Really interesting stuff. My omega 4.5” single drivers - cones w/surrounds weigh in at 1.5 grams. Not sure how that compares to the Nenuphars, but I imagine they are also extremely light. Whenever I audition an amp with a higher dampening, it seems to restrain the lightweight driver.
I just purchased a dht 45 set, which I am super excited to hear with my speakers.
would love to hear the Nenuphars one day. When I listen to quality speakers with crossovers, I can’t get back to those full range efficient speaks quick enough 😉 |
Hi Steve,
Your comments and listening observations are always insightful and interesting. Some people mock the idea of audio component burn-in and say it's merely psychological or just getting use to components/speakers sound character. I believe that burn-in is real. I don't claim that differences are night and day in degree but certainly quite noticeable.
Charles
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Interesting recent posts by all addressing synergy of Nenuphars with various amps. Good to hear reinforcement of the AC Genus magic--it received a rave from AVShowrooms. The LM 845 Premium is also a pairing I would love to hear--although I believe it uses some negative feedback in its circuit, but don't quote me. I recently got to try a Tektron 2A3 which impressed me with it's purity. But I preferred both the SIT-3 and the LTA Ultralinear--more grip and meat on the bone.
In fact, not to drive everyone crazy (anymore than it's driving me crazy) but I've taken another turn with my amp preference. David_ten was right on (no surprise) about speaker break in. Somewhere between 125 hours and 200 hours the SIT-3 began sounding a little thick and slow--I kept thinking it was cables and began swapping things out. Then I put the LTA back in and voila, the veil disappeared and we had dynamics galore plus stronger base (the LTA remember has a much lower damping factor). Obviously the speakers are continuing to open up and reveal everything in their path. Don't get me wrong, the SIT-3 makes great music with these speakers but as you get to know them better--i.e. as they break in--you (or at least I) tend to want more of what they do best which can be so life-like and unrestrained. But of course nothing's absolute. There are those flavors ranging from the 2A3 type low wattage SET's to the relatively burly 845 and SIT-3 type amps with perhaps the classic 300b SET somewhere in the middle. Wish I could try them all!
, |
sakso,
Your comparison of the 9 watt 300b amp and the MBL 300 watt amp is consistent with findings from other posters earlier in this thread. It drives home the unique design/intention of the very special driver used. An ultra controlled driver cone doesn’t need additional damping (DF) control from the driving amplifier. As you and others have demonstrated excess amplifier DF will deteriorate the sound quality of the Nenuphar. Your powerful MBL amp very likely has a relatively high DF (and low output impedance). These traits are no doubt desirable for some (perhaps many) speakers. The Nenuphar is an entirely different approach. Given the superb results of the AC Genus/Nenuphar pairing one could assume the Genus amp has very little (or maybe zero) NFB and thus a low DF and moderately high output impedance. Ideal for the Nenuphar..
Charles |
Hi david_ten,
i will for sure update here my findings.
i m playing with an upgraded elekit 300b integrated now.( gold lion tubes).
sounds much better than my own c51 mbl.
9,5 watt give more and better bass than 300 w!Regards |
@sakso136 Sami, thanks for the wonderfully helpful and informative posts. I learned through your findings from the amps (and tubes) driving your Nenuphars.
I'd love to get an 845 amp in for listen as well.
Let us know your in-depth findings once your AC 845 Genus is in system. What a pairing!!! |
Indeed.
The 2 friends i was referring to,are a close friends,and i m familiar with their systems,tastes( specially the lm 845 one).
All our audiophile group where thrilled when hearing the combo nenuphar+genus.
Honestly,no idea how much is the damping factor and negative feedback on the genus,but,when in action,you feel that those 22 watt act like 300 w.
The transients,the dynamics,the bass,seperation, i can go on,... all there with ease.
Those 22 w are specials,and many people said,it has no problem driving even mid efficiency speakers.
Another friend,owning sb amati,ordered genus at the same time as me,afterhearing it,let see how it goes....
The lm845 friend went and bought elrog845 and elrog300b,replacing his psvane acme 845 and 300b,and he concluded that elrog is the winner.
