@roxy54 

Thanks, but no problem. 

Obscenity?

Sniff.

Everyone?

The saying that everyone knows is the one that I quoted.

@juanmanuelfangioii 

The saying that everyone knows is the one that I quoted, not the one you cited. And if you use your Mandarin obscenity again, it will be removed again, like I had it removed last time.

@roxy54 wrong again:

Yep the H word in Mandarin.

Description: When a person attempts to justify an action against another person because the other person did take or would take the same action against him or her.

Logical Forms:

Person 1 did X to person 2.

Therefore, person 2 is justified to do X to person 1.

Person 1 believes that person 2 would do X to person 1.

Therefore, person 1 is justified to do X to person 2.

Example #1:

Jimmy stole Tommy’s lunch in the past.

Therefore, it is acceptable for Tommy to steal Jimmy’s lunch today.

Explanation: It was wrong for Jimmy to steal Tommy’s lunch, but it is not good reasoning to claim that Tommy stealing Jimmy’s lunch would make the situation right.  What we are left with, are two kids who steal, with no better understanding of why they shouldn’t steal.

Example #2:

It looks like the waiter forgot to charge us for the expensive bottle of champagne.  Let’s just leave -- after all, if he overcharged us, I doubt he would chase us down to give us our money back that we overpaid.

Explanation: Here the reasoning is a bit more fallacious because we are making an assumption of what the waiter might do.  Even if that were true, two ripoffs don’t make the situation right.

Exception: There can be much debate on what exactly is “justified retribution” or “justified preventative measures”.

Fun Fact: Three lefts make a right.

+1 hdm Thanks for the thorough report comparing the Odin Gold to the real Valhallas. FWIW, I read the review of the real Odin to the Valhallas, to the Odin 2s. The reviewer preferred the Odin 2s

Initially, I stuck my toe in the unknown waters of NEARdost Odin 2s, eventually completely redoing all my cables, except from the 20amp dedicated outlet to my CorePower 1800, for which I bought a <$50 PC from Amazon on a recommendation from a local 'phile. It was so good I bought a second one for my Audio Alchemy DDP-1s PS 5 outboard LPS. I then tried a Gold PC for my Voyager 350 GaN amp, then a second one for my DDP-1 Dac/Pre. Liking what they did (warmer and yet more open) I bought a Odin Gold XLR, which I just got yesterday. Warming the system up now to compare/replace the Odin 2s 

Regarding the ethical question, if I buy something which is a copy and know it is a copy is that a problem? If a local artist paints a copy of Vincent van Goghs starry night and I like it and pay him $500 for it has anything unethical occurred? I don’t think there is an ethical question here since everyone in this discussion knows these cables are copies. The only problem occurs is it people buy them and attempt to resell them as the genuine article, which I agree is disturbing. 

@ghdprentice 

I do understand your thinking on this. I was too harsh.

@roxy54

Absolutely, yes, I did buy some. That was not a good thing. I thought about it. Realizing that if I never resell them that harm is somewhat mitigated. I will not be recommending them to anyone or buy any more. Experiment complete.

I have spent over thirty years working all over the world in global manufacturing and logistics. The purchase also provides food for a few poor Chinese, so, there is that. I have been in factories all over China. Most produce good and not stolen products. Most have benefited them and us. Like all things there are exceptions. Because China does not have patent laws more goes on there than in most other countries. Much happens in off beat factories as are producing these clones. 

As I stated earlier in the thread, I purchased a set of Chinese "Neardost" Odin Gold IC's (RCA) recently and then purchased an additional 5 pairs of them as they significantly bettered a much pricier IC, which I simply sold off (two pairs) recently for about 3X  more than I paid for the 6 pairs of Ali Express cables. 

Did an interesting comparison at a friend's place yesterday; his system is considerably more "upmarket" than mine is, consisting of a Clearaudio Innovation table & Charisma cartridge, an Allnic phono preamp (forget the model), an Allnic L-10000 preamp, Bryston 14B Cubed power amp and B&W 802D3 speakers. 

This was not an apples to apples comparison (ie. Chinese Odin Gold vs. the real thing) but we did compare the Chinese Odin Gold in his system to genuine (older) Nordost Valhalla V1. I took two sets of the Chinese OG over and they simply replaced the two sets of Valhalla running between his phono preamp/preamp and preamp/power amp. 

For music, we listened to a copy of Lloyd Cole's Antidepressant as well as an "Audiophile Series" half speed master of Supertramp's Crime of the Century. 

