DENAFRIPS DAC ---- Owner Impressions, Feedback, General Discussion, Questions and more....

I spent about three hours of listening to my own music last night and had no dropouts.  This was playing from a USB drive I have inserted in the Node 2 running thru the Termy.  Most likely the issue is with Tidal itself as @jaytor suggested.  If I find any other issues I'll report back but I think I'm all good for now.  Thanks @david_ten for your suggestions.  I will try the FW upgrade once I get my laptop up.  

Good Sunday & Happy Easter! 

The frequent dropouts are likely network related. There are possibilities of deficient internet speed, high traffics volume, streaming services etc. 

A good way to verify this is like what others suggested, try to play local music content, or use a known good source like CDT to cross check. This helps to isolate and pinpoint the issue. 

Stay safe and healthy!

Alvin
www.vinshineaudio.com 

Alvin is well aware that there are issues with connections to Tidal and Quboz via the Blusound Node 2i. I bought a Pontus dac with the new DSP board from Alvin and Vinshine Audio in October 2019 and have been messaging him monthly about firmware updates that he's promised from Denafrips. Sorry to air my dirty laundry.

From the beginning I was getting constant skipping and dropouts via a SPDIF cable between the dac and Node. Quoting a message from Alvin in November 2019:

"The issue of skip in split second was due to fifo buffer clock sync with source's clock mismatch by split second, hence the dac skip.This doesnt happen to all source, some sources clock has larger different with denafrips dac, so it will skip when the time sync is out.
I am pushing a firmware fix to address this​"​

​Alvin seems to be like a great guy to deal with but saying its a network issue seems disingenuous. I use a direct ethernet cable connection to the Node and have 200mb/s download speed. It's not Alvin's fault, but him being Denafrips only dealer, there should be a firmware update after 6+ months. I wonder what my system could sound like without all the skipping and dropouts. Skipping happens with every listening session and dropouts have to be resolved by turning the dac off then back on. 

What helped with the skipping and dropouts was me going out the first week and getting an iFi SPDIF iPurifier reclocker. I shouldn't have needed to do that. But the issue still persist on a smaller scale and we still need a firmware update as promised. Hopefully others with the same issue can voice it here.

The following explanation is based on my understanding of how the Denafrips DACs work from reading their documentation and other postings. I could be wrong in my understanding of the issue.

The Denafrips DACs use an internal reclocker when the DAC is connected using SPDIF or AES, which uses a small FIFO to buffer the PCM samples before they are clocked out using the internal clock to the R2R DAC. 

SPDIF (and AES/EBU) assume that the source controls the clock, but as we all know this can introduce jitter resulting in poor performance. By buffering the data and reclocking it, the DAC can all but eliminate the issues with jitter, but this only works well if the source clock is close enough in frequency to the DACs reference clock such that the FIFO can handle the timing differences for the duration of the stream.

If the source clock is operating at a significantly different frequency from DAC clock, or the time between resetting the buffer is too long, the FIFO will either overflow or run out of samples and you'll get a drop out or stutter. 

The iPurifier is doing essentially the same thing, but it probably has a deeper buffer than the Denafrips DAC, and/or is smarter about how it uses its buffer. It also likely has a better clock than the Node 2i (or at least is matched better to the DACs internal clock) so the DAC is not having the same issue buffering the data in its internal reclocker.

There may be ways to improve the problem in the DAC's firmware by being smarter about how the FIFO is used (starting the reclocking sooner or later depending on whether the source clock is faster or slower than the DACs reference clock), or perhaps there is a way to increase the FIFO size (if it's implemented in RAM) if the clocks are significantly off. 

Assuming this is the issue, this problem will not occur when connecting the DAC over USB since the DAC is in control of the timing in this case instead of the source. 

But I also think in @snafujg's case, it's more likely an internet/Tidal issue since he didn't have problems streaming local content and the internet has seen significantly increased streaming demand over the past several weeks due to so many people sheltering at home. 

