D'Agostino vs. Ayre

Congratulations Mr Goodtools. You now have some truly great amps to audition with your Alexias. Not that I want to prejudice your judgement but I suspect I know how the audition will proceed. Happy listening to you. At this stage it's personal preference and you simply can't go wrong. Unless you disagree with my infallible opinion!🎶😎

@tomic601 
Sorry for not responding, but I am in my busy season. I really am a gardener.
 I have don't have the CT Treo's, just the plain vanilla ones (from ctsooner). Moving from my DNA-1 with gold upgrades/RLD-1 to the Atma MA-1/MP-3 was like having a veil lifted. As I told Ralph, neither I nor my partner thought it could get any better, but it did- and quite significantly, and for the better in all manner. Like: Wow!
@Mrgoodtools,
I suspect your D'ag amps will give you as much pleasure as the Atma's.
Maybe a little differently, but in a good way. 
My DNA-1 is at SMc Audio for an upgrade to monoblocks (I bought a second amp). Steve and Pat know what they are up against and are accepting the challenge-Tube vs. SS. I,too, hope to find out.
@khrys , how do you get emoticons? My reply box doesn't offer it.
Bob

I've spent a good portion of the past 5 days listening and swapping the D'Agostino S-250 with Ayre MX-R Twenties in my system. The following is what I hear. 

The associated system is a Berkeley Alpha Reference 2 processor feeding the amps directly or thru an Ayre KX-R Twenty preamp. Interconnects are Audioquest WEL Signature or Synergistic Research Element CTS. Speakers driven are Wilson Alexia's and cables are Synergistic Research Galileo LE.

First let me say the Ayre and D'Agostino amps are more similar than different. They are more similar than Audio Research, Pass Labs, Atma Sphere, Krell, all of which I've heard in my system. So their differences are quite small. That said, they are not the same, but differ throughout their presentation.

In the bass, the D'Agostino amp is both meaty and exercises control in the low frequencies. The Ayre is a little more resonant and wooly. Advantage D'Agostino.

In the essential mids, the Ayre amps give an illusion of speed and clarity. The S-250 is richer and fuller. The Ayre images clearly interact within the speaker plane. The D'Agostino amp engulfs the listening arena. My wife made a solid comment. She said the S-250 is rich without being murky.

In the highs, I thought piano thru the Ayre's was the best solid state treble I'd heard. Until I heard the D'Agostino. Its richness extends into the highs with a purity and wholeness. 

One system concern with the highs. The Wilson speaker does not accentuate the highs and neither does the S-250. Combine that with the Spectacular Galileo LE's which also tip toward darkness, and the highs sounded a little subdued. I substituted a set of 7.9 ohm tweeter resistors for the stock 9 ohm set, which should increase the tweeter output by about .5-.6 db. Perfect. The sparkle in the highs returned with flawless integration with the mids.

When I think Ayre, I think clarity, speed, resolution. When I think D'Agostino, I think musical integration. 

So, the verdict, to me, in my system, is that I prefer the harmonic richness and overall musicality of the D'Agostino S-250. I also found no channel separation issues that would make me wish for mono amplifiers.

One negative of the S-250 being a stereo amplifier, is the lack of space on the rear to accommodate large, thick audiophile cables, interconnects, and a power cord. I made it work, but it wasn't easy.

Great review imgood.
I, too, dislike having to manhandle my power cords and interconnects. Though some of the blame should be directed at the cord and cable manufacturers. Why make something so unwieldy that it will not be able to used?
Considering the price differential, don't you think the Ayre a worthy competitor.
Bob

Absolutely. I'm a huge Ayre fan. I preferred the MX- R Twenties to Many other amps, both solid state and tubed. Just, in this case, and in this system, I prefer the D'Agostino S-250 to the Ayres. The differences aren't huge, but they are significant.

Great review Mr Tools. I was frankly surprised. I thought you'd prefer the precision and inciveness of the Ayre's vs the organicisity of the the D'ags. Especially on such randomly ported speakers like the  Alexias. With no disrespect but these speakers are compromised derivatives. The Alexxes and Yvettes are Wilson's forward thinking. And great speakers. The Alexia's are the bloated deathnell of the the  Watt/Puppy dynasty. Get some high powered tubes ASAP. 

The Alexia 2 will be out by the end of the month. It'll be interesting to hear what they're about.

Yes it will. Unfortunately for Wilson the Yvettes far surpass the Alexias in every category except loudness. 
One can only hope the Alexia 2 is a mini Alexx which is probanbly the best loudspeaker I've ever heard. 
My YG Sonias 1.2 notwithstanding. 

Thank you for that comparison.  It's not every day I get to read real world thoughts on 2 great amps.  

