Hey all wanted to provide an update!
I readjusted my speakers to be a bit farther from the wall, and toed them out a bit more. I think they were just angled in a bit too much. I also removed the foam plugs in the reflex ports on the back of the speakers that I forgot were in from when I moved back last year. Sound is pretty incredible as of now. I think the Yamaha is continuing to burn in, and sounding better and better.
I have change the networking in the room to eliminate as many wireless signals as possible. I have run a Cat7 cable from my router over to my system area, and have a switch and additional Cat7 cables running to the Node, my TV, my BlueRay/SACD Player and my AppleTV 4k. I’ve also manually turned off all of the WIFI cards in these devices. I’ve also began to use Qobuz, after reading many nasty things about MQA. Thank you all for pointing me in this direction. I have also gone through and cleaned up some of the interconnects in the system to bring them up to a better spec all around.
This has all made a difference to my ears. I probably changed too many things in too small of a window to try and isolate what has turned the corner in me being really happy all in all with the system.
Now onto the prospective new parts:
Went out and trialed a few subwoofers. Definitely believe that the SB-3000 is where I am leaning. It isn’t too big, I prefer the tightness and punchiness of the sealed box, vs the more boomy ported, and the app integration for being to have a DSP to do some correction in the room. I may add a second to the system later, but I have a feeling that will be a massive upgrade.
Finally the DAC. This is such a hard thing to judge off of spec sheets on a computer screen. In an ideal world, I’d buy multiple DAC’s, burn them in, A/B for multiple weeks, and then make my decision. I sadly do not have this luxury. Right now I’m leaning towards the Pontus II. For me, the streamer aspect isn’t a draw. I’d rather just have a dedicated DAC. If I get tired of the N130, I would most likely move to doing a RaPi4 with Roon integration, or something similar. Gustard’s A26 and R26 products peak my interest, but same as well with the Pontus II, and even the Holo Spring 3. I believe based on what I have read, while a DAC won’t completely change the sound of my system, it properly processing the signals to my amp, and limiting the noise coming through, will allow it to portray a better soundstage. I’m still trying to learn about R2R vs DS DAC’s, and which would be a better pairing for my speakers. Thank you all again for the insights you have provided thus far, and I’ll continue to monitor the forums for new products and opinions.
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SOIX nailed it with the Gustard R26. $1650 for BOTH an extraordinary DAC and streamer. My best system upgrade in 20 yrs. Denafrips is a great R2R too, but no integrated streamer. . . . for more $$s. System: Krells, Wilsons, Nola, Esoteric, Dynaudio.
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@chuck_tamu
I have the C-658 and have been using it for a year or so. I currently use it with a FirstWatt F6 as a streamer, DAC, phono stage (MM cart) and believe it to be the best bang for the buck out there. I also have the HDMI card installed and run a Panasonic UB9000 through that. It all sounds great to me. I previously used the C-658 with Rogue M-180 tube amps, a couple vintage power amps (Onkyo M-504, Sony TA-N80ES), all going into Focal Kanta No.2s. I have compared the DAC to an Auralic Altair G1 using a Yamaha CD-S1000 as a transport and I believe there is a slim line between the 2 devices as the G1 does add a little to the overall listening experience but again, at a significant cost increase. Are there better DAC/preamps for function and sound? Yes. But, IMHO not for the same monies.
I was considering selling mine but since I hooked it up to the F6 I may keep it as part of a 2nd system. It certainly is versatile.
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I’ve never tried 2 subs, so I don’t know what I’m missing, but adding one sub really helped, and my floorstanders do pretty good bass. I listen to Classical and there are so many low level percussion effects that many composers use that one could appreciate in a concert and now I can approximate at home. I would start with one sub and see how it goes. You can always add a second later
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Chuck, best of luck and let us know once you order!
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@soix @toro3
I'm going to just go DAC and subs. The preamp before the integrated probably is not a road I will go down, as there could be a lot of negative aspects.