I just received my Ares II yesterday and although it sounds great, there is an issue playing MQA content from Tidal. This was not an issue with my previous dac (Simaudio Moon 100D).CD quality from Tidal plays just fine, but when an MQA quality track plays all I get is a few random clicks and pops, but no music. Kind of like listening to Yoko Ono. I am curious if anyone else has had similar issues. I am running the digital output from a Bluesound Node 2 via coaxial cable to the Ares II.

@jerseytrain, my apologies for the delay. It has been a challenging time, unprecedented. As soon as i have an update from DENAFRIPS.

@jaytor , spot on! You explained it much better than i do. Much appreciated!

@tony1954, DENAFRIPS DAC doesn't support MQA. Can you disable this in the Bluesound?

Stay safe,
Alvin

Last week, I decided to take the plunge and order a Terminator to replace my Yggdrasil (A2 Gen5 USB) that I've had in my system for a little over two years. I've had a chance to compare the Yggy with a few other DACs (similar and lower priced than the Yggy) and to my ears and in my system, the Yggy always came out the clear winner.

I've been listening to my system a LOT more in the past several weeks since I've got my home office set up in the same room as my 2-channel system. I've really been enjoying what it can do, but like most audiophiles, I'm always looking for ways to improve it. 

There wasn't anything in particular that I felt was missing with the Yggy. On good recordings, it sounds spectacular. Perhaps the only thing that bugged me was that lower quality recordings were considerably less enjoyable, and there is a lot of classic rock that just doesn't sound that great. I'm not sure if the Terminator is going to help, but we shall see. 

The Terminator arrived yesterday afternoon, so I don't have many hours on it yet. I'm hesitant to give any impressions at this point since it is barely warmed up, let along broken in. But right out of the box, I noticed more solidity and impact in the bass, even from my office chair listening position. I have not done any critical listening yet. 

I'm hoping to get some feedback from current or previous owners. I currently have my DAC connected to my Bryston BDP-2 over AES/EBU. I have a NUC8i7 running Roon ROCK in another room. I'm considering putting the NUC in an Akasa fanless case with a good linear PS and connecting it via USB to the DAC. This would require investment in a good PS (which I will probably do anyway) and a good USB cable. 

Has anyone tried both AES (or SPDIF) and USB and found USB to be better with the Terminator (or other Denafrips DACs)?

I have tried the USB connected directly to a fanless low powered endpoint and the results on the USB are outstanding, note internally the DAC will buffer and reclock the signal, that added to the excellent built in power supply of this DAC makes the system "less dependant" on external factors like USB quality, Linear Power supplies for the equipment etc.
That said using good USB cables, LPS powered NUCs (I have a Nuc like yours with a JS2) etc. will improve thngs

Alvin,
Thanks for the response. Bluesound does not have that option, but Tidal does. Let me explore a bit and see what I can do. Regardless, I can use the MQA output from the Node 2 for my headphones and the Ares for CD quality and as a replacement for the dac in my Oppo.

For you denafrips owners, what other dacs did you find the denafrips performed better than? Either at a similar level or more pricey?

did not listen to all dacs, but did compare to scarlatti which was better, but also a lot more cash.

even at 2x-3x  the price  point for each of the respective denafrips dacs, you are not going to beat them.

Is there a US repair center for warranty and non warranty repairs?  or are all repairs done at Vinshine Audio?

Thanks

Hello @jb45 ,

There is no US service center at the moment. DENAFRIPS products are modular design. Repairs involve boards swapping, with minimum soldering required. We don't recommend complex components-level repair. Board swapping is straight forward, it can be done fairly easily. 

There are few options to get the DENAFRIPS products serviced:

1. We will work with you to identify the problem. For example, Terminator DAC comprises of 

- Front control board
- DSP board
- Main DAC board
- PSU
- Transformers

Once we identified the fault, say for example, the likelihood is the DSP board acting up, we will ship the DSP board to you to replace. Guide to replace will be provided, similar to this: 

https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/2019/06/18/How-To-Upgrade-DSP-Board

Or, alternatively, you may

2. Ship the product back to us, we will fix it and return it to you. Our warranty policy: https://www.vinshineaudio.com/warranty

Hope this helps!

