DAC shopping - Trying to sift through the Hype. Can I trust the reviews these days ??

Also debating a new dac currently using a Ares II considering the Pontus 15. Little confused over if it be the right choice. My preamp amd tube amp are both Singled ended. Would the Pontus be a good choice in this setup?

The terminator plus 12th sounded very good to us also. We also clocked it with the Hermes DDC.  The biggest negative for us was the fact that DSD files were a lot quieter than PCM material. It could also be a little Sterile sounding at times.  We feel It is still one of the best sounding DAC's.

Update on the Terminator 15th. Now after 500 hours on this thing it just keeps getting better, must be all those resisters, caps etc burning in. It has opened up a great deal, I can just listen to this DAC for hours on end easily. All solid state system too. I have about 200 hours to go before it is fully cooked. I am so happy with it.

@bunkertoy DSD is a clear improvement with the proper DAC. We have over 800 iso files so it’s a must in our setup.

@invalid Yes. It took us almost 2 years to prefect our DAC.

During the ride we and other audiophiles compared it to many high end DAC’s and even a duplicate of ours in order to make it even better. We purchased and sold many DAC’s in the process. Started with the Denifrips Pontus (sold), Terminator Plus 12th (sold) and many others. Just finished with the dCS Bartok Apex ring DAC (sold).

@jk_richards so the dac you sell upgrades for beat out the dac you compared it to, imagine that.

@jk_richards I don't bother with DSD. Strictly Hi-res PCM here.Don't think my ears would be able to tell the difference.

Cheers

If you are still considering Holo Cyan 2, wait for this systerhood product:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkp1R_Lb4lY&t=409s

and his upcoming comparison against Harmony and LTA Aero...

@bunkertoy 

Does it accept and play .iso DSD files?

@jk_richards I'm pretty happy with my Squeeze LMS. LMS is a total open source. It also plays very well with my Antipodes Streamer.

Have you tried Jriver Media player/server?

HQPlayer is good however it will not accept iso's.

Jriver has a great interface and a DLNA server so you can use mconnect to stream Qobuz and other streaming services.  Also has an app for ios (Jremote).

We run ours on a micro HP computer to our Hermes DDC to several DACS so we can do instant A/B comparisons by selecting different DAC inputs on the preamp. 

There are soooo many DACs.  I’ve been using a Denafrips Pontus 2 for the past couple of years and just picked up a new Holo Audio Cyan 2 on the used market. I wanted a DAC that was R2R, had i2s input, and could take an upsampled DSD signal so I could play with HQPlayer. So far so good. It’s similar in character to the Pontus 2 but with more detail and better imaging. Not a huge upgrade but HQPlayer should take it to a higher level.  Good luck in your search.  

When we compared the Terminator Plus 12th to our Directstream Signature Series PLUS DAC it did quite well however no where as good sounding.  It had good detail however it did have some congestion and not as open and real sounding.  We even used it's clock out feeding the Hermes DDC however we feel it didn't really help or change the sound much.

I have the MSB Cascade .. I don't think there's any hype about it and it is fantastic but it does cost a lot of money though.

Exactly what I wanted to hear, I haven't personally heard the 12th Terminator or Venus.....Terminator and/or Terminator Plus will be on my short list when I upgrade

@vthokie83   Yes, the terminator 15th has 190 hours on it and it is fantastic compared to the Venus II. Like the reviews say -more of everything that is good. It is a fantastic DAC, it's smoother than the Venus, yet far more detailed. Timbre is so realistic, bass has much more texture and authority but not overwhelming. I have not heard any $20K DACs but this thing is special.

Fred

Any news on the Terminator yet, I'd love to hear your thoughts

I feel like you're trying to re-invent the wheel.  Your system should already be very revealing.  However, I still feel you should hook up a CD-Player behind your current DAC and see how the sound of a disc compares to the same musical material while streaming.

Lampizator doesn't show pictures of the inside of their equipment.   Are they trying to hide cheap parts or the secret sauce?

