Curious .. What is the compared price of your tt vs spkrs
Ok people im curious what is the price range of you entire analogue set up vs your spkr s with cables .. I often wonder what a guys table set up is when he is running a set of wilsons , or the 25k tt guy .. my tt setup is about 75-80% of my spkrs with cable , but i have a sub I occasionally use lol add another $$ so with that probly 60 -70% thanks
I,d rather hear a clean source thru mid grade speakers ,then mid grade source through high end spkrs .Balance is key(as a musician),I grab my prs or my martin guitar and plug it into a decent amp(even a practice amp ) vs grabbing my mid grade epihone and play it through a nice tube marshall ..I plug the prs into the tube marshall ..But again i believe the room acoustics play a large role in the overall performance of spkrs.The tt is gonna perform its task in any room(yes a good match cart tonearm etc ) just my two cents. with my sub I,m about even,not because i chose it just went that way.I can say it will overtake the spkrs when i step up in level with cartridge.currently i run a benz ace (classic 1)
I also believe that at a level ,you determine what that is** .The speakers will overtake the tt. If you have a 200k pair of wilsons in a custom room ,well it will be an expensive anolgue rig ,but cost to me doesn't mean great sound in all cases ..
Nadric, You are correct,this discussion started by a mid night thought and pure curiousity .I started the discussion just for fun to hear some imput.It was never meant to credit or discredit anyone choices .
I have an ancient Linn LP12 with a Rega RB300 arm and a Denon DL-110 cartridge. Current market value is probably about $1100. My speakers are custom built Linkwitz Orions. They are a full system with an active crossover and 8 channels of amplification. I picked up a used B&K AV1260 which does a nice job. Figure about $5000 for that package. I have $1500 into a VTA SP13 tube preamp with PH12 phono stage. Because it uses 8 channels, I have 8 runs of 25' long cable. I use 14 gauge zip cord from Parts-Express - cost is about $200 with connectors, etc.
I never looked at this as what percentage I should spend here or there. I’ve just always felt I wanted to get more bang for my limited audio buck. Y'all can laugh at my 14 gauge zip cord all ya want. Everyone who's ever heard my Orions has left with envy. Everyone... including people with 10 times as much invested in their systems.
My speakers and turntable source are both vintage. The speakers are Acoustat 2+2 that I bought used for $1400 and the speaker cables are new Black Cat Silver Heart at $1000. That's $2400 for the speakers and cable, which I consider a true bargain.
The turntable is a Lenco L75 with a large plinth and ADA MG-1 air bearing tonearm ($3500) and Denon DL-103R cartridge ($300). The turntable sits on a Nobility Magnetic Levitating stand ($350). Phono cables are Audience Au24SE low z that I bought used ($600) connected to a Jeff Rowland Consummate phono amp ($1000). TTweights record weight and Opera RCM as well ($1000). That's $6750 for the turntable and associated gear to play $2 value village finds.
So that's about 2 1/2 times to 1 for tt vs speakers. But I had to spend a bit to find an amp that works well with the electrostatic speakers. The best so far are my Ray Lumley M-100 tube mono blocks with KT-120 tubes at $4000 including tubes.
Dear @oleschool: In the very old times I remember the many years " defunct/dead " Stereo Review magazyne that over the years they posted a % relationship between: speakers, front end, amp and the like. They did it as a " secure " road to people and especially new audio people. Many of us followed that kind of " expert advise ".
Through the time almost all of us learned about and still are learning each single day.
My " $$$/%% "" priorities are in this order: LPs, room conditioning, true full range speakers, front end, IC and speaker cables, Phonolinepreamp, amps and somewhere in between an audio system dedicated electrical line. Of course the skills and knowledge level to make the overall audio system set up as accurate as we can with the self capacity to be aware that our set up is just rigth as it should be.
My frist TT was 50% of my speakers and cables. Now My speakers are only 30% of my TT. When I upgraded the TT I wanted to do it once. Started with a Rega RP1pp w/ a couple of upgrades and Rega Exact cartridge.the new TT is a Clearaudio Performance DC w/ Clarify tonearm ,Talisman V2 Gold ,Outer Limit record weight , HRS Analog Disk, linear power supply and Musical Surroundings Nova 2 Phono stage As your system improves it's not going to fit into some budget formula and at different stages you might have bigger or smaller budget. You can see my setup in Virtual Systems
It's not like there is a directly proportional relationship between price and sound quality. You can have an under-performing front end or speaker and the other end of the chain might be an over-performer that functions at a much higher level than it should at the given price.
