Srajan Ebaen’s / Six Moons Nenuphar Mini Basis review is nearing completion. Given the recent discussion, Page 6 may be useful to those using / considering SIT amps. Page 7 offers an insightful comparison between the Mini Basis and the Nenuphar. Page 8 adds a bit more on amps and choices, specifically the tradeoffs between Bakoon and SIT. https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/cubeaudio3/ |
I'm excited too... now just wait for the trucking company to deliver... painful! Will report back. |
I believe that it’s certainly possible the Schitt and PS Audio BHK amplifiers could provide good sound driving the Nenuphar. I would be ’very surprised’ if they approach the same level of sound quality as the S.I.T.2 driving these speakers. This is precisely the type of amplifier profile Cube Audio designed the Nenuphar to work with. I eagerly look forward to khragon’s amplifier comparison comments post listening sessions. The high DF and low output impedance is exactly what the Nenuphar driver doesn't require or need. This should be an exceptionally insightful exercise.
Charles |
khragon
Wise choice! I am thrilled with the synergy the SIT-3 has with the Nenuphars and the SIT-2 should be even better from what Srajan heard with the SIT-1. I think you'll be shocked at the difference between the SIT-2 and your other amps. You're in for a treat. |
khragon,
Nice ! It will be quite interesting to read how these very different amplifiers sound paired with your Nenuphars. I believe this will be a very enjoyable endeavor.
Charles |
Just as luck would have it.. there was a SIT-2 on sale, so I snatched it up. Now I can compare between 4 ohm output impedance with 0.5 damping factor and >100 damping factor. |
David, The T+A’s reasonable DF level and its negligible NFB no doubt contribute to its perception/reputation of being a very organic sounding transistor amplifier compared to many other solid state brands. Also explains why it pairs so well with your Nenuphars. I guess it comes down to what someone desires as some amplifiers are touted for their DF greater than 1000!!! This is viewed as a + attribute. Charles |
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I forgot to share the damping factor of the amps I mentioned earlier.
Scott Sheaffer Found-Music 2A3 monoblocks:
< 4 Damping Factor
Zero Negative Feedback
T+A PA 3100 HV integrated amplifier:
> 65 Damping Factor
Virtually No Negative Feedback |
Charles, indeed the Nenuphars have remarkable transparency, in fact the most of any speaker I've ever heard, including electrostatics which I owned for many years. It is a totally relaxed, natural kind of detail that doesn't seemed forced, just part of the music. Hard to describe, but it is unique to me. They make comparing cables--or any component I would imagine--very easy.
Cal, thanks for the info on your silver cables. They sound special indeed. I have the Clear Day as mentioned and also some Dueland silver. Both impart a slight ringing to high key piano notes being struck sharply and a little fatigue listening to massed strings--to my ears anyway and in my system with speakers that no doubt still have a ways to break in. Right now I like the copper although I can't even figure out which amp I like better. Maybe this is why some folks have more than one amp?
But boy do these puppies sing.
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In regard to cables. silver vs copper there are so many variables involved as cal alluded to. Either material can sound smooth and warm or cold and sterile. Quality of the wire, geometry, dielectric material chosen, connector selection, on and on. .I've had wonderful results with silver I.C.s and speaker cable in my system over the years and the Ocellia has been superb for me. Without question many could say the same about their copper wire experiences. Charles |
Cal,
You did it the right way by actually listening to various amplifiers in your own audio system. At that point you just have to trust your ears and 'know' what type of sound presentation you prefer. This stuff is so personal and that is what makes it fun and so interesting. Stephen you have two excellent amplifiers for your Nenuphars and listening impressions can and do change over time (particularly if burn-in is a factor). The First Watt S.I.T.3 is a formidable component. I just believe that the Nenuphar has remarkable purity and transparency (without being analytical) and reveals what's fed into it within the system. Charles |
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@stephendunn I did the 14ga tempo electric wire. No marketing, no fancy terminations, just .9999 pure silver in an oversized teflon jacket (so that the wire is mostly just floating in air for the best dialectic rating possible). They charge around $200 per meter for stereo pairs and give you a 30-day trial period.