The hype is hard to keep up with, but there are many great DACs depending on what you want to spend (and what you want to hear.) First I wanted a Weis, then a T+A, but bought a LaIV Harmony which I love. I briefly had buyer’s remorse when I heard about Holo, but then decided I made the right choice with LAiV. Nagra & Lampizator are too much for me and I would spend the cash on improving others area of my system first. Those Watt Puppies are still just a pipe dream for me.

@kairosman I would love to try out a Lampizator DAC. I've heard great things.... I'll just have to wait for a used bargain. They rarely sell in Canada. I find many in the U.S don't like to ship to Canada for some reason.

I have had my first R2R dac (Laiv) for a number of months, and I am very pleased with its overall presentation, it's quite organic compared to a number of delta sigma dacs that I have owned. Of the chip dacs I would say the burr brown chip in DSD is close. I should add that the Laiv Harmony has performed without issue, although it's  early days so i withhold comment until I have owned it for a while. I think you have to listen to a new dac, after it has broken in,  like most new pieces of audio equipment for a period of time, "live with it", sort of to really give it a proper evaluation. I don't know how you get something new, listen to it for a week or 2, and make a decision. It takes me some time to properly evaluate a new piece, in my system, especially speakers and dacs.

OP, another option is to go ALL OUT and buy an end-game DAC, then upgrade slowly the rest of the chain over the next few years as your budget allows. My sources, ie my TT, CD transport and DAC, are where 50% of my system $ is allocated to. You may feel differently, most for example think it is the speakers that merit the biggest spend, to each his own obviously.

My current top DAC is the Lampizator Baltic 4, my end-game DAC is the Lampizator Poseidon - but it's $25K so I gotta be lucky with my crypto this year coming if I'm gonna be able to pull the trigger.

FYI Lampizator has a chip-based converter, tube rectification, and tubes in the output stage, so the house sound is a great blend of resolution, dynamics and soundstage grandeur.

But sadly the stuff ain't cheap 😕 

@bunkertoy 

Check this out -- Bricasti M3 in 9/10 cond. for $2500 :

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650163190-bricasti-m3/

This is a great deal!  

OP, the LTA Aero is out of your range but looks right up your alley. Mine is on order. 
 

I agree with you. There’s so much hype. So many reviews.  So many forum threads.  It gets confusing fast.  

I say get a used Chord TT2 DAC. Here’s one that I found on eBay. I’ve got one as the heart of my system and I absolutely love it. https://www.ebay.com/itm/356280491805?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=Z5tP63kISuO&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=Bul91bNkTOO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

@drmuso would LOVE to see the innards, do you ever pop the hood on your DACs?

I'm only interested in NOS (non-oversampling R2R) DACs these days. I have 4 of them: 2 are always in use and 2 are always stored at backups. The best of these are the Metrum Onyx & MHDT Labs Orchid.

Those 2 DACs handily illustrate a key point about NOS & R2R DACs: when you select this technology, you still face the intimidating choice of DACs that err on the side of "neutral" (ie, not warm, very resolving, big/detailed soundstage) or "colorful" (ie, maybe somewhat warm, spacious and resonant soundstage). The Onyx is the former and the Orchid is the latter. I like both sounds, depending on the downstream gear used.

+1 to the suggestion of using a DDC (digital to digital converter) with any DAC you end up with. I have two systems, and a Matrix X SPDIF 3 DDC is in each. I found years ago that I preferred digital coax to USB; since then I got several terrific coax cables and am very happy with that sound. I've also played around with AES/BSU cables and like that sound. None of my NOS DACs have I2S inputs, but when I get a DAC that does, the DDC allows its use.

@kairosman 

My Venus 15th is being shipped from Denafrips.  Will post after I've had time to burn it in and evaluate it.  Should be a terrific upgrade from my Ares II.

@kairosman That is why I shipped my Venus II out yesterday, to it's new owner the resale values are in the tank. I sold it for a great price.