This was not a blind test, but sighted, and there were 4 of us there including me. 

The 3 others preferred the Valhalla but personally, I did not like it as much as the Chinese knockoff Golds. The others found the Valhalla to be more detailed (which I can understand) and also felt that it sounded fuller, which I could not understand and definitely disagreed with. 

The strengths of the Valhalla were in high frequency extension (by comparison the Gold knockoffs sounded slightly rolled off) and they sounded tighter and more controlled in the bass. But they also sounded considerably thinner (to me only, which I thought was a bit strange) and that thinness contributed to what I perceived to be a "sense" of more detail that you often get with a cable that does sound slightly thinner with what I think is an emphasis on the upper midrange. 

By comparison, the Gold knockoffs sounded to me quite a bit fuller/richer in the midrange (some might possibly find them too "bloomy" there but I certainly did not) but bass was not quite as tight and there was slightly less treble energy. They had a slightly more "mid hall" presentation than the Valhallas as far as I was concerned.

One of the others commented, for example, that he felt that a sax solo sounded more detailed on the Valhallas and I would agree that leading and trailing edge of notes certainly had more apparent detail, but at the expense of body and richness of sound from the sax itself. 

Similarly, the Valhalla also seemed to "highlight" vocals a bit more, isolating them in space but also sounding slightly sibilant to me. 

In the end, none of us really know what the master tape sounds like so it comes down to subjective preferences in many cases. To some, differences are more pronounced to others and those subjective preferences come into play. 

So differences were heard and preferences expressed. The one comment from the group that was unanimously agreed upon was that the price differential made absolutely no sense: $100 Cnd. for the two sets of Gold knockoffs vs. the new retail price of two sets of the Valhalla at the time (I believe my friend purchased used) of around $8000 Cnd. And that the overall presentation of both interconnects was much closer than would be expected at the price points. 

Thinking afterward, I also thought that if my friends preferred the Valhallas overall presentation that the straight knockoff Odin might be preferable to them as opposed to the Gold, which is supposed to have a warmer tonal balance and different presentation vs. the non-Gold knockoffs (and why I ordered the Golds in the first place). 

@tksteingraber I echo your experience with the 12TC speaker cables, except that I bought them terminated from the "Audio Accessary" store (that typo kills me). Beat my Atlas Equator cables by a significant margin, with better bass extension and resolution. Another one of my recommended finds on AE. 

Ok back to the regularly scheduled program…for those of you who might care how these Chinese cables sound my experience is that the Odin 2 silver RCA interconnects copy sound very good.   I compared them to WBC Mogami and Morrow MA3 and the Odin sounded much better than either of them.  So much more detail, improved bass and more layered defined soundstage.  Best I have heard.

Additionally, I compared the copy Kimber Kable 12TC DIY speaker cable with 100% copper spades to DH Labs  Silver Sonic Q-10 Signature cables and the 12TC sounded much better.  Much more detail, better defined bass and just a much fuller richer sound.  
These Chinese cables are obviously not originals and not giant killers. They are for those hobbyists that can’t afford or justify spending big bucks and are looking for “Value” = great sound for an excellent price.  Ali provides just that in my mind. I just don’t like the labeling of them as brand names.

@ghdprentice 

And yet, you did it...

@ghdprentice Nice post and yes it is of questionable ethics to buy known counterfeit products. 
 

The problem is not the Chinaman.

I become less and less comfortable with buying these things. I bought a couple just to be sure when I said they don’t sound like the real thing, I really tried them. Ok, mission accomplished. I had real Nordost Odin 2 in my system and the fake ones do not sound anything like them.

But there is a lot more important point here. Buying stuff that you know is fake is ethically wrong. The problem is there is a large aftermarket for cables. I have bought Transparent and other cables (as test cables). Buy flooding the world with fake branded cables they fuel the used market. I will destroy the fake Nordost that I bought, but will everyone? Will many folks decide to sell them in the used market? This is a real problem. 
 

So, it is really best no one buys these things. 

@jerryg123 

I couldn't resist it Jerry. It was such a comical mistake.

You got the point.  

Húndàn

So you ask him to go away and then you egg Juan on.

@juanmanuelfangioii 

When you quote a saying, try to get it right next time. The saying goes:

Two wrongs don't make a right.

That's the opposite of what you said.

@juanmanuelfangioii 

@spenav Okay sure. 