Thank you all for you help on this. I've boiled it down to the 3-4 DAC's all mentioned in here, and I'll update this thread when I pull the trigger on one.
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I’m gonna reiterate — focus on the DAC, two subs, and speaker positioning first and then worry about room correction after that. You’re trying to do too much at once IMHO.
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Maybe I’m reading you incorrectly, but you can most definitely bypass BluOS and use Roon on the C-658 (and NODE). This is what I’m doing. Using the C-658 as a Roon end point and a Roon Nucleus (previously a MacBook as a Roon core).
I haven’t had to reboot the C-658, but I have experienced volume issues with the sub output with DIRAC not engaged. I’ve also experienced some clipping issues, but this was remedied by using Roon’s headroom management. In terms of DIRAC - mixed results and mixed emotions. I’ve found additional room treatments to be more my preference.
If this unit fits your needs, I’d say go for it, but I’d purchase from a dealer with a good return policy. In respect to the streamer itself, there’s better out there at this price point, but many fall short in features - especially if the NAD’s features are needed for a given setup. The one reassuring aspect is that this unit is continuing to receive updates which could potentially address the issues I mentioned.
Initially I thought your Yamaha was strictly an amp, but it looks like it’s an integrated. With the C-658 you’ll be putting a preamp in front of an integrated.
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@toro3
I appreciate you chiming in with your experience with the NAD. The unit itself has everything I want, there is no question about that. The price given what it has is also pretty impressive if I'm being honest. It seems like the QC on the unit however is less than ideal. Some people, like @kota1 and yourself have had minimal issues it seems. Others I'm reading have to constantly reset the damn thing every couple of weeks because of BluOS malfunctions, sound distortion, and a myriad of other issues. It's sad because I'm happy someone out there designed a product for exactly my use case, but there isn't frankly any competition sub $5k that I'm seeing, and the unit itself could only be a temporary piece in the long run anyway.
I'll wait to hear more feedback on my proposed MiniDSP solution, but lets say I ditch BluOS to go w/ something that supports Roon. (I'd prefer to stay away from HEOS/PlayFi/MusicCast. Frankly have had bad personal experience w/ both HEOS/PlayFi, and have heard of headaches w/ MusicCast) Does that open any doors? The things that aren't going to change in my system are the speakers, the amp, and the turntable, everything else is fluid and if I need to make concessions in a different direction so be it.
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Is there too much risk of added noise here?
BRP>TV>(Node) + (TT/Puffin)>MiniDSP>DAC>Yamaha= Yes, there is a risk of too much noise.
BRP+ TT + Node + TV>(DAC with built in DSP)>Yamaha= less risk, less $$$, hopefully better SQ
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I think you are right on the C-658, it is definitely going to be and upgrade from the Node, but I think it will most likely be my fall back option. I'm interested in doing a bit more research before throwing in the towel.
Owner of a C-658. It's an upgrade if you're planning on using DIRAC and have the need for two sub outputs with digital crossover - which can help ease the load of an amp (which is my primary reason for keeping it at the moment).
This unit increased in cost by quite a bit throughout the pandemic. For $2,000 there's a whole lot of competition out there in respect to streamers, especially on the used market. I feel like my Node 2i and MHDT DAC were more musical if I were to be completely honest. Definitely good that you're doing your research. Great thread btw.
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Alright guys, might have had a bit of a breakthrough, so let me know if this is something you guys know of and recommend, or if I'm off my rocker.
I'm willing to make the concession initially of my phono stage not having DSP, but I could always add it back in later with a phono stage that has a built in ADC. One that seems to get very good reviews is the Parks Audio Puffin. They have the option to get one with either a SPDIF out or Toslink out.