Basically, no-one's going to give you better raw materials, they're just going to mess with the dialectic (probably for the worse) by changing whatever the wire is embedded in and then change the cable geometry (which will necessitate going from solid core to stranded cables). While I'm sure things can get better, I suspect it's going to cost you $1000s to find out.
I've also experienced success with VH Audio's .99999 solid core silver in cotton for a DIY interconnect, and Ocellia's silver reference interconnects, which I bought on the recommendation of @charles1dad . In all cases, the silver was better than the copper I had in before.
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Just exchanged emails with Grzegorz. He said they use multi conductor copper cables in their speakers and that he prefers copper speaker cables.
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I will be purchasing the Nenuphar 8's or 10's very soon and I am waffling daily on Cube's cabinet or building my own. My question is has anyone heard the Nenuphars in a open baffle design?
If I remember correctly Nelson Pass has used them in a open baffle design and lived them.
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@cal3713 What brand of silver speaker cable did you purchase?
Interesting because with the SIT-3-Nenuphar combo, I prefer the WE 14ga vintage copper cable (similar I would imagine to your Dueland tinned copper). Bunch of improvements over the silver Clear Day Double Shot Guns I had been using.
But I'm just approaching 50 hours of break in and already things have changed since my last post. My preference between the LTA Ultralinear and the SIT-3 has swung more towards the latter. Something has changed, opening that amp up. The previous owner of the SIT-3 told me it had low hours on it and I believe it is breaking in along with the Nenuphars. More on that when I get to the 100 hour or so mark.
I wonder if anyone knows what type of wire runs from the driver to the speaker terminals inside the Nenuphar cabinet?
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For reference...a section from a Wikipedia Article on "Damping Factor" "Typical modern solid-state amplifiers with negative feedback tend to have high damping factors, above 50 and sometimes above 150. High damping factors tend to reduce the extent to which a loudspeaker "rings" (undergoes unwanted short-term oscillation after an impulse of power is applied), but the extent to which damping factors higher than about 20 help in this respect is easily overstated; there will be significant effective internal resistance, as well as some resistance and reactance in cross-over networks an speaker cables.[1][2] Older amplifiers, plus modern triode and even solid-state amplifiers with low negative feedback will tend to have damping factors closer to unity, or even less than 1 (very low damping factor/high output impedance amplifiers approximate current sources).
Large amounts of damping of the loudspeaker is not necessarily better,[3] for example a mere 0.35 dB difference in real-life results between a high (100) and medium (20) Damping Factor.[4] Some engineers, including Nelson Pass claim loudspeakers can sound better with lower electrical damping.[5] [Start Emphasis] A lower damping factor helps to enhance the bass response of the loudspeaker by several decibels (where the impedance of the speaker would be at its maximum), which is useful if only a single speaker is used for the entire audio range. [End Emphasis] Therefore, some amplifiers, in particular vintage amplifiers from the 1950s, ’60s and ’70s, feature controls for varying the damping factor. While such bass "enhancement" may be pleasing to some enthusiasts, it nonetheless represents a distortion of the input signal." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor |
@khragon Both of your amps will work. As Charles, @cal3713 and @toetapaudio mention, it will be interesting which of the two you prefer. If you bring in other amps to audition it should get very interesting. : )
I have driven the Nenuphars with the T+A PA 3100 HV and the sound is very good but not to the level of where it is with the 2A3s. Of course, my personal tastes need to be factored in. Given my system changes since, I need to audition it again and I plan to once a soon to be delivered component is fully run in.
As an example, I believe @toetapaudio is very happy with the Nenuphars and Nenuphar Minis being driven by his Bakoon amp (Dawid had the same amp on hand but doesn’t mention trying it in his review...which may have been a mistake... based on Robert’s findings).