That is going to tend to blur results on this sort of survey.
My systems were for years comprised of well assembled front ends and less expensive but over-performing speakers (Vandersteen,, Energy, Spica). My ratio then would have been about 4:1 in favour of front end.
After a recent upgrade my cost ratio has reversed to about 2:1 cost, speaker to front end (turntable, arm, cartridge and phono preamp).
$20k Shindo 301 TT paired with Altec 846A Valencia's acquired used from the original owner's son for $1200. I wouldn't call it an upgrade but perhaps down the road (after I get into my final NorCal digs), I'd consider acquiring a pair of Devore Orangutan O/96's while keeping the Altecs.
Interesting hearing the comments ..Raul .. I am a musician so i think that way, just me .. Room acoustics play a huge role no matter who says what period! Sometime playback can be epic with less pricey spkrs or equipment . Often it corralates with volume your hoping to achieve . I dont know how far back to some i go but at 17 (1985) started really getting serious with my audio gear and guitars for that age i bought my first magnepans with a luxman amp then began selling high end gear, and was a live sound engineer for some big names in the 90s .. Ive seen acoustics wreak havoc on sound .. Its al about balance and unless you roll upgrades are gradual ..
Yeah, first things you do are room acoustics and wall current. Oleschool, I once heard Paco de Lucia perform in a great concert hall playing incredible custom Conde flamenco guitar. Now that was a sound I will never forget, not to mention the music.
Nice comments in this thread. I also tend to believe in the weakest link approach.
In my experience upgrading aspects of the turntable can lead to nice incremental improvements in the sound quality, while upgrading speakers often changes the "character" of the sound. In my system I think I have about the same retail equivalent value on my turntable/preamp as I do on my speaker/amps, but in actual money spent (out of pocket) or current market value, I have spent 3x more on my turntable/preamp than I did on speaker/amp.
It is a difficult question (which is more important, front-end or speakers), but I can say a few things - I love my acoustat 1+1 ESLs and Golden tube SE40 and they work in my room extremely well. They were not expensive, but "punch above their weight". total retail maybe around $3000 in 1990s dollars ($5500 in today’s dollars using inflation calculator). But it cost me $1000 used when I bought them. - Even a Rega Planar3 with grado (my first turntable) sounded very good with these speakers and amp ($600 in 2000 dollars) - Every upgrade of my turntable/pre has been worthwhile and enjoyable. Currently using systemdek IIX-900, RB300, Denon DL301, BAT VK20 with phono board maybe retail value of $5500-7000, but it cost me ~$3000 out of pocket.
Now that I have found my little nirvana with my acoustat 1+1 and SE40, I can easily see myself continuing to spend more and more on my analog front end and might get to a point where I spent >$10,000 upgrading my turntable/pre setup, feeding my $1000 market-value ($3000/$5000 retail) speaker/amps and this would not bother me and I would not feel like I would need to upgrade my speakers to "match" the expensive front end.
Inna , Perfect example of room acoustics same show in a bar probly not the same sound ,paco is great ..being around some of the biggest rock musicians in my life and being in the sound engineer field ( which can make quirky seem normal ) it still amazes me the reactions to comments by audiophile elite ( not in this post particularly mostly articles ). There are so many amazing people in this hobby , but sometimes the elite snobbyness can be a real turnoff . Just my simple opinion, i love playing the tunes , mixing them live or in the studio and i love listening to them all by my lonesome 😬 At my house hidden in the norcal mtns 👍 Almost always vinyl
It's the same everywhere, there are many excellent people but some are too arrogant and inconsidering, and this can become 'radioactive'. I am having a hard time of listening to any digital after analog. Playing the tunes and mixing in the mountains..there is something primal and basic in it, direct contact with things within and without.
Thanks inna I have somewhat walked away from the music scene amomg others . I enjoy music in general all music .. I find a zen space when im in my listening room spinning vinyl . I simply had a thought one night " i wonder what percent a person has wrapped up in there anolgue section compared to there entire system" it was never meant to alienate or include anyone . I have a decent system az adagios mf nu vista and vpj classic etc i though to myself what does a guy with a 250 k set of wilsons use , it never discounted the dp35 denon guy running nht spkrs. My guitar collection .. Well its serious so i get the extremes and mutiple units and gear . I'm mellow now and just kick back and raise my daughter with my wife . Luckly i still can have a set 2:1 room seperate ht room and my own studio 😬 I rarely get to use any of them lol
well this gets into another issue but I agree about vinyl. I didn't set out to be a vinyl addict as a lifestyle choice or a philosophical stance. It doesn't matter to me in the end if analog or digital is better, and I'm sure that in the long run digital will improve vastly (already is).