There are some reviewers who compare multiple dacs against each other. 
 

the reality is all DACs sound different and there is good and bad in each of the technology approaches. Avoid reviewers that seem to think a particular approach is better than others. 
 

@fthompson251 lol if the Venus is even just a Terminator II the previous generation Venus and Terminator owners are gonna feel butt hurt. Not a good look for Denafrips long term IMO, now every prospective customer is looking at crappy resale value.

+1 @akg_ca 

You’ve sorted through two pages of posts that push to one core assessment of the “best” DAC ….. it depends entirely on your bespoke system .

So what makes a good DAC choice when you are assessing options blindly without personal auditions and just reading the confusing reviews….. or distilling down all these confusing and oft conflicting posts ?

Then think about the following DAC design and DAC build factors. .

Too many believe that the magic silver bullet to a good converter lies in just choosing a “high-end” flavor -of-the-month converter chip. Sure …. Top end chip is a first good step and many have it as their first marketing post, (with some competing OEM brand overlap / commonalities …) but it’s nowhere near the key core differentiation factors.

Rather, we know that the essence of the musicality also resides in the line signal processing stages, the power supplies (transformers, filtering, regulation, and preferably linear… ), the digital signal processing before conversion, the quality of the key components: clocks, transistors, capacitors, op amps, etc.

Build Quality matters and yes .,, it’s gonna intuitively cost ya more.Buying cheap here is a significant compromise.

PS.,,, Ensure you like the digital interface / app in a streamer section if it’s included in the DAC, Some of the OEM software choices are dodgy, and/or have crappy support , or worse. And some are truly excellent point and click delights.

I believe Antipodes claim they found the secret sauce to make USB work however their gear is for me not inexpensive.  I think USB was a safe bet to allow for DSD and it is cheap.  The crazy number and variety of USB “decanters are testament to its flaws.

i use the Ethernet output of my Statement convert it to fiber, send it thru a Sonore Signature Rendu SE and then send it to the Antipodes S20.  It’s so much more musical than direct USB from the Statement to Goldengate even though it has the new JL Audio USB input.

Buy a Topping D10s. It can intake USB and output Toslink or Coax. That way you can add a USB input to your Bel Canto for under $100. Problem solved. 

In a similar spot to you...wanting to make a significant jump.  Aqua and T+A are my current front runners.  I'll be curious to hear what you end up getting an how you end up liking it.

@sqitis Thanks for extensive description. I still think a separate streamer/Server is best for noise. I'm hoping to go up the food chain with Antipodes. Once again I really enjoy the Squeezelite eco-system. I'm currently searching out a Antipodes CX to be my server.

@rikkipuu On USB being noisey... I wonder then why all the high-end Streamers/Servers have only USB outputs. I've spoken to Antipodes and they indicate I will get better sound using the USB output or the Spdif output. I purchased a Bel Canto Ref Link to take the USB signal and convert it to Spdif. I like that it matches my current Bel Canto 3.7.

@tweak1 I agree about separate power supplies. my upgrade on my Bel Canto was a l linear Power supply.

Picking a new DAC will not be a spur of the moment decision. So many opinions & choices.

The more money I save, the better results I'll get from my DAC. DACs seem to take a jump moving into the strong brands, such as: T+A, Weiss, DCS, Lampizator etc...

can you trust the reviews?

sort of

From my experience the biggest difference that separates less expensive dacs and oreamps (<$2k) from more expensive dacs is the quality of the power supplies. A inexpensive way to hear that is to buy a VeraFi Audio Snubway and perhaps a Mainstream, and if you don’t have a quality power conditioner then get the Ace Power Package before agonizing over other dacs

HTH

@bunkertoy

I'm with some of the others on this topic. I've been down the "Dac of the month" club and have heard a lot of them in my setup. Depending on your system house sound you gotta match what is needed or not needed for that matter. I'll give my 3 opinions below of the different styles or flavors of Dac's I went through and then you can get an idea of what may work with your sound and what you are looking to-get out of it.