@juanmanuelfangioii 

You need to cool off. You have been calling people all sorts of names from stupid to unethical to un-american. You have made your position and points known. You have posted more on this thread than anyone. Don’t you think it’s time for you to cease and desist? Enough is enough. 

That is a funny one. 

It is a public forum and do not care if you were talking to me. Sound familiar?

No I can tell a lot just by the thread you started. 

Now go home Chairman Xi is waiting. 

Small amount is counterfeit on Aliexpress 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

@juanmanuelfangioii

To begin, I wasn’t talking to you Juan, but that’s fine, I’ll answer your questions as I have before.

I love America, and I have bought many American made audio products, and will continue to do so. A small number of the products on Aliexpress are counterfeit, and actually, after buying two of those, my favorites are actually other brands sold there that are not counterfeit at all.

You know nothing about my ethics or integrity, but I’d like to know about yours. As far as you not buying used cable, nobody asked you to. I got it, you’re a spotless saint. Go home.

@nasaman had a moment of weakness and regrets his actions. Why are you such a strong supporter of the pirates as others have called them?

Why do you hate America?

Why do you hate American small business and ingenuity?

Why do you have such low ethics and integrity?

As it was posted earlier "But Mom everyone is doing it!" 

The old two wrongs make a right well it is a fallacy and illogical.   

I know one thing, I would never buy a used cable from any the folks in this thread. 

@nasaman

Pretty disingenuous John. Would you feel the same if the cords sounded great to you? And then you mention Amazon. I buy a lot of stuff from them too, but how do you think that is going to help America? That stuff is coming from China too. If you felt that strongly about trade with China, why did you buy them to begin with?

@jetter  In talks with the vendor, he refered to "thier factory".  I assumed he is talking about a Chinese factory.  I could be wrong but I think he would have highlighted the fact the wire comes from Japan is that were the case?

@bigtwin Looking over the link you provided, there is a lot of description, and it might be there, but I did not see anything that actually says the wire is made in China and none of the pictures of the wire shows the "Made in xxx" country.

I wonder if the Chinese vendors are buying cable made in Japan at volume discounts and then selling it for a markup on AliExpress.  

Incidentally, I would prefer cable made in Japan as are my Canare.

Aside from the cables that are cearly counterfeit, I think the issue rasied around the more expensive, made in China cables like SKW, is an interesting discussion.  I have no problem buying high quality at lower prices.  Here is an example of power cord I'm considering:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003591571982.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000060.3.642f3652vfz06t&amp;gps-id=pcDetailBottomMoreThisSeller&amp;scm=1007.13339.291025.0&amp;scm_id=1007.13339.291025.0&amp;scm-url=1007.13339.291025.0&amp;pvid=f3ca4259-219d-403b-b536-61310791ad5c&amp;_t=gps-id:pcDetailBottomMoreThisSeller,scm-url:1007.13339.291025.0,pvid:f3ca4259-219d-403b-b536-61310791ad5c,tpp_buckets:668%232846%238114%231999&amp;pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000026408994339%22%2C%22sceneId%22%3A%223339%22%7D&amp;pdp_npi=2%40dis%21CAD%2159.32%2138.55%21%21%21%21%21%402103222016672433571074029ed847%2112000026408994339%21rec

The specs are impressive.  OCC Copper.  15 strands per run equals 10 AWG.  In talks with the vendor he assures the specs are all valid.  If you Google OCC Copper you will find there are 20+ factories in China maufacturing wire using the OCC casting process.  And at $38 CDN per meter this is a great deal.

So why am I so hesitant to believe this product is what it claims?  I have no doubts when a Canadian or US vendor tells me they use OCC Copper and charge me 5 times as much.  I hate to admit this but I think it's the inherent racist views we have learned to hold againd all things Chinese.  I try not to be that person but I can't find any other explanation.  It's a sad comment on the world today, or at the very least, on the person the world today is making me.  

Not right on point for this thread, but several years ago I bought a couple of the WU Audio power cords off Amazon for something like $40 or $50 each.  I hadn’t been using them in a long while and a couple of days ago decided to attach them to my subwoofers.

One of the cloth exterior coverings was moving about (cosmetic only)and noticed on the label of the actual wire insulation was "Furukawa Electric Pure Copper Multiconductor - Made in Japan".

FYI,

AliExpress now selling fake Shunyata Research Cobra cords.

Don’t support the pirates, guys.

I bought total of 7 fake Odin lines and I’m regretting it now.

I feel like shooting at my own foot.

I know your curiosity is high, the saving is big but the quality is just as what you pay for… CHEAP. They are thieves and their Government allows them to harm America economy and jobs.

