DAC diminishing returns

Lots of really good suggestions and advice here.  In my mind none are more important than trusting your own ears.  I upgraded my DAC less than a year ago.  I set a budget and started to audition.  I had a dealer come to my house with 4 different ones on tow all at varied price points.  I heard subtle differences between all of them but not one was good enough to make me want to get rid of what I already had in my system.  He then plugged in a Weiss 502 and, for me, it was like crossing the street and getting a completely new perspective on what I was hearing.  This wasn't a small upgrade, it was a leap.  It was double my budget but I went into the safe and peeled off the cash.  Every day I listen I'm happy I did.

@firstgrowth Well, I didn't want to read that but I can believe it. The 502 seems very impressive and I am probably right where you were at. I am currently running a Denafrips Venus II and am waiting on a new HoloAudio May KTE, hoping this will be my end game DAC as the 502's price point is double my budget. Fingers crossed. 

@firstgrowth , the 502 looks like a cool toy. I mean that in a good sense. Do you personally set and forget it or change the settings to match the music?

Until earlier this week I would have agreed that the law of diminishing returns does apply to DACs (as it does to other hifi equipment in my experience). I started my streaming life with a Logitech squeezebox with built in DAC, moved on to their Transporter, then to a Lumin D1 and from there to separate DACs. First a Chord 2Qute, then a TT2, then added an M-Scaler (upsampler). Last week, I managed to find a good deal on a used Chord Dave. I was expecting similar incremental improvement as with all my previous upgrades, like slightly better placement, separation, somewhat tighter bass perhaps, more natural voices, even less sibilance, better reproduction of ambient sounds/noises on the recording. But I have been absolutely blown away by this upgrade. While it is bringing improvements on all these fronts, it is in doing so in spades. It is as if I am listening to a whole new system, sometimes suggesting multi channel presentation even though it is stereo. It has by far exceeded my expectations. Now, in fairness, the Dave, even at the second hand price I paid, was about double what I paid for the previous TT2. I leave it to you to consider what you would find a reasonable expected return for that extra money, but I have been surprised and blown away by the improvement it has brought to my system. I’m afraid the only way to establish the improvement a DAC can bring is to try it out. Hope you will find an upgrade that brings as much listening pleasure as my most recent one!

Shouldn't preamp, analog volume control be considered part of price/performance ratio. Many dacs don't have any means of volume control, others strip bits. In order  extracting maximum potential from these dacs requires some form of volume control, the quality of that volume control has major bearing on sound quality of that dac. Dacs with quality analog volume control built in may be far greater value than many assume at first glance.

@sns If you are building a minimalist system, built in volume control on a DAC\Streamer could be a huge cost savings. Then you have something like the Weiss 502 DAC mentioned above. Initially the price seems quite high, and I would say purely for the bare DAC electronics it is. However, when you include all the software features (if you use them), it seems reasonable for what is likely a relatively low volume product.

I’m going to enjoy my new DAC , it is messing with my mind how good a Non OS DAC can sound.  I fully intend to demo something like a Bricasti or something in that league before my one year trade up.  If the difference is that dramatic I will go all in….
 

I have always preached how important the preamp is and there is a lot of truth to that , but with a really good preamp the difference in source components can be heard and it’s not always subtle 

Many dacs don't have any means of volume control, others strip bits. In order  extracting maximum potential from these dacs requires some form of volume control, the quality of that volume control has major bearing on sound quality of that dac. 

This is true if your goal is to get the music as close to the original recording as possible. The Benchmark DAC3 paired with the ABH2 power amp will get you state of the art transparency for $5000. 

However, many of us would be in for a rude awakening with that level of transparency in our systems. Our tube preamps and R2R DACs add flavor or color to the sound...giving us a deeper and wider soundstage, additional layering, and weight to the sound...the perception of 3D sound.

I got spoiled with a remote DAC, especially with the features it had.  Remote volume, source, EQ, digital filter, balance , and on and on 
 

The DAC that replaced it has no features other than power and input .   Preamp has remote volume so it’s really not a big deal.  Sound is really good.    If I have to decide between sound quality and features it SQ every time…. I believe it when they say many hours of listening went into this DAC.   It sounds like it.  Very natural sounding.    Fatigue free, engaging.

@qkroes

Congratulations. That is the way it starts. My rule of thumb is never invest less than 2x… then you get a profound wow and significant jump in performance. I have gotten them periodically for fifty years as my systems continually exceeded my expectations.

I had a full Benchmark stack, DAC3B, LA4, AHB2 and could never get really engaged with the sound quality vs other components, Pass Labs, ARC, HoloAudio. I ended up selling the DAC3B but still have the LA4 and AHB2. The LA4 is a very nice sounding preamp and my favorite component out of that stack. The AHB2 sounds decent, on the warm side in my setup but when compared to a Pass X350.8, the Pass is a noticeable improvement top to bottom. Build quality is very nice on the Benchmark stuff and I think they are very good values but I'm not convinced of all the hype.

@qkroes 

Are you feeding your Dave with the M-Scaler, or is your huge improvement TT2+M-Scaler compared to standalone Dave?

@rockrider I am also using the M-Scaler with the Dave (as I was with the TT2), I haven’t tried the Dave solo yet, so can’t say how that would compare to the TT2+M-Scaler combo.