Have my UHD Blueray player connected to my TV, and run ARC to the Node 130. Connect Node 130 to ethernet (look into LPS upgrades and EMI filtering). Connect Node 130 to MiniDSP SHD Studio via USB. Have the turntable connect via Parks Audio Puffin to the MiniDSP SHD Studio via Toslink/SPDIF. Connect SHD Studio to DAC via AES-EBU. (I haven't found any DSP's that provide RC with an I2S output sadly. If anyone knows of one please let me know)
Is there too much risk of added noise here? I know that was brought up earlier in one of my posts. @soix in the DSPeaker unit you linked earlier, can that USB port be used for Audio in? I wasn't able to discern on their website/manual.
I appreciate you guys a lot, I know I have made it difficult on myself because of the Yamaha amp, but I fell in love with just about every aspect of that thing when I first listened to it.
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Chuck_Tamu,
The issue with the Node (even the 130) is that it is trying to be a jack of all trades at an extremely reasonable price. You've got class leading software development, streaming, DAC, power supplies, etc all in a $600 package.....all aspects cannot be state of the art, costs must be saved.
Lot's of Node owners have opted for a linear power supply (LPS) upgrade package, and report excellent results (blacker background, soundstage width, imaging, greater clarity)....the most common one I believe is the Teddy Pardo kit which comes in at $500 to $550 depending on your Node model.
I have experience with Alvin Chee who is principal distributor for LHY, Denafrips, and Jays Audio CD transports.....I have quite a complete Denafrips stack from DDC through amp and he did recommend the kit which comes in at $280 for the power supply upgrade with the LPS. I'll give it a try, see how much it improves things; and if not, I'm only out $280
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Just did a little upgrading. Hagerman Trumpet preamp. Fed by Swagman LPS.
Black ice DAC. Put together a set of open baffle speakers . Caintuck and Lii audio.
Also a new pair of Fritz Carbon 7's. Still have 30 year old Klipsch Fortes . Depending on what I listen to sometimes the music almost encircles me.
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When you get the ethernet hooked up, I would recommend a EMI/RF filter. The Netwotk acoustics ENO or MUON would be excellent. I have $50 Dx Engineering ones.
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@chuck_tamu
Its a little hard to pin it down. I believe it did clean up the noise. The music was clearer with more detail and a blacker background. I was pleasantly surprised at the result myself.
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@soix I can easily bring them out from the wall a bit more, but getting them closer is going to be difficult because my TV console is what is separating them. I'll see what I can do when I get home from work.
@daledeee1
Currently running WIFI, which I'm gathering is a big no no based on a couple of the other comments. I have a router not too far away, so a wired connection shouldn't be difficult.
@ronboco & @vthokie83
This is a completely new thing to me. What benefits would a linear power supply provide? Just clean up noise?
@adg101
Your advice is noted. While I have been a fan of REL in the past, and sold many of them, my AMP sadly doesn't support the high level input feature on their subs. This is why I had settled on SVS, mostly because of the solid app support to help tweaking the sub to be a bit easier. I'll look into JL Audio, as I haven't had the pleasure of listening to their stuff yet.
@kota1
I think you are right on the C-658, it is definitely going to be and upgrade from the Node, but I think it will most likely be my fall back option. I'm interested in doing a bit more research before throwing in the towel.
Thank you all so much for the responses. You all are really opening my eyes to so many different things I don't know if I could have gleaned by watching videos and sifting through forums myself.
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OP, until you get the room as close to "right" as possible (see the graph I posted) money on electronics is like putting lipstick on a pig as they say. You gotta measure AND listen, not one or the other. Get the room right first. That includes speaker positioning, room treatment, and DSP.
I think the NAD C-658 checks the boxes on a DAC upgrade to the Node and adding DIRAC to the mix.