But that said, I find vinyl and digital to be very different. Digital sounds nice to me but artificial, like a carefully manicured golf course that doesn't really look like old Scotland after all. Vinyl records - a good one, clean and well recorded - makes me snap to and listen, as if the music is being performed for the first time. Much as I try, I can't explain it. But it's magical.
as for the bit about how you start, what's most important in a system, what part should cost as much as what other part, etc etc - I don't really see why there's a hard and fast rule. What matters (to me) is the discovery, the process of learning to hear and train your ears, and how to buy stuff without ruining your finances. No two people will, or should, do it in the same way. no?
Dear @jollytinker : """ But that said, I find vinyl and digital to be very different. Digital sounds nice to me but artificial ............. Vinyl records - a good one, clean and well recorded - makes me snap to and listen, as if the music is being performed for the first time.
""
Some way or the other both recorded medium are " artificial " in the sense that is not live MUSIC.
Both medium are imperfect ones and both with several kind of every kind of distortions through the recording and playback overall process that at the same time puts many limitations, either, to the digital or analog/LP medium.
Those each one medium limitations/distortions are the ones that makes the differences we listen through.
Today digital medium almost has no limitations/distortions or are severely lower than in the LP medium and perhaps the digital real limitation is our quality performance level in the home audio system. That " artificial " that you name it is exactly what I'm saying and it's not " artrificial " sound but truer reproduced sound to the recording. What we are hearing through the best in analog medium are not only some kind of diferent ( many of them ) sound but its very high kind of distortions and limitations against the digital medium that's " years a head " on that: truer to the recording.
Many of us are accustomed ( for many years. ) to those very high analog distortions/limitations and we are accustomed to " live " away from what was take it by the recording microphones and we can't do nothing about other that try to mantain the distortions generated at each link in the home audio system link at minimum a very hard task that needs high knowledge levels to do it.
Anyway, we all in this forum are because first than all because we are MUSIC lovers. I hope all of us ???
We can, given a great room and a good signal chain, get excellent performance out of a particular speaker not costing an arm and a leg. The speakers need to be good though, but a great chain can make some not so pricey speakers perform well. To few music lovers fail to optimize the room. There is really no right balance per se. I'm at 120 %, Trans Fi Linear arm, Salvation TT, vintage Fidelity Research Cart and BAT VK P10SE running Zu Def 4's. All tube, dynamics, bass, warmth, tone-did I say dynamics? The reason there is no right answer is that synergy can be found for each of us at different price points for components. Whats really enjoyable about this thread is seeing how so many music lovers go about their process and how important it is. Wouldn't most on here like to sample most of the systems mentioned here. We could all learn quite a bit.
Agreed ...wow how cool would that be . As for the room acoustic i spent most of my life dealing with acoustics . They can be deal breakers i have read people write about placement and this and that making little difference . Well from my experience as a sound engineer its makes one hellava difference . As i said a great acoustical space can make a modest system sound great . Volume is what we tend to pay for or the ability to fill large spaces . For instance i have acoustic zen adagios ( which are killer) 5k msrp in a 13x 16 x10 something like that . Mr lee says there is no reason to upgrade to his next spkrs 14 k it will be overkill . Just like when i had mg 1.7( cple grand )if i had 3.5 it would be too much . Now in my humble opinion either of these the adagio or my 1.7 would benefit from a killer front end . How much ? Well thats in the eye of the beholder some people think youve lost your mind when you have 25 k in a 2:1 system . Some have that in cables ya now .
I feel a better comparison would be turntable + speed controller + tonearm + cartridge + phono stage compared to the speakers + amplifier. We will leave the pre-amp alone as it connects the two.
I feel a better comparison would be turntable + speed controller + tonearm + cartridge + phono stage compared to the speakers + amplifier.
If that were the case, my table/arm/cart, motor controller and phono stage ($13,140) would equal about 57% of the list price of my amplifier and speakers together ($22,880).