1. I'll start with R2R Dacs- I've tried many, from the Holo Spring 3 KTE, Terminator Plus, Aries II, Pontus etc etc - All sounded very similar and some slight differences as well, but you could tell they had the same signature to them. I found them all to be very organic, in depth, warmish sound or maybe just a tad rolled at the top or maybe they are slow at the top I would say. Now onto setup, first off, I have a huge room 36x18 and lots of warm feel with tube equipment with Andra II speakers & Nautilus 801. If you prefer and much warmer feel, smaller cozy venue and not the big grand concert hall with lots of air around the room then R2R is your thing. Now if your system is already big and bright with lots of echo and hard surfaces that needs a little taming, again R2R might be what you’re looking for.

2. This is the category that I tested the most, chip based dacs delta sigma mainly ESS Sabre but had a couple of others. These matter the most with implementation and the analog output section. These dacs all had a similar house sound as well but also with some small differences as well. The proper ESS Sabre dac with a proper analog section will absolutely blow your mind but not many manufactures get it right I feel like. I've heard a few choice higher end ESS dacs get it right for sure. When they don't get it right, it can run you out of the room with a headache for sure. Now, there are what we call bright, open, big sounding chips such as ESS Sabre, warm fuzzy cool to touch chips such as Wolfson, AKM, Burr Brown. I had best luck with ESS Sabre such as LKS-DA004/005, Gustard bits, T&A Dac 8 with T&A Dac 8 and D005 being the best in this range of delta sigma. A quick note about AKM chips, to my ears this chip sounds as if ESS and R2R dacs had a baby together and out came the AKM sound. Again, just what I heard in my setup/room/ears.

3. Now this is where I think the future is, Streaming Dacs. I know I'll probably get chastised for this one...LOL I feel like the best all-around sound that could be slightly tailboard was this category and the most flexible. Once I left the USB dac scene I never looked back. You can get a wonderful sounding streaming dac with a chip or FPGA and with software upgrades or firmware changes you can slightly change the sound and get some fun cool software to play with such as Lumin, Cary, Aurender or Roon etc. I would without a doubt tell you to start here and leave the USB behind or even i2S behind. You can get some badass Ethernet cables for wayyyy cheaper than USB/i2s stuff and yeah if your system is good enough you can hear difference in these cables as well, but that's another topic. I would suggest these dacs to try or add to your short list not in any order. You should consider these based on good sound, options, and build quality with support. Lumin, Cary DMS line, Aurender, PS Audio DS MK1. I feel that this is the future of Dacs and USB/i2s will get left behind for some of us but not all.

At your price range, do yourself a favor and consider a streaming dac, maybe the PS Audio DS MK1 with bridge II is the start since it has like 10-12 different firmware's and each sound is a little different. with lots of input options and can be modded a little bit. Maybe even a Lumin D2, D3, T2 all sound fantastic but limited inputs. I currently have the Cary DMS-600 which sounds like some of these others mentioned all had a baby together...LOL I do plan however to go back to a Lumin but that is only because of the synergy with my setup and what I prefer in sound to my ears. Sorry for the long-winded post but this is only my .2 cents.

YMWV

I have owned a Denifrips Terminator Plus 12th R2R DAC, a dCS Bartok Apex ring DAC and finally decided on the modified Directstream MK1 as it sounded the best to us. These were evaluated for almost a year in our system.

@kairosman  The New Venus 15th is a Terminator II it looks like to me. I just received a Terminator 15th yesterday which is really a Terminator + 12th + some FPGA adjustments. It's cooking in my system now, will listen in a few days.

OP, I'm in the same bit of quandary you are.  My SMSL SU-9n and Modi Multibit are the weak links in my two systems, but in the absence of something to compare with, they still sound great.  The two systems are either highly vintage tube ending in Altec 604 or hybrid tube/ss ending in Magnepans.  A friend with fine gear (Hegel 390 and Dynaudio speakers) just bought the Holo Cyan 2 and said it clearly bests the resident DAC in the Hegel, and he can compare live with a switch.  Other contenders in my list include Benchmark DAC3 and Chord Qutest.  Another friend went with the Denafrips Venus, and while I could hear improvement, the step change with his system wasn't enough to drop $3K+.  With the possibility of import tariffs looming in the near future, I'm feeling a bit more motivated.  If you're in the US, that may also be a factor for you.  Buying with a return option, even with a restock fee, is a bonus.  Good luck with your search!