Hi goodwithtools,
I wonder if your speakers are not quite optimal for Atma MA-1s (even with your upgrades). According to Atkinson's review the Alexias are quite demanding. I changed from a Krell FPB600 to MA-1s and have not looked back. I followed Ralph Karsten's advice and bought speakers designed for OTL amps (Audiokines Dream Makers). The amp/speaker match is now excellent. After I got their effect speakers too, to fill out my rather large room, I sold the Velodyne DD18 sub, no need for it. Especially now, with the Aesthetix Io back from repair. It sounds amazing.

You are exactly on point, o_holter. The Atma Sphere amps were Great. They delivered a level of clarity, in the mids and highs, that I don't think I've heard anywhere else. They simply could not drive the bass on my Alexia's, and that was a system matching problem. Instead of pursuing an impedance matching device, I decided to sell my Atma Spheres and move in another direction.

Mr Tools as you've gathered I'm not a fan of the Alexias. I think they are the best of Wilson's previous technologies but I hope I did not come across as disparaging. They are great speakers by any measure and I'd live with them gladly. But the real magic does come out with pairing them with high powered tubes IMHO. That is frequently impractical I realize and I think your choice of the S-250 is more than a superb compromise and likely a definitive alternative. 
Most happy listening to you sir,

khrys

Hey khrys. I'm not offended or disparaged by your opinion, or any comments on here. I'm a bottom feeder. I know that. And I work on a budget. The top end of my budget when assembling this system was $100K. I have paid full MSRP for One component in my rack, the Berkeley. And only because I Love it, and couldn't find one at a discount. Everything else I have is either dealer demos or used equipment. This philosophy has allowed me to put this together for just over my budget. And I Love the sound of this system. I do intend to try a VTL S-400 II. But only when I can find one for $18K, or less. And Alexia 2s might have to wait 2-3 years. Happy listening to you, too.

Hey Mr Goodtools. How’s the S-250 working out?
Have you heard the Alexia IIs? Stunning speaker. Seems more designed for SS than the original. 
I still think your current setup should be revelatory.

Good listening to you sir,

K

Hi khrys,

I love, love, love the D'Agostino S-250. It has Plenty of power, as the power meters have never surpassed about 20 watts in my system. And its hugely musical. I do want to eventually swap in a VTL S-400 II, but the system as presently configured is so alluring that I've pretty much given up equipment upgrades and have been concentrating on the music. 

I've driven the S-250 to great results, both directly with my Berkeley Alpha Reference 2 DAC, and a slightly modified Audio Research Reference 6 preamp.

I have not yet heard the Wilson Alexia 2s. But I do plan to be at Rocky Mountain Audio Fest this coming weekend in Denver. And I see at least one pair of Alexia 2s on the bill...
.

Great review Mr. Tools, could you please clarify slightly modified Ref 6 comment.

I've found the Audio Research Reference 6 to communicate an unsurpassed level of presence and three-dimensionality while remaining tonally neutral. Class A all the way -- with only some reservations in the high frequencies: a slight lack of richness and sparkle, most easily heard with piano.

I've found several tweaks, when used together, enhance the high frequencies of the Reference 6: first, a Synergistic Research Black Quantum fuse; and second, a Sain Line Systems Pure Current power cord. Those two tweaks on the power-supply side get you 80% there. As a final note, I swapped in a set of matched, cryogenically treated, low-noise 6H30 tubes from Upscale Audio and an NOS Winged "C" 6550C power tube. Now, class A ++, with no reservations.

A new Blue Synergistic fuse is on the way.

Had a nice chance to compare the two top of the line offerings recently.  It was surprising how different they are in terms of presentation.  If anyone is interested, I wrote up a full report on my virtual system page.

Interesting comparison, bar81.  I, too, consider the Ayre Twenty series top-notch. I would not consider them inferior to D'Agostino or Audio Research electronics. Just different. My thoughts have both been documented in this thread, and in another called Ayre vs. Audio Research. My system sounded truly wonderful with all Ayre electronics. And it sounds absolutely magical now, with Audio Research and D'Agostino electronics.

I haven't heard the D'Agostino's but I have never hear Ayre's sound thin or lean except cold.

Best,

E

As a proponent of the Synergistic Black fuse in my Audio Research Reference 6, I was curious how the new Blue fuse would sound. Simply put, I do not like it in my system. It's as if some of the energy has been zapped from the presentation, especially in the highs. I'm going back to Black.

The D'Agostino has more meat on the bones.  I prefer that to the Ayre which is still very good but a little too polite for my tastes.

Both are excellent.