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@nitewulf Yes, I moved to the Nenuphars being driven by Scott Shaeffer's Found-Music 2A3 monoblocks a year ago.
I still have my T+A PA 3100 HV and the Tekton DI SEs. |
@cal3713 Thanks for the offer, unfortunately I’m in S. CA.
I am confident that my current amp will sound wonderful with the Nenuphar... may not be match made in heaven, but at probably heaven on earth none the less.
From Cube Audio website, there’s mention that most solid state amp will match well, so I’m going to go with that for now until I can listen for myself:
" The Nenuphars are dedicated for rooms of 20 - 40 square meters (my living room is 30 sq meters). They are a perfect match for a tube amp with at least 3 Watts per channel. Our personal preference is somewhere around 2A3, Px4, 45 tube-based amps. Nonetheless, most solid-state amps (especially those working in A-class) are also an amazing match for the Nenuphars. When it comes to placement, they can be placed both forward and placed right against the back wall. They like about 5-10 degrees of toe-in. " |
Me too Charles, me too. I would never have believed it if I hadn’t heard it with my own ears. I blame it on the transparency of the f4 paired with a second harmonic distortion character (w almost no 3rd and vanishing amounts of higher order harmonics)...
And, totally agree that the Franks should be just spectacular on the cube audio drivers. Wish I could have afforded to store mine for just such an occasion. As you know, I absolutely adored my pair...
(Incidentally, I just bought some .9999 solid core silver speaker cables based on an old comment of yours that had been rattling around in my head... Just as you said, putting in silver added beautiful, natural refinement to the system with no drawbacks over my previous duelund tinned copper. So happy I remembered reading the suggestion from years ago. I already had Occelia silver interconnects based on your recommendations, but am planning to rewire my amp, pre, and speakers to take it all the way through.) |
cal,
I suspect that the F4s would quite likely work out well with the Nenuphar. I'm somewhat surprised you preferred them over the Atma-sphere M60s and the Pass Labs XA 25 with your speakers. I get that the Frankenstein's 8 watts isn't enough for your PRE. The Frankenstein would very likely be an excellent match with the Nenuphar.
Charles |
Since we’re talking about first watt amplifiers that may provide a good match, I’d just like to mention that the F4 doesn’t get enough attention.
25 watts, zero negative feedback, and no gain stage to modify the sound of your source and preamp, all it does is provide current. A very simple circuit. If you’ve got quality upstream components and enough voltage from your pre/source, it is just fabulous. On my Coincident PREs, it beat a diy sit3, pass labs xa25, atma-sphere m60s, a lyngdorf tdai-3400, and Coincident Frankenstein 300b monos.
In regard to this discussion, it has an output impedance of .2 and a damping factor of 40.
And @khragon, I suspect you’ll still love the speakers with your current amps, even if they’re not the ultimate match. If you happen to be in Colorado, I'd happily bring over the f4 & sit3 for a comparison. |
The Klipsch is a high sensitivity speaker yet may possibly benefit from more power due to crossover design and big woofer control. The crossoverless, very easy to drive load Nenuphar is a different animal. S.I.T. 3 amplifier and Nenuphar is considered to be a splendid pairing. As they say, "horses for coures".
Charles |
@david_ten
did you move away from the Tekton and T+A system? |
The BHK 250 has >150 DF, where as the mono block BHK 300 is >350.
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David both reviewers basically just confirm what the Cube Audio owner/designer so openly shares with everyone willing to listen to him. That extraordinary driver he painstakingly developed simply doesn’t need a NFB amplifier with gratuitous DF levels (low output impedance) to control it as many other speakers do benefit from. Frankly I am surprised that the PS Audio BHK amplifier has such a high DF (>350) that’s a lot of NFB being utilized in that circuit design.
Nevertheless wouldn’t it be something if both of khragon’s amplifiers sound terrific driving the Nenuphar? This speaker fascinates me. David I can easily understand why it sounds superb with your 2A3 mono blocks or the LTA Ultralinear amplifier mentioned earlier above.