I have the Weiss DAC204 as well, got it open box for $2700, very pure and expansive sound, works as a DDC as well.

Curious about the new Denafrips Venus 15th that seems like a rebadged Terminator 12th-1 for pre-order at $3700, anyone on this thread going for it?

I was very certain from reading and watching videos that I wanted an R2R DAC. I happened to pick up a Weiss DAC204 and it is truly excellent. I’m not using a linear power supply yet. Has a much more involving sound than my old Auralic Altair. I am more of a vinyl guy but wanted to get into DACs. This DAC has a very natural sound. My integrated (Sugden IA4) gets along with the Weiss perfectly. 

USB is noisy.  It’s not noise you hear thru your speakers at high volumes.  It’s background grunge that masks blackness as well as adding to the digital harshness and loss of PRaT.

My Innuos Statement and Lampizator GG3 both have USB and I have a FTA Sinope USB cable but I prefer the streamers Ethernet output and S/PDIF input on my DAC.  I don’t believe more modestly priced USB outputs or inputs will sound any better.

I have an Antipodes S20/S60 DDC, I bought them used and it is much better than the Denafrips Iris I had before.  I feel the DDC does a good job of cleaning up a lot of the noise USB adds.

Maybe starting 8yrs ago, there have been great sonic strides in digital DACs.  
 

Notable DACs:

• 2.3 Doge 7 MkII tube DAC              
• 2.6 Ferrum Wandla - HR competes w 10k DACs   +1.2 HYPSOS power supply 
• 2.7 LAiV Harmony DAC
• 3.0 Musician Aquarius - sounds like a $5k DAC
• 4.3 Denafrips Terminator  [BNC in,  XLR out](But USB in best per AudioBacon)                                                                                      
• 4.0 Linear Tube Audio Aero DAC
• 4.5 Wired4Sound DAC-2v2SE                    
• 5.0 Audio-GD R7HE MK2                              
• 5.6 Kitsune Hifi May-KTE.                           
• 6.6 Lampizator Baltic 4 (punches way above price point- beats KTE)
• 6.8 Bel Canto Ex1 DAC (Transparent)                    
• 7.1 T+A DAC200
• 7.3 Lampizator Golden Atlantic TRP,          
• 8.0 ACCUPHASE DP-570 CD/SACD PLAYER                                     
• 8.0 Legacy Wavelet II processor +$200 custom speaker 

Ferrum Wandla and Linear Tube Audio Aero DAC seems like sonic bargains at their price points.  The T+A DAC200 is also a solid Sonic choice.

But, if you want to swing for the Sonic fences, then maybe 11k MBL C41 Network Player (streamer+DAC) whose Sonic’s competes with top DACs.  TAS Exec Editor JV called it a “bargain” whose Sonic’s are somewhat comparable to the ~68k Kalista DreamPlay.  This review just came out in TAS Dec 2024 issue.  “superb near tape sound..”.  

In any serious comparison that rises above the noisiness of anecdotes filled with subjective claims about sound signatures, I highly recommend going to Audio Science Review and checking out the leader board. The upper quartile of DACs are sonically neutral and effectively indistinguishable from one another.

The various discussions there by seasoned engineers, DIY experimenters, and even leading audio equipment vendors (Dan Clark is discussing his new headphones right now!) are eye-opening regarding some of the topics that are quite jumbled/confused here on Audiogon, like I2S versus USB 3.0, the effectiveness of cables, oversampling, and so on.

Such a great resource for aspiring audio equipment fans and the cognoscenti alike!

Best of luck on your search!

Border Patrol. No hype, just great music.