I finally found this thread again. Lots of great information- and presented in a friendly way.
This is how audiophiles can learn.
@OP  I think you really nailed the differences between the Ayre and D'Ag amps.
Pat at SMc makes a similar case for the Synergistic Black Fuse,too. As a 'budget minded' buyer, I hate to indulge in fuses, but hearing from such distinguished reviewers convinces me to give it a try. 
Bob

thoughts ?
i went with the Vandersteen amps....... pretty excited to say the least
5 weeks away.....
contact Randy at Optimal if you want a nice VX-R Twenty in black
and to think i claimed to rarely change gear

Let me say this: I know the components I'm running right now might not be drop-dead neutral. But, Man, that slightly modified Audio Research Reference 6 feeding the D'Agostino Master Audio Systems Momentum S-250 is So Musical. Wow! Even Dan D'Agostino admits that his latest creations don't measure as well in the lab as some of his old Krell stuff. He went for musicality over measurements.

Tweaks, on the other hand, are, well, tweaky. Inconsistent. I probably would be looking for another preamp right now had the Synergistic fuse and the Sain power cord not been so effective. But I did try aftermarket fuses in Ayre amps, when I had them, with little change in sound. I tried a Sain power cord on the D'Agostino. Nope. A little to lean. I went back to the stock cord. So, my experience with tweaks is that what might work well in one component or system might not be beneficial in another.

Glad you're enjoying the S250.  I've got one in my listening room too and it is a phenomenal amp.  And you won't find finer people in this business than the D'Agostinos.

I remember back, maybe 20-25 years ago, I was considering becoming an electronics engineer. I wanted some feedback from some highly-respected audio companies on specifically what skills they require. I picked up the phone and called Krell. After explaining my desires to a receptionist, she put me directly through to Mr. Dan D'Agostino. He spent 20 minutes on the phone with me and answered all my questions. He didn't have to do that. But he Did. Major respect for Mr. Dan D'Agostino.

Any update on the comparison of your Dan'Ag vs the Ayre? 

I've sold the Ayre equipment, and am currently running a D'Agostino S-250 stereo amplifier. I've found it pretty much has everything. Clarity and Control, along with some harmonic richness. Highly musical. I am completely satisfied. The only amp I really want to hear in my system is a VTL S-400 II.

well ??????????

i traded in my Ayre for Vandersteen amps

@tomic601 
Well, you aren't the only one. That is how I got a pair of MX-R's.
I can't help but wonder if the OP had used a set of Zero Autoformers with the Atma amps, he might have not made a switch...
In any case, I am glad he enjoys the D'Agostino  amps. I wish I could afford them.
Bob

gdnrbob.....all part of living in the spon cycle...
i hear ya, if my lil mac240 wont run the treos I will build out a set of Ralphs kit amps.....

@gdnrbob The Atma-Spheres were Excellent, especially in the mids and highs. I think they just could not deliver enough current for the sub-2ohm load of my Alexia's in the bass. 

The D'Agostino S-250 is equally excellent, but across the whole frequency spectrum. I Love It. If you can score a used or demo S-200, the cost to upgrade to an S-250, I believe, is $7500. And there is No Comparison between the original D'Agostino M-300 or S-200 vs. the new M-400 or S-250. I'm looking forward to hearing a VTL S-400 II in my system, maybe someday. Will it be better than the D'Agostino?? I don't know.

I heard the Alexia 2s at RMAF. Amazing loudspeakers. Driven by all Nagra electronics, they were truly magical. And that's under show conditions. I understand Wilson has redesigned the crossover in the Alexia 2s to make them more amp friendly in the bass.

@OP,
The Zero Autoformers would have compensated for the low impedance of the speakers. I know Ralph recommends them for older Maggie's which have the same characteristics.
Though my Vandy Treo's are fairly easy to drive, I bought a pair of Zero's to try. Steve McCormack says they do make a difference, too. So, I want to give it a try-just for fun. If a SS and Tube guy can agree on something, maybe it has some credence.

B

@gdnrbob.  
I find it interesting, in theory, that a designer like Ralph Karsten specifically omits the output transformer in his designs (hence the OTL) to eliminate the distortion caused by the induction in an output transformer. Then someone, like Zero Autoformers, creates a transformer in a box to be added to the signal chain to alter the impedance. But the only thing that matters is the sound. Please let us know what you hear if you try some.

gdnr

RV said this about the autoformers in my Mac 202...

move on and never look back

he may actually have been more direct
it has been like 7 years....

Mr. V. can be a bit brusque but his heart is in the right place and I value his intuition and knowledge.
Be that as it may, I will give the Zero's a try, and post my impressions.
This is the fun part of putting together stereo systems.
Well, at least for me.
B

gdnr

no kidding i chat with him most every week
he would say listen to them for sure !!!!!

There's a gorgeous D'Agostino S-250, 230V,  on Audiogon right now for $23K.
That might be worth running a dedicated 230V circuit for...

Not that it matters much but unless he got a S250 in the old casing for some unknown reason it's an original S200 upgraded. Should sound the same in any case. 

I started a separate thread, but has anyone here heard the new Gryphon amplification?  I'm very interested in how they might compare to D'Agostino.