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I (and several others on these threads) have ordered the recently released LHY power supply and LPS upgrade for the Node 130; the cost is $280 for both at Beatecknik. I have not received mine yet, and even when I do it will be a while until I have the time to get them installed and do any comparison......at least a month. The link to order is here
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$2-3k budget? Definitely look for a DAC as the one in any Bluesound device is ok at best, better as a streamer only. If you don’t upgrade to a LPS then definitely or regardless get a better C7 power cord and run ethernet not wireless. I’d look at spending $1k on the DAC and get a nice SPDIF cable that is at least 1M long, longer is better yet. Forget DSP for two channel and work on your room and speaker placement. With $2k left I wouldn’t entertain two lower priced subs, as they will not have the speed likely of one quality sub unless you want boomy bass, then why worry with room correction? Stick with one sub for now and look at REL as it will be the easiest for hookup going with their high level input. Later you can always add another sub if you feel you need it. Plenty of nice DAC’s for $1k that will outperform the Node easily, and REL has subs under 2K. JL Audio is another line of subs to look into. You get what you pay for.
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Are you running ethernet or optical from router to Node?
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@chuck_tamu
An external LPS for the node would be a noticeable upgrade and leave you with enough money for a nice stand alone DAC.
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Try the speakers 6’ apart and another 1-2’ out from the front wall. You should experience a nice boost in 3D imaging and larger/deeper soundstage and maybe even better overall frequency balance. Just try it and see what you find. And again, angle the speakers so they fire just outside your shoulders.
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The speakers are approximately 8 feet apart, and are spaced 1 foot from the front wall. There's about 2-2.5 feet between the speakers and the side walls.
If RC isn't going to be an option at this time, I understand. I still think upgrading the DAC, and getting subs will make this system complete.
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but listening to the difference in room correction made me a believer.
Yeah, I hear ya and I’m a believer too.
I have the speakers toe'd in toward my seating position in the room.
So, how far are the speakers from the front and side walls and how far apart are they? My experience with your speakers is they tend to work well when angled in so they point just outside your shoulders and not pointed right at the listener FWIW. I’m at a bit of a loss as to how to incorporate RC into your system as it is, but someone else here will probably have some good suggestions.
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Chuck_Tamu, here are some recommendations.....these will al be R2R ladder DACs.
(1) Denafrips - Pontus II 12th Anniversary DAC $1,850. You will find many many reviews on this DAC, almost all of them glowing. Add a Denafrips Iris DDC at $560, and you have a killer set up with the Node 130. This is the what I currently have (except I have the Pontus II and not the anniversary, and am extremely happy with it....especially at $2,400
Output USB from the Node 130 to the Iris DDC (bypassing the internal Node DAC), use I2S from the Iris DDC to the Pontus II 12th, and then from the Pontus to the Yamaha.
(2) I have never heard the Gustard in my system, so I can't offer an opinion.
(3) Soix already recommended Musician, and I have heard and enjoyed their DACs. I believe Soix uses the Pegasus with the Denafrips Iris DDC. I preferred the Pontus II over the Pegasus, both going through the Denafrips Iris DDC.
The Musician Aquarius is another animal entirely at $3,100. I compared the Pontus II and Iris DDC straight up against the Aquarius....and I must say that it was really close, the Aquarius is a rockstar. For some reason I did not add the Iris to the Aquarius, but my assumption is that it would be killer.
(4) Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE edition at $3,200. Another great DAC for the money. I lust after it's big brother the Holo Audion May DAC KTE.....but that is up at $5,600, and that brings a lot of other DACs into the mix
Hope that helps a little bit.
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@soix
The reason I wanted room correction stemmed from when I was auditioning different amps for my system. I went by a store that had an M33 set up with room correction, and they did an A/B listening experience, and it was one of the more mind blowing things I have listened to. The M33 was well outside my budget at the time, and there were some aspects of the sound that weren't my favorite, but listening to the difference in room correction made me a believer.
System is currently in a 13x20' room with about 10' tall ceilings. My seating position is approx 10-11' back from the speakers. I have the speakers toe'd in toward my seating position in the room.
@kota1
The proof is definitely in the pudding man. I think there are some aspects in audio that to someone like me would be more placebo than experience changing. But my ears definitely heard the difference in that demo, and it was incredible.