Stay safe,
Alvin Chee
www.vinshineaudio.com

Hello Alvin
That does help and is reassurring.
Thanks for the prompt reply.

I've now had my Terminator for about two weeks and it's been playing more-or-less constantly since then (about 300 hours). Based on what I've read, I still have a ways to go before it reaches peak performance. 

At this point, it is sounding very good. Compared to my Yggdrasil A2, it is comparable or slightly better in every regard. On excellent recordings, it sounds fantastic. On lesser recordings, I still notice a little congestion and slight harshness. The biggest improvements are more energy in the lower frequencies, and more 3-dimensionality (is that a word?) to the sound stage. The presentation is very similar to the Yggdrasil, so I think if you like the Yggdrasil, you'll probably be quite happy with the Terminator. 

I do have one issue though. Connected over AES/EBU, I am noticing an occasional hiccup (skip) in the music. I am pretty sure that this is because the Denafrips DACs buffer the digital data in a FIFO and reclock it using an internal clock. This helps to reduce jitter, but if the source clock and internal clock aren't perfectly matched, eventually the FIFO will overflow or run out of data. I am using a Bryston BDP-2 streamer with the upgraded audio board, so I think this is a fairly decent streamer. 

This issue has occurred when playing local files as well as Tidal streaming, so I don't think it's a Tidal issue. I'm using a NUC running Roon ROCK as my server, with a wired ethernet connections throughout.

This isn't a huge problem, in that I've only noticed this skip maybe a half dozen times since I've had the DAC and I've been listening 7-8 hours a day since I'm working from home.

As I'm typing this, I remembered that I adjusted the settings in Roon to do sample rate up-sampling (which does slightly improve the sound) about a week ago. I don't remember hearing the skips before then. This would, of course, put more stress on the FIFO buffers inside the DAC since there are a lot more samples to deal with. 
 
Certainly one solution to this is to switch to USB input, but my Bryston doesn't have USB output, so I'll have to decide how to proceed. 

https://www.vinshineaudio.com/so/e9N7BSE7M/c?w=FfeOssCZoSKx5giYwC9HxHGuACK4dO9nkFySphccRV8.eyJ1Ijoia...

New Upgrade boards for Denefrips dac's

Alvin told me that DACs shipped since Nov 2019 already have this new board. This upgrade applies to DACs purchased before Nov 2019. 

Over the last couple days, my Terminator seems to have jumped in sound quality. Maybe it's just the music I've been playing, but it is really sounding nice.

And I haven't noticed any hiccups in the past couple of days (listening all day while I work from home). Perhaps it was only specific recordings which were causing the problem, but I think I'm going to stick with my Bryston streamer for the time being. 

My FAQ response:

Good to hear from you. Hope all is well with you.

Lets call this latest DSP as BGA-DSP. It has various improvements over the previous one offered before Nov 2019:

- Intel Altera Cyclone IV FPGA with more IOs

- Improved PCB layout

- Improved components, i.e. ERO caps from Germany

Here's my take:

1. If you own and are happy with the current DSP board now, you do not need to upgrade. The high res support (PCM1536/DSD1024) and functions are exactly the same compared to the BGA-DSP.

2. But as all audiophiles, we are OCD, we are perfectionists, we like to try new things. That's the fun part of our hobby. The BGA-DSP is inexpensive (we subsidised heavily on the DSP board offer), it could be fun to play with it. We certainly need more toys at this strange time since we have unusually more time at home :)

Please stay safe, take care!

Many thanks.