Charles |
Thanks, yup I realized non of my amps maybe the "best" match, but will report back on if I’m lucky :)
The suck thing is I sold my SIT3, preferring the BHK250 over it for my Klipsch Cornwall III. So hoping my preferences will win at the end of the day |
Joining the Nenuphar club soon... going to pair them with either PS Audio BHK 250 or Schiit Aegir Monoblocks... hoping one of these will work well with the Cube The BHK 250 has a Damping Factor of >150 (Stereo) >350 (Mono) The Schiit Aegir has a Damping Factor of >100 Both figures are from the respective manufacturer's product specifications. Here is what Dawid Grzyb of HiFi Knights states in his review of the Nenuphar (following 6Moons reviewer Srajan Ebaen's lead): "However, Srajan’s own take on this particular model mapped its short albeit specific list of demands I could work with. Instead of miraculously synergistic plots of unfathomable nature, it involved today’s simple mechanical fondness towards amps of high output impedance, which translates to low damping factor its F10 Neo drivers simply benefit from, that’s the key secret. Zero feedback amp design was additional plus. The man’s investigation led to First Watt SIT-1 as his top pick for Nenuphar, the same manufacturer’s SIT-3, F5 and F7 machines were next in line, then there was Pass Labs XA-30.8, Kinki Studio EX-M1 and LinnenberG Liszt monos were found as the least suitable match. All listed hardware leaves us with respective DF values of 2, 30, 80, 100, 150, 2000 and 500." Moving to his own amps, Dawid states: "I had four amps at my place to tinker with; Bakoon AMP-13R, Kinki Studio EX-M1, FirstWatt F7 and Trilogy 925. The Bakoon and Kinki’s integrated were off the table due to their output impedance far too high, Nelson Pass’ F7 power amp wasn’t ideal but feasible, but the best companion for today’s was my 135wpc 925 integrated. Zero feedback design? Check. High output impedance? Check, 0.5 to be exact, which leads to not quite perfect but still respectable DF value of 16. If this wasn’t the golden ticket, it must’ve been silver at least." Dawid also enjoyed this combination: "Once the Nenuphar’s performance with my Trilogy 925 was mapped, it was time to move to the two-piece set in form of First Watt F7 fronted by Thöress DFP line stage." Bottom line: Zero negative feedback and damping factors (preferably under 100; the closer to 0, generally the better) are noted by both reviewers. @charles1dad is correct in pointing out these areas in the previous post. Full HiFi Knights review here: http://hifiknights.com/reviews/speakers/cube-audio-nenuphar/ |
I’m curious to know how the Schitt Aegir pairs with Nenuphar. On paper it seems an undesirable match given its low output impedance and very low THD figures which suggest generous use of NFB and very likely high damping factor (DF). Cube Audio intentionally designed the Nenuphar driver to be compatible with amplifiers the opposite of this. 6 Moons reviewer Srajan Ebaen confirmed this with his multiple amplifier comparison driving the Nenuphar. The higher the output impedance the better the sound/match. The ’highly controlled (very powerful magnet/motor assembly) driver needs very little DF to function at its optimal performance.
However the proof is in the ’listening’ and there are always exceptions to measurement predicted outcomes. khragon’s listening impressions will be insightful and I look forward to reading them. |
Congratulations khragon. Let us know how you get on.
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@khragon Congrats! Please do report back on your experience... |
Joining the Nenuphar club soon... going to pair them with either PS Audio BHK 250 or Schiit Aegir Monoblocks... hoping one of these will work well with the Cube. |
My first response was an unexpected sense of relief, not just a letting go of my concern over making the right choice, but a relief of years of searching for something I hoped was out there but hadn’t yet found.