We are in recessions. We need to build our shitty land strong again starting from here for us, music and high end audio lovers.

Amazon now selling $35 power cords just as good in build quality and performance.

I regret buying fake Odin from AliExpress.

Respectfully,

John

But mom everybody was doing it.

@thyname 

Thanks for the link.

@clearthinker 

It's way too late for them to tow the line. They make the majority of things that we buy except cars of course. We should never have let that happen, but those decisions were made 30-40 years ago. Might as well enjoy the few good things to come from it. 

@clearthinker you are right but the folks here would rather support these pirates. 

Don't waste time filing patents trademarks and copyright to protect yourself against the Chinese.  They don't give a s**t.  OK, go and sue them in their bent Chinese courts.

Don't be daft.  When you're operating in cowboy country, expect to get shot up.

The only way out is to ostracise them from Western markets.  Then they will learn they have to toe the line and not live by cheating.  Or else leave us alone and just operate in their red land.

thyname

Without seeming like I am trying to pump you for information on the Ali version, if you would care to say - Is the Ali version as stiff/unmanageable as the real thing?

Thanks.

@jetter yes, that is definitely happening. And it’s been happening. I know for a fact. It’s very sad. There are certainly people like that around. It’s disgusting 

I can't help but wonder if any or how many as the case may be of these knock offs have been sold to unsuspecting persons by unscrupulous persons who bought them from Ali?  Talking about before this thread brought it to our attention.

I do. And I do have an original (guaranteed original, bought from my local dealer). I do however feel pretty bad saying anything about the Ali counterfeit cables. All I can say, buy one, try it for yourself. They typically arrive in 2-3 weeks if you are in US. The challenge is YOU don’t have an authentic Dragon. How would you compare? 

thanks @thyname yes, that's the one I was suspecting as well. By any chance do you have one for yourself and compared to the original ? I am trying to find out if its worth paying the significant premium if the fake Odins can be bought for lot less.

@roxy54 : copying links from Ali Baba app for iPad is a PITA. Let me try again: https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2255800138198804.html?spm=a2g0o.store_pc_allProduct.8148356.3.7d8f69a3IkRcyk&amp;pdp_npi=2%40dis%21USD%21US%20%24360.00%21US%20%24331.20%21%21%21%21%21%402101d68d16676805043707670e6ce9%2112000017998477853%21sh&amp;gatewayAdapt=glo2usa&amp;_randl_shipto=US 

@thyname 

that isn't a link to the cord you were mentioning. Could you post that link?

@debjit_g :

The previous version of the Dragon had the three legs of the conductors braided, meaning like “twisted” between each other. The current version of the Dragon has straight conductors. Like this: 
https://a.aliexpress.com/_msr1GSo

Now, if you really want to know what the China copycats are capable of coming up with, ethically or not that’s a whole lot another issue, give the fake Dragon power cords (Audioquest) a shot. They will cost you about $400 to $500 (get the “current generation” not braided Dragons), so yes, there is some real money involved.

@thyname have you tried one ? What do you mean by “current generation” not braided Dragons ? I am curious to get one, so wondering if you have a link to the ones you are talking about.

@thyname you nailed it. Everyone is looking for the $40.00 GIANT KILLER!!!!

Quite comical.

trying the fake Ali Baba cables at $40 a pop will not do you much. Let’s be real. Now, if you really want to know what the China copycats are capable of coming up with, ethically or not that’s a whole lot another issue, give the fake Dragon power cords (Audioquest) a shot. They will cost you about $400 to $500 (get the “current generation” not braided Dragons), so yes, there is some real money involved. You will see. 

There are times when you need to prove you had a real shoot out. I just wanted to confirm to others on this message board that I did compare the Valhalla 1 speaker cable with the Chinese origin Valhalla 2 hifi speaker cable horn cable. The Valhalla 2 was not burnt in and still better. I have an iso transformer feeding my electrostats and front end, so it is very responsive to changes. Since I posted, the speaker wire improved dramatically.

https://tinyurl.com/dn97wr96

Let’s cut to the chase here: trying the fake Ali Baba cables at $40 a pop will not do you much. Let’s be real. Now, if you really want to know what the China copycats are capable of coming up with, ethically or not that’s a whole lot another issue, give the fake Dragon power cords (Audioquest) a shot. They will cost you about $400 to $500 (get the “current generation” not braided Dragons), so yes, there is some real money involved. You will see.