Quite a difference from the 100% I reported earlier, mostly because my amp is quite a bit more expensive than my speaker cables. Go figure.
My speakers are hard to price because they are part of a complete, matched system. I purchased them as demos from the gear's designer, but I also both the TT used. Best estimate is that the TT cost 1.15 times the speakers' selling price. That number is, however, implicitly misleading because mine are active speakers: the crossovers are onboard the amplifier to avoid the spurious vibrational and EMF interference that could result from vibrations within the speaker cabinets.
I want to add an analogy to the discussion of the turntable --it may work for some and not for others. I've been a photographer for decades, going back to the time of large format view camera photography.
In photographic performance (as I see it), the camera has to serve two functions: it has to be light-tight and hold the film flat. If there's no provision for optical correction (movements at the lens or film planes) then the camera also bears responsibility for holding the lens exactly perpendicular to the film. That's about it.
In turntable design, a turntable's responsibilities are similar. First and uncompromisingly foremost, the turntable must revolve at an accurate speed and have sufficient torque to 'power trough' complex passages in an LPs groove. Second, it must center the LP properly on the platter, and finally it must hold the tonearm in a firm and rigid position relative to the vinyl playing surface.
In my opinion, though none of these is even remotely trivial, the list of requirements is relatively short, when compared to the duties of either the tonearm or cartridge.
The cartridge has to decode and transmit the physical input from the groove to the tonearm cable. Implicit in this process is both converting the physical movement of the stylus in the groove to electrical impulses and amplifying that signal. The ratio of movement to signal is of such an order of magnitude that the precision required is of a very high order indeed.
The tonearm has the challenge of positioning the cartridge perfectly in its relationship to the groove and preserving the integrity of the signal so collected in its transmission to the phono preamplifier. It must also provide sufficient adjustability to allow for fine tuning for each individual LP, were the operator to wish to do so.
I don't believe it's a fair statement, or at least not a comprehensive answer, to say that the turntable in any given system can be assessed on its price alone (or its price ratio to the other transducer), if only because the TT's task is so complex, and also because the TT is, actually, a System in itself, as well as as subset of the listening system as a whole. Furthermore, the TT has so many variables: it has to be setup exactingly; the arm, cartridge and cable have to work together in complimentary fashion; and the TT has to match the system perfectly: phono pre, amplifier, cabling, and speakers. That's a heck of a lot to do.
I think this has been an interesting and satisfying discussion which I have enjoyed. I hope this perspective is of use as well.
cdk I enjoyed that and I agree this indeed has been interesting.I enjoy the conversation.This hobby has so many small and large variables.Matching the complete setup creating the synergy is the key coupled with the right space and of course the optimum lp or any source.
VPI HRX Ordered with two arms, but not extra armboard........ Transfiguration Proteus Hashimoto HM7 stepup going to Convergent SL1 Renaissance Bryston 28BSST2 amps Esoteric K-03 SACD Player Bryston BDP2 (use K03 DAC) Magnepan 3.7
I've recently changed, (for better or for worse) my system dramatically.
The constant: VPI Classic 3 Sig SE My other components/cables are pretty updated.
When I recently went into the $4k speaker range, I was astonished!
(My amp is in the $6k range, although it punches WAY above),
I found that my current phono cable wasn't up to snuff.
It wasn't until I made a change in my Acoustical treatments that addressed my specific issue, (bass boom/bloat), that I was able to put my system as a whole, in another range altogether!
Having said all of this... it is my (room) that I've paid most attention to. I recently went with some different bass traps in the front wall corners designed to specifically address the issue I thought I had. WOW!
My speakers are aging Focal Electra 936s $6700 when bought. I use Jena cable copper braid, near entry level ( larger are too rich for my blood) for Speaker cables. I like this cable a lot.
The TT is a classic Scout about $1900. My Cartridge is a heavily discounted Dynevector 20X H.O. list price at the time was about $700. The Phono stage is the Graham Amp 2 SE, then more costly than today ($400) then it cost approx. $500- Sounds great using Homegrown Silver Lace cable to phono.
My TT (arm and cartridge included) msrp is $1500. My speakers msrp is $ 4500.
But luckily for me, I got my TT for $600 and the speakers for $2000. All brand new. The reason is: Turntable was the demo in the store and the speakers came out of the factory with some finishing imperfections (some shades on the painting). All in all it was an amazing deal!
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