Regards,

Alvin Chee

www.vinshineaudio.com

BGA-DSP Board Install Guide:

https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/2020/05/06/Guide-BGA-DSP-Upgrade?utm_campaign=9b01618a-f87c-41ab-98ad-b179a5f16465&utm_source=so&utm_medium=mail&cid=6a6bbfad-aefa-4c9d-9edc-f0321a709747

I see the new Denafrips digital-to-digital products accept clock inputs around 45mhz. Any idea why they chose these rates? The most commonly used rate in audio studio master clocks is 10mhz, as well as multiples of 44.1 to 192khz. Also, can the multiple outputs on these products be used simultaneously? In my system it would be useful to operate USB and AES/EBU outputs simultaneously-- one to a DAC and the other to a digital recorder.

Hi, I'm interested to buy a Terminator. Is there anyone.in the UK who has bought one from Singapore and imported it into the UK?
If so, may I ask how much Import Fees and Customs rates were paid? Obviously I know.The VAT fee but would like to gain solid info for UK importation.
Many thanks.

Terminator update.

First, the not so good: In an earlier post I stated I had sent the unit back for transformer hum. I’ve seen at least one other posting regarding the same. There was still a very slight hum when returned to me. I agree with the prior poster that this really is not acceptable for a flagship product. However, I bought an Emotiva CMX2 DC offset blocker which cured the hum. (There are few, even very expensive, power conditioners designed to eliminate DC offset). Apparently there is some degree of DC offset on my power lines, but the Denafrips was the only component not able to cope with it as nothing else in my system has any transformer hum. One more box to contend with in my system, fortunately I have room to hide it. Something to think about.

As for the sound, for the most part it is amazing! With PCM it’s detailed yet warm with stunning holographic imaging. But...On occasion there is static and a hissing sound similar to what you might experience with extreme clocking/jitter issue. Restarting play usually cures it. I am not sure if this is an issue with the Denafrips or Roon software or my nucleus+. Not quite sure how to trouble shoot that one. Any suggestions are welcome. The fact that it happens, even occasionally, haunts me... “is it happening now at a less audible level? Is the sound right? Could it be better? Is the DAC broken?“ Sometimes the music seems better than others even when I don’t hear the hiss. Just in my head???

As for DSD vs PCM. It’s hard to A/B it by upsampling. When I upsample PCM to DSD the level drops considerably which has a dramatic affect on perceived sound quality. (The opposite happens if I downsample a DSD file to PCM—the level increases) Again, I am not sure if this is a function of the DAC or the Roon software. I have tried to correct for this by adjusting the volume, but don’t seem to be able to get it just right. My very rough impression is the DSD soundstage seems ever so slightly more compressed with less detail. In fact, I have taken to down sampling some DSD material to PCM. On the surface this makes sense, as the magic in the DAC is the R2R where PCM shines.

@73max   Which board are you using in the Terminator (there are three versions now)?

Can you test via another digital cable feed?

Can you test with another server/streamer (other than your Nucleus+) feeding the Terminator?

Have you and Alvin troubleshooted the static/hiss issue?  

I had a 'similar' (intermittent) static/hiss issue which was resolved fully.

Thanks David. I haven’t addressed the hiss issue with Alvin yet. It is intermittent, but usually happens at least once a listening session and resets easily. At first I was just thinking this is part of digital audio, but lately I’m starting to think otherwise. Maybe I will contact him.

It typically happens when switching to a new album at a different sample rate. Not 100% sure that it hasn’t happened at other times, I need to evaluate this more closely.


The only digital source I have is my nucleus+ and no other way to feed it besides USB.
As for the board, it had the latest version when I purchased it last November. I don’t think there has been an update since then, has there? Is there a post that shows what the newest board looks like so I can take a look inside?

@73max  Definitely connect with Alvin. 

If you purchased in November (and it was a pre Nov. unit), there is a newer board available. Check a few posts up. Post by Alvin on 5/2. He should be able to let you know if you have the latest one or not.

You can also look at the board pics on the Denafrips site to determine for yourself. It's a simple removal of the top plate...two screws have to be removed...directions are on the site.

Also, try switching to another USB cable, as a simple test to eliminate the cable as being the issue (though it's unlikely to be, in my opinion). 