Sami |
Hi sakso136, Thanks for the update information regarding the Genus amplifier. The 845 is a wonderful tube in my opinion. I've heard the Elrog 845 in a friend's amplifier and it was heavenly. A few years ago I had the Elrog 300b in my amplifier and it was beautiful sounding but unreliable (I had the very early production tubes). I understand that the latest generation Elrogs have solved the reliability issues. Given the Aries Cerat approach your amplifier will have a fabulous over built power supply. Charles
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Hi charles1 dad,
Correct aries cerat is using 813 tube,but recently made a new 845 version using the elrog 845.
The 813 model gonna be discontinued in the future.
The power passes from 25 to 22 watt i think,but sonic improvements are there according to stavros the conceptor. |
Sakso136, I've been very curious about Aries Cerat for several years as I'm very intrigued by their design approach and philosophy. I thought the Genus amp used the 813 DHT as output tube driven by the Siemens so called "super tube". Regardless I imagine this amp paired with the Nenuphar sounds outstanding. I have no doubt.
In a perfect world I'd love to hear your amp compared to David's superb Found Music 2A3 mono blocks. Two very different amplifiers for certain but the Nenuphar bringing out the best of both of them. Charles |
Hi fellas,
I woukd like to reintroduce myself into this very interesting thread( i posted here before,but forgot about the thread). I ve been thru this thread fully,and there are very interesting findings for me like ,upgrading spikes and isolation platforms.
I have the nenuphars since almost a year ,and i can say they are fully break in . I ve tested and heard meticulously the nenuphars with different amplifiers and i will share my thoughts here.
My thoughts and findings are the results of listening in my system and my couple friends systems owning the nenuphars. ( one more friend is going to order soon nenuphar). These 3 friend ; ( one of them is in this thread ,and added the cube audio subs recently),all of them bought the nenuphars after hearing them in my system.
So let me go straight to the point about my findings: these speakers are the most transparent speakers ive heard so far,ive heard quite many. Thru nenuphar i heard the most natural vocal and timbres as well. Very dynamic speakers and they can deliver real freaking bass but but.. with the right amp....more at the end. Details often jumps at you more than you jump on them. Imaging,soundstage,all there ..pinpoint.
If there is a negative aspect,and to be picky,i woukd say bass.but let me be clear,i m talking about bass quantity and not quality. Bass is really precise,clear,feels real ,airy but i feel i lack some oumph,or some chest pressure sometimes......( more below for this negative point wich appeared to be not the nenuphar fault)
I like and share the same what david -ten i think said,you stop caring about speakers and you start working on your upfront,and every small change you do, either cable,fuse,server is easily distinguishable.
I heard them be driven by,mbl c51;gryphon 300,lm845 premium( upraded with elrog845 ,elrog 300b) silver ombilical cable upgrade ,aries cerat genus 845 ( elrog 845).( currently since yesterday elekit 300b with stock tubes of my friend lm845 premium).
During the last year or so,i stopped caring about speakers and focused on server/streamer choice and this gave me the opportunity to listen to my friends nenuphar driven by amps above, the mbl c51 being mine.
To summarize,the lm845 premium is wonderful driving them but the magic came out of the AC genus 845: set design ,25 watt class A. All the other amps drove well the nenuphars and are really listenable choices, but the 2 on top are la creme de la creme,with the genus being mr i do it all with finesse and a smile. The nenuphar are masters in a disappearing act,with genus driving them it s like you are really in front artists playing for you,instruments standing in front of you,crazy depth,crazy sounstage,and bass........amazing.
Yes the nenuphar lack some oumph when placed into the room,but give you very good bass response when placed close to front wall,but i thought loosing depth on the latter,and sticked with them placed into the room.
Before hearing the genus i was thinking augmenting my system with 2 rel subs,but not anymore now after hearing genus.
I ordered the genus845,wich will land beginning may. My current system:
Modem ( ifi 12v ps)—generic copper eth -ubiquiti wifi less router(ifi 12v ps)-copper eth-optimodule( sgp ps)-optical cable—————etherregen switch (keces p8 lps)- vodka AQ————server-(2* keces p8 lps)=======sablon usb—— AC kassandra ref2 dac——- silteck classic 110 mk2 rca ic—mbl c51— audience 24 se sc———nenuphars.