... listening to the Nenuphars brought on the same feeling I had when I listened to the Aidas: a holy-cow-kind-of-transportation, a feeling of encountering the real thing, an immersion into where the recording is taking you, like the struggle is over and there’s nothing left but to face the music. Congratulations Stephen! What an outcome. So happy for you! Which begs the question: "Would a 2A3 or 300b amp [offer] even more?" I’m using 2A3 monoblocks with Emission Labs 2A3 Solid Plates. I encourage you to try out both 300B and 2A3 amplifiers and compare against your LTA and First Watt SIT-3 amps. Whichever amp you choose will be a choice among an abundance of riches, so to speak. |
^ thank you. Perhaps one of these days but in the meantime I am smitten with my little omega speakers 😊
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@jmolsberg If you're willing to DIY, the entry price isn't as bad as it seems. Jon @ refined audio was recommending a simple 1 cubic foot sealed box with the 8" driver if you're going to augment with a sub system. Cube audio has a lower model featuring the same basic technology (the Fc8 Driver) for $1500/pair. The new 8" neo drivers from their top end models go for $4700/pair. Still expensive, but reachable for more people...
And @stephendunn Wow, congrats. Sounds like the most positive early impressions you could possibly expect. Great to hear, and makes me even more interested in trying out these drivers. |
Stephen, thanks for keeping us informed. I have not had the opportunity of trying the LTA. Out of the solid state amps I can recommend the Bakoon 13R integrated amp with Cube Audio speakers. Grandinote and Trilogy may also be worth auditioning.
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i have been following this thread because of my love for single driver speakers but mostly just envy. with that said, i tried a handful of amps with my omega loudspeakers and the most satisfying pairing I've found is with LTA. i certainly not have reached into the stratosphere $$$ of SET amps, so i can't can't speak to those, but the LTA is simply magical as noted above. |
I've got about 35 hours on my new Nenuphars, swapping between First Watt SIT-3 and LTA Ultralinear amps. The break-in changes to SQ have been subtle and what you would expect--increase in depth, smoother highs, tighter bass. But the difference between the two amps is not subtle. SIT-3 is more mid-range and mid-bass oriented, slightly darker, earthier. A tunefully dense, very engaging sound. The Ultralinear is like switching to a brighter bulb, recording space more visible, more air and dimension to instruments and voices, better dynamics. I find this openness to be even more seductive than the SIT-3, delivering a heightened sense of you-are-there. Bass is very similar, tuneful, tight and deep with both--interesting since the two amps have very different damping factors (LTA being about 1/5th of the SIT-3). Maybe the distinction in bass will become greater once the speakers have had a chance to break in more. If I had to make the choice right now--more a matter of taste because they both are a great match--I would pick the LTA. To me it just offers more of the magic these speakers make. Which begs the question: "Would a 2A3 or 300b amp often even more?" I've put the word out locally for a loaner...but that's just audiophilia curiosity talking. I'm a totally enthralled camper with the Ultralinear.
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Stephen, Thanks for sharing your initial listening impressions, you obviously had quite an enjoyable and insightful experience. It will only improve from its excellent debut. I have no doubt the Nenuphar sounds fantastic with either of your amplifiers. It’s great to read that you are presented with such realism and ’completeness’. You must be thrilled with your decision to purchase these superb speakers. "a feeling of encountering the real thing" That sums it up beautifully. Charles |
Stephen, I’m pleased to hear that you are enjoying the Cube Nenuphar’s. Thanks for your initial review and I look forward to your further thoughts.
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My apologies for posting such a first blush reaction after just two days of listening to the Nenuphars, but the experience has been so extraordinary that there is an irresistible need to share--although I know there are some here who've already inhaled.
My first response was an unexpected sense of relief, not just a letting go of my concern over making the right choice, but a relief of years of searching for something I hoped was out there but hadn't yet found. Well, I heard it once when I spent a few hours auditioning a pair of Sonus Faber Aidas (the original version) in 2014. But trying to find something that did all that in my price range and able to work in my room with my preference for low watt amps seemed to be futile. Lots of good experiences a long the way to be sure, but not this sense of having arrived, of hearing the music so powerfully that it overwhelmed any considerations of doubt, of wanting more of anything, of something missing. No, I'm not claiming the Nenuphars sound like the Aidas (or even that that's an appropriate comparison). What I'm saying is listening to the Nenuphars brought on the same feeling I had when I listened to the Aidas: a holy-cow-kind-of-transportation, a feeling of encountering the real thing, an immersion into where the recording is taking you, like the struggle is over and there's nothing left but to face the music.