Thanks again David. Of course, it has to be an intermittent problem. The most difficult to resolve. Might not happen again for another week, might happen twice tonight. Very difficult to troubleshoot unless you can monitor 24 seven for days if not weeks.

When I bought it, the new board had just gone up for sale, I asked Alvin about it prior to purchase and he said mine would ship with the latest. I was not aware that there were three boards as you said. Any approximate timeline on when the second came out?

Going off memory here, so I'm not a hundred percent certain....

The original (first board) when the Terminator was initially released.

The second board approximately one year (~ a year +) ago.

Latest board was released about 1 month ago? or so .... it is pretty much the same in terms of upsampling.
the "artifacts" you are experiencing, are you by any chance using HQPlayer or the upsampling capabilities within Roon?

New D/D converters. 
I am toying with the idea of purchasing a GAIA to pair with my Terminator. (Have some other issues to resolve with the Terminator  first, see above posts).


Looking at the Terminator’s block diagram it appears the signal from I2S inputs (coming from the GAIA) is buffered and reclocked again by the Terminators FIFO. Is this correct? Am I reading the diagram correctly?

If so, it seems that most, if not all, the magic of the $2000-ish GAIA’s OCXO clock is for naught if the DAC is basically going to buffer the “perfectly” timed  bits then assign its own timing through a “lesser clock” before sending them on their way.

I’ve seen some anecdotal proclamations that it sounds wonderful. Doesn’t seem to jive with the science. I’m fairly new to all this so please educate me. With the science part preferably. Opinions and individual experiences are valuable, but not what I’m after here.

are you by any chance using HQPlayer or the upsampling

capabilities within Roon?

I am streaming mostly through Qubus and Tidal. A few downloads also.  I’ve been experimenting a lot with up sampling through Roon, sometimes I use it and sometimes I don’t. I have not been paying enough attention to make the connection between upsampling and the hiss. It is so random and intermittent that it will take me a while to check these things.

IME when I was using upsampling, the Terminator board when changing upsampling content / parameters sometimes (and this was very very sporadic) with the latest firmware was playing with a background "ringing" noise, stopping and starting with different source content or powering cycle fixed it. Mainly with PCM which is what I was sending to the board. I expect the next firmware release to fix this.

Thanks Luis. Not sure I would describe the effect the same but possibly the same parameters. A very distinct and loud distortion and hiss. Definitely goes away if I change content or restart the play. I actually was not aware of the firmware updates. I’m guessing it’s going to have to be done with a Windows computer which I don’t have. All Mac and Apple here.  Will look into it. Thanks

Well the only time I experienced a loud distortion and hiss was with the 1st Amanero board, possibly with the end of 2018 firmware for the new board (1st iteration) which was very stable with the update from Nov 2019, that update was revealing. MCU and FPGA update. If your DAC is from Nov 2019 or newer it should have such firmware. Which by the way brings the SQ to an entire new level.

FWIW and IMO using Roon by itself I prefer the Terminator with PCM max native rate and not upsampling in Roon. Terminator in OS mode (not NOS)
If you use HQPe (which I prefer to Roon alone) then PCM max upsampling 1536 with 19 bits and Termy in NOS mode.
Again this is just my preferenceThis is a wonderful DAC, I would love to hear comments for the DAC and the DDC as well

Another member on AS provided these Roon settings and I gotta say, I'm really liking them on my Terminator (my ultraRendu is set to native DSD), I am streaming Tidal and local files:

Roon Instructions:

 

In Roon, tap the speaker icon in the bottom right corner, tap "DSP".  tap "Headroom Management", and set the value to -5 dB, this lowers the level before oversampling to avoid clipping during the oversampling process.  In the same field, set "Show Clipping Indicator" to "on".  This will tell you if you have an clipping during playback (if you do, you can lower the headroom management a couple more dB, but usually -5 dB is enough).  Tap, "Sample Rate Conversion", and set sample rate conversion to "DSD".  Set "DSD Sample Rate" to 256,  Set "Sample Rate Conversion Filter" to "Precise, Linear Phase" (I prefer this setting, but you can try others of course).  Set "Sigma Delta Modulator" to "7th order CLANS", leave "SDM Gain Adjustment" at "0", set "Parallelize Sigma-Delta Modulator" to "Yes", set "Enable Native DSD Processing" to "Yes".  The DSD to PCM settings are irrelevant.

