out there but it should do a decent enough job to where I should tell a difference between a budget dac and a higher end dac? I guess we shall see!

After 2 months with Pontus II I sold it 

never sound better than my Cambridge Azur 851N or Cocktail Audio x45 

I don't know which Bluesound Node 2 generation the OP has, but I can tell you the coax or toslink connections on the previous gen are a limiting factor. When I was using BS with various DACs, I was having a hard time discerning differences between a few DACs I tried. It was only after I moved to a better streamer supporting USB out that I was able to extract more out of my DACs. 

I have a Terminator II in my main system and recently bought an Ares II for the home office system. Both took over 100 hours to sound good. When I first got the Ares II, I wasn't sure what the fuss was about. It sounded pretty ordinary. But after two weeks, it came alive. I'm still shocked how well a DAC costing roughly $800 USD can perform. It is certainly better than my Audio Mirror Tubadour III (non-SE version) for sure. 

 it is also known that the pontus does not play particularly well with b-s node digital output

Alvin actually stated it was the Aries II that has a compatibility issue 

with the Node coax input.

 Owning a R2R DAC my beliefs are they are more subject to temp stability

and burn in than traditional chip DAC's. My burn in was 4 weeks cycling between

full on and standby never completely off. I usually since the room is coolish power up fully at least an hour or so prior to critical listening.

@jin78 

Hi jin, I also have a Bluesound Node and you should be hearing a substantial improvement over its internal DAC.

I am using the very affordable Signal Cable digital coax between the BS node and my DAC and it made a nice difference.

Also, I have used both the Blue Jean Canare and Belden speaker cables.  In my system, the Belden speaker cables sounded like the proverbial wet blanket was over my system, compared to the Canare cable.  Just my 2 cents.

Besides this, it is sounding like you may have a unit that is not functioning correctly.

the pontus also has various settings... should use os without filtering for clearest most balanced sound... pontus gets murkier in nos mode

typed that one a little too fast...

what i meant was to use the ’least’ filtering while in oversampling... what they call ’slow’ os filtering -- op, see link for details...

https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/2020/03/12/pontusvenus-dac-configuration

@jasonbourne52 has spoken. / thread....

Does the OP "burn-in" a new laptop computer? A DAC is the same! If it doesn't work 100% from turn-on return it! Stop falling for this burn-in crap!

@jjss49 : all DACs need filters to eliminate our-of-band high frequency garbage. These are call aliasing filters and suppress frequencies above 22khz. No music there! What you said was wrong: "... without filtering for clearest most balanced sound". Otherwise high frequency junk gets dumped into the audible band without filters!