I ll share more thought when i receive my genus. Thks |
I have owned and used both meshplate and solid plate 2a3s from EML. I like both types. I ran a pair per channel in parallel single-ended configuration (Audio Note Kageki amps). Both pairs lasted a decent amount of time, although the meshplate went out of balance earlier (parallel single ended seems to cause tubes to become unmatched earlier than other types of operation).
The solid plate is more like a conventional 2a3--slightly lean sounding, open on top, tight bass and crystal clear and detailed. The meshplate bring something else into that same general description--the soundstage seems more expansive (the sound envelops the listener more) and there is a more dramatic presentation of the music--a heightened sense of presence and dynamics. Whether it is realistic or not, I liked the presentation of the meshplate tube, but, I will also say that this presentation is a bit "phasey" sounding and I can see someone not liking it. |
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David,
Your description of the essential differences between the two EML tubes is on the mark and I’d have little further to add. Both are excellent sounding but the mesh plate tube has to be placed in an amplifiers with friendly /gentle operating points. It’s a more delicate tube. The solid plate version is a very rugged heavy duty workhorse (particularly the XLS version).
Charles |
@wig I did not compare the SP to the MP, so I cannot address directly (in terms of experience within my system).
There are other members who know much more about this than I do. @charles1dad is one of those members. I’d reach out to him as he has compared both directly.
My understanding is that:
- the SP has a much longer lifespan.
- the MP needs proper care in matching / compatibility (electronic reasons) with one’s amp.
- there are more reported "reliability" issues with the MP, however this is mostly due to improper matching.
- the MPs have been described to me as being more "ethereal" "extended" "airy" and generally more "glorious" and "magical" in the mid-range over the SP.
- the SP has been described as more "linear" more "neutral" more "robust/dynamic" more "authoritative" and stronger in low frequency performance (versus the MP).
Both are very good options and one’s system’s needs and preferences should, as always, serve to guide a choice between the two.
I was advised to get both. I haven't procured the Mesh Plate version, as of yet.
[Note: the descriptors used are relative and for purposes of "highlighting" differences] |
@ david_ten
Is there a big difference between the EML Mesh and Solid-Plates? Maybe the type of music one listen to is the driving factor on tube type...
Thanks,
Wig
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@ david_ten
Thanks for the 2A3 comparison and I will be on the look out for a pair on the used market, hopefully something will show up... : )
Wig
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Hi David,
Okay, "you've been there and done that" with regard to comparing the two 2A3s. So much for that😀. The EML is much more expensive and their performance should reflect that. Based on my experience with the EML XLS 300b I can vouch for the following
Excellent sound quality
Exceptional reliability
Very long life span
The EML 2A3 should no different.
Charles |
@charles1dad The EML SPs replaced the JJ 40s Scott’s Found-Music 2A3 amps came with (per the seller’s offering). In other words not stock. Buyer would specify if the amps were to be purchased new.
Not even close, in terms of my preference for the EML SP over the JJ 40s. Having said that, my amps / system sounded very good with the JJs. They are a terrific value. |
@wig I'm with you, as you know! : )
The Nenuphars are 92dB / 6 Ohm (going by memory here) and the 2A3s avail themselves with distinction. Surprising, because on 'paper' they would not be advised. |
That would be an interesting comparison and have heard some talk about the new Psvane Acme Series 2a3 that suppose to be better than everything...but they all sound different in the many typologies that are available.
Wig
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The JJ 2A3 40 has a reputation as a very good sounding tube for reasonable cost. I be quite curious as how it compares to the EML 2A3 solid plate (SP) David currently uses. David if you ever decide to try the JJ I’d be interested in how it fared against your excellent (My opinion) EML in your high resolution system that seems to easily bare all sonic nuance/subtleties. This would informative.
Charles |
@ david_ten
I have experienced the same phenomime you have eluded to in your very informative posts. Four months ago, I never heard of a 2A3 or 45 DHT until an EE friend/designer mentioned that it is the most refined tube one can acquire and that started the ball rolling since he mentioned that 2 Watts would drive my 98 Db+ speakers...