Before you exit, double check on the left that "Headroom Management", and "Sample Rate Conversion" are enabled.

Just thought I would share with this group.

P.S.  Looking forward to my Gaia- should ship within the next week or two!

I'm approaching 1000 hours on my Terminator and it's really sounding great. I'm using Roon ROCK on a fanless NUC through an EtherRegen to a Bryston BDP-2 (upgraded audio card) connected to the Terminator through AES3. 

I've found using Roon sample rate conversion to Max PCM Rate (power of 2) with the Precise, Minimum Phase filter, and the Termy set to OS (NOS off) gives me the best sound. 

I haven't experienced any hissing or ringing, but did have an occasional skip or hiccup (maybe once or twice a day). This was after I modified my NUC to use an internal SSD drive instead of a USB drive, but before I added the EtherRegen. I haven't noticed any hiccups on the past few weeks, so I'm not sure if it was related to the changes I made, or just a coincidence.

I'm intrigued by the Gaia, but would probably only consider this if I could replace my Bryston and switch to using USB from the NUC to the Gaia and then I2S to the DAC. I'm be interested to hear how this works for people. 

So I'm a Roon user, and while I get the headroom settings, why on earth would you buy an expensive R2R dac if you are going to feed it DSD??

That makes no sense to me.

+1 @erik_squires . I was thinking the same thing. But it's his ears and his money. If he likes the sound better that way, that's his choice. 

That makes no sense to me.

That is a good (although very direct and raw) remark. I totally agree but you could have added @erik_squires "even more if the source content is native PCM"

This is the way I understand it. Big part of the cost of the Terminator is the good quality and numerous resistors it uses. When you send content to the DAC it will do a lot of things, depending on the input used, buffering and reclocking etc, based on the source content will start the upsampling and digital to analog conversion on one of these two paths, if the content is PCM will be processed over the ladder of resistors and if it is DSD will be processed over the Sigma Delta stage with custom programmed FPGA.

IMO if you have native source content on DSD format well sending direct DSD bypassing the resistor ladder would be possibly advisable. On the other hand if you have PCM (from Tidal, Qobuz) then you could be better off sending PCM to it.

Erik's point I think is you could get a cheaper DS DAC if you prefer DSD (for some reason) and forget about the ladder part.

As said above My preference with the DAC would be sending "converted" (I don't like the term upsampled as I feel it is grammatically incorrect) PCM to max resolution with NOS, but (again) I for some time used a different player (not Roon) sending native Tidal with no conversion and the OS feature engaged and it sounded wonderful, could say different but comparable. After playing much with computers, software and suffering the effects of EMI/RFI I came to realize that if you don't have the time to tweak or if you just want to enjoy digital content with a simplier yet refined digital chain that's where you would be using the Terminator at its best

Please note just like I have my own preferences everyone else in this forum have their own, and I respect that, it is your ears, your perception and your money.

If I am making a false claim above by all means chime in and correct me

+1 @erik_squires . I was thinking the same thing. But it’s his ears and his money. If he likes the sound better that way, that’s his choice.

You nailed it @jaytor, in three lines what I used more than 30, 👍

If I may add, I said above big part of the cost were the resistors but I could add the final analog conversion electrical stage it is excellent as well as the digital filters used in the conversion. This is a very complete product which you would get not only for the R2R section, that's what I'm trying to say.

Erik's point I think is you could get a cheaper DS DAC if you prefer DSD (for some reason) and forget about the ladder part.