DAC was 3x and it was a solid purchase.  It is noticeably better , not just subtle differences.   Will something at the $6k to $7k price blow me away?  Who knows, but it will be interesting to find out 

I had a full Benchmark stack, DAC3B, LA4, AHB2 and could never get really engaged with the sound quality vs other components, Pass Labs, ARC, HoloAudio. I ended up selling the DAC3B but still have the LA4 and AHB2. The LA4 is a very nice sounding preamp and my favorite component out of that stack. The AHB2 sounds decent, on the warm side in my setup but when compared to a Pass X350.8, the Pass is a noticeable improvement top to bottom. Build quality is very nice on the Benchmark stuff and I think they are very good values but I’m not convinced of all the hype.

In my situation I have the LA4 and AHB2 (soon mono) and I pair that with a more engaging DAC, the Musetec 005.

I use my DAC3B with a RAAL VM-1a tube headphone amp that benefits from the very neutral to slightly bright DAC3B.

@qkroes 

Thank you. That is very helpful. 

@yyzsantabarbara I thought about adding a second AHB2, would be interested to know opinions on the improvement over a single stereo. Agree on the DAC3B, was too bright and hard sounding, put it in the system a number of times and it never stayed in very long.

@agbrace There is a very nice improvement on the sound with 2 AHB2’s. It becomes louder at the lowest gain setting (actually all 3 settings). It is way more powerful, if your speakers, need that power. On the spec sheet, monos are even quieter than the single stereo AHB2. The damping factor does go down.

Unfortunately, with my Thiel CS3.7 . the 2 Ohm requirement was not satisfied as nicely as the single stereo AHB2. However, the next 2 speakers I am looking to buy, the Yamaha NS5000 or KEF Blade META 2 can use the monos perfectly since they do not require the 2 Ohm power. I sold my Thiel CS3.7’s today so my next speaker purchase awaits.

I actually need to get a second AHB2 again because my best speaker cables are short length Audience FrontRow with SPEAKON terminations. Need to get another AHB2 to put that back into the system. It is a wonderful speaker cable.

@deludedaudiophile 

It's still breaking in so I've left all the settings alone.  Once I get the final 2 pieces to my system in place I'll start to fool around with the EQ settings.

dsfreeh,
Be sure to consider the Dac RME ADI 2 DAC FS. It’s the best DAC someone can find under 1300 and has several resources and the sound is like you are in the recoding room.

Everything the reviewers say about it is true. Believe in me.

The RME is a good transparent DAC. Looking at OP's gear, I don't think he is interested in neutrality. 

 Currently, I’m using a Schiit Bifrost Multibit DAC.  It’s connected to my Naim Nait 5Si and that drives Zu Omen ii speakers.

Sacrista,

I pulled the trigger and bought a Denafrips Ares ii.  I like it so far, it is a nice fit with my current setup.  Great return for the price. Better than my Bifrost, which I moved to a secondary system.  I did consider RME. It has many features that I probably won’t take advantage of.  I would probably be always fiddling with sound, driving myself nuts.  It sounds like a well regarded Dac.

Thanks

dsfreeh, 

Enjoy your brand new DAC. This is most important than anything else. This group is very helpful and it’s very good.

Go ahead!

Enjoy your brand new DAC. This is most important than anything else.

Not true! It's more important that we approve the choice. 🤣

I had thought of upgrading my Audio Alchemy DDP-1 + PS 5 (DAC/PRE). Fortunately, I came across an AGon thread mentioning Ali-Express Nordost knock off cables. I decided to stick my toe in the water and bought a Odin 2 coax cable and was shocked how much better my system sounded then my Pangea Premier XL. I then bought a Odin 2 PC and XLR interconnects, more jaw drops, then I bought the cheaper Nordost PC (<$60!) for my PS 5 outboard power supply and my Audiolab CDT6000> speaker cables. Ditto: crazy improvements for very little investment. One component left was my Core Power 1800 PLC. For it I bought the Nordost Gold PC (<$100!). When it arrived I was torn between putting on my transport or the PLC. Fortunately, I decided on the PLC as I was familiar with the systems overall sound. Could it make a difference over my 15 year old heavy gauge, stiff boutique PC, and if so how much? Oh my, but on a micro-level like cleaning a window, which revealed deeper, wider, taller stage improving focus of tiny sounds deeper into the sound stage, AND, bass.

So for way less than the price of my very well know speaker and interconnects, I realized my DAC is just fine. FYI all come with FREE returns. You just have to be patient as it take ~ 3 weeks to arrive

hth

congrats, @dsfreeh !

tweak1

My current dac, is the Audio Alchemy DDP-1 dac/pre

I am using that and loving it. I have been shopping for a tube preamp, which will mean picking a separate DAC, and it's been frustrating. I am spoiled by the DDP-1, having the DAC/preamp/headphone amp all in one box. It's a really good unit, especially for the price. Robert Harley gave it a great review back in 2016 ... 6 long years ago.

The new T+A 200 DAC/preamp (with excellent headphone stage) is essentially a newer, better version of the DDP-1, and I am told its DAC section is superb. But—it is about $7500! Ouch.