Two months later, Triode Lab 2A3 Monos 4.5 Watts with Hashimoto Output Transformers arrives and the clarity and dimensionality is unmistakable especially if you have efficient speakers of 98 Db+.
None of the KT88 Amps or SET 805 with 300B as drivers I have owned has the refinement, separation, depth, sound staging, transparency or the flow of sound that those DHT provides, it’s just magical and I believe the sound quality is related to its simplistic design.
I also have many friend owning 2A3 Amps and have a collection of NOS Tubes and the verdict is the JJ 2A3-40 and that’s what I’m using with some Shuguang 2A3C as back-ups which are quite good as well.
Wig
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@in_shore I'll send a PM now. |
Just to confirm that you can add a sub at a later date to either 8 or 10 inch Nenuphar’s if you so wish. |
David 10 I’m going to be listening to the Nenuphar 8s in a couple weeks when we get back home from sunny Florida , really look forward to that listening event , I’ve been really stumped what I want speaker wise.
We recently down sized our home and gone is my listening room above the garage along with my Magnapan speakers and Rolland amps , I now have a much smaller room where such a speaker like Cube Audio Nenuphar could possibly perform well in .
David I just noticed you’ve done some radical changes to your system I’d like to ask about your Synergistic conditioner and power cords replacing the P.I. Audio Uber and Triode wires , you can pm me if you like , thanks .
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@charles1dad Charles, I have not brought the T+A PA 3100 HV Integrated Amp back in system since the changes to the power supply / conditioner, power cables, etc.
I need to do so, especially since the T+A SDV 3100 HV is well on it's way to be 'broken in' (over 200 hours of playtime on it) AND the other changes are settled (for the most).
I'll make a point to do so and report back. |
Hi David, Thanks for your insight into recent listening experiences. Does your T+A 300 watt amplifier offer any additional advantage specifically related to large scale symphonic/choral music at high volume levels? It's clear (to me) you prefer the 2A3 Found Music amplifiers under virtually all other listening conditions (Genre and typical volume level). Charles |
I liked the Nenuphar playing at low volume. I liked it less when the volume was cranked up. The Nenuphar speakers, in my system and room, sound wonderful when played loud. I attribute the ability to play them even louder than in the past to improvements I made on the power and power cable side of my system. Treating my room will push these already high volume levels, higher. My reference being: long listening sessions, at higher volumes than normal for me, without the problems that cut a session short. I fully realize the 2A3 amps I'm using have limits in this respect. Having said that, those limits now are far higher (e.g. in volume without distortion / fatigue) than I expected and understand (technically). I've come to learn that the types of music and how I go about listening to that music are 'tells' about my system and it's performance and parameters. One I've noticed recently is that I'm listening to large scale classical music with much greater frequency than I have in the past. This clearly communicates something (important) to me. We all have different references and requirements. It's what makes this hobby so very interesting to me. What follows isn't dictate...it's merely an illustration of my comfort level in what my needs are: Based my experience with Scott Sheaffer's Found-Music 2A3 amps, I (personally, for myself) do not see a need for more power than what a quality 300B SET amp offers to drive the Nenuphars. |
Hard to imagine there is more to come from these wonderful speakers as I reach the 100 hour mark. Stephen, I found there was "more to come..." : ) Let us know what you find. |
Agree, and this is why people must know their own listening expectations/ demands and intentions when attempting to pair amplifiers and speakers. This is truly an individual endeavor. Charles |
I am not surprised that people report good results with SET 2a3 and 300b amps. I generally do find that most people overestimate the amount of power they really need. For the vast majority of time, one listens at levels where a watt or two is enough.