Kind of. As I understand it, the whole raison de'etre of the DENAFRIPS line of DACs is the discrete R2R ladder, no? Conversely, the whole point of DSD is to simplify the reconstruction circuit to a switch and capacitor with an output filter.

Also, yes, I've heard Roon's DSD upsampling, and at least on my system it sounds brighter and harder, not better while soaking up CPU time on the server.

But it's his ears and his money. If he likes the sound better that way, that's his choice.

@jaytor No doubt, I'm just confused here, it's like buying a fancy French chef's knife to chop wood.

This is a very complete product which you would get not only for the R2R section, that's what I'm trying to say.

Huh.  If they say that the DSD conversion sounds better, it certainly invites me to price shop for a DAC that spent the same amount in the DSD output but not the PCM.

Buy what you will, but if you are going to run them this way, make sure you compare this way as well.

Best,

E

Huh. If they say that the DSD conversion sounds better, it certainly invites me to price shop for a DAC that spent the same amount in the DSD output but not the PCM.

Hi Erik:
We are saying kind of the same thing.
You will buy the terminator for the PCM stage no doubt about it, that is " the whole raison de’etre " as you put it.

My own opinion for other factors.
If you also have DSD recordings the DSD stage is very good as well and you don’t have to go from DSD to PCM, how good is this DSD vs PCM stage is a matter of preference, I don’t use it and I have said elsewhere in these forums that PCM sounds better than DSD and got controversial. Honestly I don’t take sides, so I told them do whatever rocks your boat.

When I was referring Erik that you (I should have said "could" not "would") get not only for the R2R (English is not my native language) I meant because other parameters (not specifically the DSD section)

Using silly bulk numbers reasons to get the Terminator

1. Resistor ladder for PCM conversion - 60%
2. Power supply quality, shielding and design and placement of components - 20% (Other DAC’s you usually have to power these with LPS’s and such to get very good benefits meaning extra cost $600 - $2000 for a good LPS, the built in PS on the Terminator is very good, you don’t need to spend extra on power supplies)
3.  Filters used - 10%. These are very good, with native PCM redbook content the OS feature plays wonderful, the filters are the hand of the designer and have their own magic, I experimented this specifically with Euphony Stylus Player.
4. DSD conversion - 10%.The SDM conversion is very good (specially with the good power supply embedded in the hardware), if you have native recordings again you don’t need to go through the PCM conversion, or DoP etc. just direct DSD, up to 1024 which is nice although not very usable for limitations on content and conversion software.
   

I understand for you topic 1. the PCM conversion will weight possibly 100% or 90% making the decision, I am just trying to see it in more "general" / "big picture" terms.If you want a good SDM DAC go for an RME ADI, will cost half the price (without an LPS) but it won’t offer many of the "special" features the Termy does.
And besides let’s be realistic, how many here are using Tidal / Qobuz PCM streaming vs Native DSD users? i would say 95%?
Yeah exactly your point (and mine) Erik ...

@david_ten and @alvin1118

David and Alvin, I did not mean to derail this thread onto a separate PCM / DSD / other DACs discussion, just stating my opinion.

@luisma31 - yes, I agree that having a good DSD section along with the excellent R2R PCM functionality makes the Terminator an excellent "complete" solution no matter your content type.

While I have very little DSD content in my own collection so I haven't done a lot (read none) of A/B testing of DSD content, it makes sense to me to keep PCM as PCM, and DSD as DSD, since this DAC does an excellent job with both. 

I did experiment with converting PCM to DSD just for grins (and since this seems to be a big part of PS Audio's approach), but I preferred the results sticking with PCM. The DAC does a very good job with standard Redbook material (with no alteration before the DAC), but I slightly prefer the sound using Roon to do power-of-2 upsampling. 

@jaytor yes sir I agree

@luisma31  Good discussion. My position (coming from a guy who only used the Terminator 'native' / NOS PCM) is that having options is better than not having them AND that this hobby is 'the better for it' when  we get to explore and choose what works best for us.

In that spirit, I look forward to @73max 's findings and his ultimate preferences.