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OP, room correction is the real deal, I have a very well treated room which you need as room correction can’t do everything. When you add it to a well treated room it is WELL worth the cost of admission. Look at the graphs in my virtual system page. Here is just two channel graph, even before adding room correction I have a great room response but when you add the room correction WOW, I can just sit and listen on and on. When you A/B listen and compare corrected vs uncorrected you will never go back:
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With that system adding room correction is a pain. I also don't like the idea of room correction for stereo sound.
+1 @travelinjack I’d focus on the other stuff first and then deal with room correction later. @chuck_tamu Why do you feel you need room correction? Where are your speakers situated in the room? Often times experimenting with speaker placement can yield significant improvements, and it’s free!
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@vthokie83
I have the Node 130. I was going to ask if using the USB 2.0 port would have been the best connection to the DAC.
@audioman58
I appreciate the recommendation, I'm adding it to the list!
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Which Node do you have, the Node 2 (or 2i) or is it the newest Node 130 with USB output? Also don't worry about MQA, it's a farce
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Denafrips New pontus 2,12 anniversary around $2k nothing in the $3k range is as musical,a no brainer.
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With that system adding room correction is a pain. I also don't like the idea of room correction for stereo sound.
I would focus on a decent DAC and a decent phono preamp.
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@kota1 Good questions. Normally it’d be connected through the tape monitor jacks, but as I just saw his Yammy doesn’t have that it might be as easy as connecting the anti-mode between the pre out and main in jacks, but that’d need to be checked — I have my doubts. He could definitely connect the DAC to the Anti-Mode, but that’d leave the turntable with no room correction. Both DACs I recommended have HDMI inputs but not sure if they’d work with the with the Sony so that’d need to be checked as well. This is a bit of a tricky situation all things considered.
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The connections path you posted has too many connections for my taste. A lot of cables and connections means more potential noise and jitter. Audio Advice is an NAD dealer and recommended the C-658 when I was looking to upgrade my Node. I would follow up with a dealer and see if you can get one with a 30/60 day audition period. The price is attractive too.
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@soix
I had planned on getting two subwoofers, and SVS was at the top of my list due to the ability to control crossover and everything from an app. I have been very impressed in listening to the clarity and punchiness from SVS subs for the money. I don't think I could see myself going a different direction here.
I'm doing research into the Pegasus and Gustard DAC's as we speak. I really appreciate you pointing me into those directions. I've also now added the DSPeaker unit to my list as well.
@kota1
I think looking at the connections I would connect as follows:
UBP-X800 to TV via HDMI, TV to Node via ARC, Node to DSP via Toslink, DSP to DAC via Toslink, and then DAC to Amp via RCA. Part of me deep down wishes I would have saved another chunk of change for the A-S2200 for the balanced inputs, but I'm not that worried about it.
The NAD C-658 does seem to check all the boxes, and it is a unit that I was familiar with prior to posting on here. The only thing that is giving me pause is the amount of 50/50 feedback I have seen about the unit on forums like this and else where. Do you have this DAC?
Thank you both for your speedy responses, really appreciate the direction and advice given.
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OP, your Node will take care of MQA using the RCA outs. Most room correction software is either built into the preamp/integrated amp or is in a device that sits between your amp and preamp. You could insert a DSP device between a source like your Node and your integrated amp via RCA or s/pdif but you would need inputs of the right type for each source, including HDMI for your Sony.
Replacing the Node with an NAD C-658 will get you Dirac room correction, inputs for most of your devices (except HDMI), and a pair of sub outs for subwoofers.
The C-658 does have a "card" you can purchase that can add 3 HDMI inputs as well as an HDMI output you can insert. This should work for SACD two channel but ask the dealer to confirm before you pull the trigger.
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@soix
How do you propose the OP connect the DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 you recommend with an integrated amp? The Sony uses HDMI for SACD's, I don't see how this will work in the chain with out a separate amp and preamp???
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