But, there will be some limitations with these types of amps and speakers in this efficiency range. With really demanding music, such as large-scale choral music, at crescendi, one will hear the effects of compression--the music stops getting louder and it becomes more muddled sounding. I hear this to some extent when using my 5.5 watt amps on 99 db/w efficient speakers. It is not a big deal to me; I don't attempt to listen to Mahler's 8th at "realistic" volume, but it may be a bigger deal to someone else. This is something everyone has to judge for themselves. |
Stephen, David uses 3.5 watt 2A3 SET mono blocks with superb results and preferred them in direct comparison to an excellent quality el 34 PP amp and his excellent T+A SS amps. I believe you’d be very happy with a good quality 300b SET (8 watts usually) driving your Nenuphars.. At European audio shows Cube Audio often demonstrates with 2A3 and 45 SETs to reveal how easily driven the Nenuphar is. Charles |
At 92 db/w efficiency, whether or not something like a single-ended 300b or other small triode will work depends a lot on how loud you like to play the system. With most single driver systems, you have the BIG advantage of the speakers sounding really good--lively and engaging--at quite low volume. I liked the Nenuphar playing at low volume. I liked it less when the volume was cranked up. That is not a big deal to me, because I like low-volume listening, but, it is something to consider when looking at this kind of speaker and the right amp to work with the speaker. |
david_tenThanks, David, I missed your post in the thread. Hard to imagine there is more to come from these wonderful speakers as I reach the 100 hour mark. If anyone has heard of or experienced the Nenuphars being driven by 300bs, please let me know. Curious about that tube's synergy. |
At what point did you feel the speakers were fully broken in? Stephen, copied below [from 10-09-2019 / Page 2 of this thread] are my thoughts on break in for the Nenuphars. Both Richard ( @toetapaudio ) and Jon Ver Halen may, based on their personal exposure and client feedback, find differently. Here is a response I sent to @toetapaudio on my personal experience with break in:
"....Cube, if memory serves me, felt a few hours of runtime would be sufficient.
Jon Ver Halen, the US importer, put it at 40 hours or so. Based on my experience, I peg it at about 150 hours before the Nenuphar start coming into their own. They definitely started sounding better after Jon’s recommendation of 40+ hours. So take 40 as a minimum, minimum...with 150 as my personally recommended minimum. For ’full’ break-in around 500 hours for musical beauty, wonder and engagement. An industry person I respect and who has significant experience tuning analog gear, felt 1000 hours would be needed. I realize ’hours’ of burn-in are a hot topic with folks falling on either side of the divide. I took his feedback and pushed for that 1K mark, after which I consider break in to be complete. However, If I were advising, I’d stick to the 500 hours with folks generally being happy with the results post 200 hours." |
I have about 100 hours now on my Nenuphars and just recently noticed another notch of improvement in the high register.
david_ten, toetapaudio
At what point did you feel the speakers were fully broken in?
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@rixthetrick YES! Grandinote's Massimiliano Magri’s Magnetosolid Tech based electronics and his speakers are really, really good. |
We can supply Nenuphar drive units World wide and are looking into cabinet designs customers can use. We can also supply Townsend Podiums to use with the Nenuphar’s. |
@david_ten I heard a Grandinote pre DAC /amplifier combo at the workshop and I was thoroughly impressed. One of the best set of front end electronics I have heard. Mind you, I've heard the Terminator DAC in a shootout - it's a good bit of gear too.
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@khragon Likewise, looking forward to what you end up preferring re. placement etc. in your setup. |
@stephendunn Thanks so much for the detail you shared around your experience and insights with the Townshend Seismic Platforms. I still need to work on optimizing placement / positioning / toe-in / tilt etc.
Your results and findings are very encouraging. |
@toetapaudio I hear you on spikes, generally speaking. For example, I am using Ingress Audio Engineering's RollerBlocks throughout my system. I will note that moving from the stock spikes and rubber bumpers of the Nenuphar to Eden Sound brass spikes (front) and brass hemi-spikes/spheres (rear) made an easily identifiable and immediate positive difference. @khragon I recommend trying the above since (from your photo) it appears you are using the stock spikes / rubber bumpers. The Eden Sound solution, or equivalent, is a low cost change that (in my case) paid positive dividends. An easy first move to squeeze more performance out of the Nenuphars. [Note: I'm using the Eden Sound spikes 'solution' on Townshend Audio Seismic Platforms] ------------ It’s not obvious but the footprint of the iso device must be large to obtain the required lateral stability for objects with high center of gravity. Sure, you could make the springs stiffer with a smaller footprint but then the device wouldn’t isolate as well. Thanks @geoffkait +1 and noted. |
I did not mention the review with any intent to draw you away from your current amp, just for general info @douglas_schroeder I'm open to learning and understood your post as such. Thank you again. My 2A3 amps are a delightful pairing for the Nenuphars (based on my needs / preferences). That doesn't mean I am not open to experimenting with other options, including higher output SET amps. |
@david_ten
In the photo I did have them with very little toe in, was trying them out. Now I had them more toe in.. still playing around with placement. |
Steven, the LTA and SIT 3 sound like excellent choices. I’m hoping I might be able to try both at some point to compare with the Bakoon 13R. For me the fact that the Bakoon will have a matching dac enabling JET SATRI through BNC is important to me. Apart from the sound the minimal concept of their designs very much appeals. |
Good question larryi, but unfortunately I haven’t been able to audition the versions with active subwoofers, that was one of the reasons for going to Munich but unfortunately that event has been cancelled. I have to say I don’t feel that I’m missing out on bass, with either the 8 inch or 10 inch Nenuphar’s.