It seems contrary to single out something when I'm really trying to convey a sense of "completeness", something Shindo gear owners (c'est moi) have been known to brag about, but the human voice through the Nenuphars startled me with nuance, color, and pitch I never knew was there. I first twigged to this listening to the channel identification track on the Stereophile set-up CD. This is always one of the first listens with new gear--mainly to get the balance spot on. Through the Nenuphars I heard layers of nuance in the gentleman's voice who says, "The fender bass guitar you are about to hear should appear to come from the left loudspeaker only," that made him sound like someone I had never met standing in my room. My thought was, "if this loudspeaker can bring that level of truth out of a simple speaking voice, what will it do with song, with strings, with..."
Until the last hour of listening, I've been driving the Nenuphars with my LTA Ultralinear. I just put in a First Watt SIT-3. So far I'm still lost in the music and can't tell you which one I'm going to keep.
Ok, I know, calm down. I'll give the speakers a chance to come into their own and then I'll tell you how I really feel.
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Just as a data point for folks. I reached out to Jon at Refined Audio and he noted that he had a *slight* preference for the presentation of the 8" neo driver over the 10" one. And also that it sounds great in a 1 cubic foot
sealed
box. |
Steve, let me know about Sablon I might be able to arrange a trial.
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Steve, I believe at a lower price point the Tekton Perfect SET and the Canadian Coherent Audio speakers may have come close to your wish list. However when many factors are taken into consideration the Nenuphar remains very formidable. I just get the sense this speaker personifies 'naturalness' which is a quality many speakers fail to achieve. Charles |
Thanks for your feedback, David.
Once things have settled in, I'm going to audition the Sablon speaker cables, the Synergistic Research Foundations (a relatively new cable getting some good buzz) and one other, depending on what I can get either through Cable Company or with a decent return policy. I'll research Scott Sheaffer's cables but the Allnics I believe are out of my price range.
And thanks Charles for your encouragement.
Just FYI, these are the boxes I wanted to check during my new speaker search (started a couple of years ago) that lead me to the Nenuphars:
1. high efficiency to work with lower powered SET "type" tube or ss amps
2. relatively small size and not too finicky about room placement
3. will sing at low volume levels
4. suitable for standard near field listening
5. accurate base down to 28HZ +/- 3db
6. holographic sound staging
7. tonally rich but accurate tone without unnatural warmth or roundness
8. priced under $12K
The Nenuphars miss slightly on items 5 and 8, but I was surprised how few speakers came that close, i. e. none. The NSMT Model 100 (reviewed by Terry London for 6Moons) were the closest runner up, but the manufacturer recommended at least 50 watts per channel (despite being 91db efficient) and they had a separately amped bass driver which I've always been wary of seamlessly integrating. I'm sure I missed some other possibilities out there but also sure the Nenuphars will fit the bill!
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@stephendunn It's going to be quite a Tuesday! : )
I concur with Charles.
I'm curious to learn how your Shindo source and pre sound via the Nenuphars, once the speakers are broken in.
Re. your cable question: I am using Scott Sheaffer's analog cables. If you are interested in reaching out to him, let me know.
Synergistic Research for power and digital cables. |
Hi Steve, Congratulations! I believe you have made a wonderful decision in choosing the Nenuphar. Based on what I've been able to learn about this speaker from owners and reviews I feel it sets a new upper tier standard among single driver speakers. Given your current components and power amplifiers, IMHO you will have superb sound quality and beautiful music reproduction. If I were constructing a new audio system today I'd begin with the Nenuphar. Charles |