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Has anyone here heard the Cube Audio speakers with the active subwoofers? I am wondering what is gained and what is lost by that approach. I am not a bass freak myself, and I was not particularly concerned with the bass I heard from the Nenuphar. But, from my experience with other full range drivers, adding other drivers changes the sound in so many different ways.
The active subwoofer would also substantially reduce the power requirements for powering the full-range driver. That would bring into play many of the ultra low-powered tube amps I like. |
While I'm at it, I'm also going to post the results of the amplifier shoot out between the LTA Ultralinear and the PL SIT-3. Yes, I know, the Nenuphars are probably not fully broken in, but at around 75 hours I think the changes from here will be subtle and not alter the difference I hear between these two wonderful amplifiers.
Both these amps display terrific synergy with the Nenuphars. The difference being a matter of taste. To borrow from Srajan when he compared the Bakoon to the SIT-3 on page 6 of his Cube Audio Mini Basis review, the LTA was "a Nordic summer day" and the SIT-3 a "Tuscan afternoon, early fall." Which translates to many things having to do with detail, mid range, base and tempo. The LTA rendering detail more prominently, with a leaner mid range, a slightly more refined base and PRAT that was quicker, more forward. It made me sit up and take wonder. With the SIT-3 detail was more in balance, the mid range richer, the base deeper and rounder, and PRAT, well this is where it gets tricky, because there was something that made the SIT-3 more engaging, that pulled me into the music more, sometimes to a very emotional degree. My suspicion is it had something to do with PRAT, although none of those ingredients really called attention to themselves. Maybe it was greater second harmonic distortion? Bottom line: it would be nice to keep both amps to enjoy Nordic summer days and early fall Tuscan days as the mood struck me. But that seems a little excessive. I'm very happy here in Italy where "The light is softer. Edges are gentler. The breeze is warmer. Lunches are far longer."
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david_ten
How are your speakers setup on the Townshend platforms? Stock spikes / similar to @toetapaudio ’s OR some other arrangement? Did setting the speakers on the platforms ’force’ changes in positioning / placement? Thank you.
David--I am using the stock spikes in front and rubber feet in back. I centered them on the Townshend Podiums then leveled them on the side to side access by adjusting the Podiums’ feet. I used the placement I had found optimal before, about 36" from side walls and 20" from front wall (measured from back of speaker). I asked Jon what impact it might make to raise the drivers 1 3/8" off the floor using the Podiums. He said I might need to angle the speakers slightly more towards the listening chair, but I haven’t found the need to do this. (BTW I have found the angle of the speakers toward the listening chair to be the most critical set up adjustment. Very slight adjustments will impact tonality: the more toed in the more emphasis on higher frequencies. Since my listening is fairly near field (8’ from speakers 7’ apart) I don’t find the toe in impacts the soundstage as much as tonality. Even with the speakers facing straight ahead I get a strong, well defined central image.
I have noticed using other speakers on the Townshend Podiums that I could hear no difference between placing the speakers without feet on the podiums (Townshend’s recommendation and obviously not possible with the Nenuphars given it’s bottom port and back slant) and using feet, whether they be spikes or cones. But that may vary by speaker.
An interesting early impression of the Nenuphars on the Podiums makes them sound more forgiving of recording technique, although there is no doubt they are also more resolving. Kind of a conundrum. The entire presentation is just more relaxed and open. |
