Constant noisy tubes maybe go solid state?

@dhite71

Does a faint white noise degrade the sound somehow particularly if its barely audible without putting your ear to the driver? 

I have had tube phono preamps, main preamps and main amps for about 3 years totaling 9 models.  I progressively have had a quieter system with simply faint white noise audible from the speakers in the earlier models.  As I have reached my current higher end models, the noise is gone.  This was one of the benefits mentioned for my ARC gear both from individuals and official reviews.  

When I had some output tubes going out I also had a little of this similar noise increasing.  It was a bit inconsistent during this event where I would hear a faint whoosh sound.

It sounds like an odd run of bad luck you have had and makes me wonder if there is an issue with your gear.  Have you ever considered having the tubes tested?  I live in Memphis and The Tube Depot normally tests preamp tubes for $2 each.  I actually talked to them yesterday and their tester can even estimate remaining life.  They have stopped receiving tubes due to the damn virus, but hope to resume soon.  Whether them or any of the other companies out there...it would be good info to have.

Tube sound is glorious....don't give up!!

Tubes are funky devices and as soon as they are powered up they start wearing themselves out as mentioned by a well known audio company.
I don't use tubes right now because the new tube stuff sounds too much like good solid state and I sure wouldn't use tubes in a surround sound application.
If you do use tubes the most important thing is who you source them from but I still look forward to buying a tube preamp again for the use in my two channel stereo.

I assume the tubes have not always had issues?  Did anything change in your environment lately?  Thuderstorm?  Electrical work?  High or low voltage?  AC socket grounding issues.
Many things can cause this.  Take your preamp to a different room, or better yet to your dealer, hook it up and see if it is a hardware problem or enivormental. Process of elimination will nail it down.

In my experience, current-production tubes have been far, far more reliable than old-stock (new or not). This has primarily been with Russian Tung-sol and Gold Lion tubes, which are both the sort of mid-to-upper range of current production. I don't expect that the lower cost JJ, EH, or basic Shuguang would necessarily be as consistent. Having gone through hundreds of tubes in untested batches, it is exceedingly rare that these new tubes will exhibit electrical noise and even more rare for them to fail. 

Also having gone through hundreds of old-stock tubes in tested and untested lots, I can say that it is much more effort to find tubes that meet my standards for low noise and microphonics, especially if I'm looking for a pair. There is also a higher likelihood of a tube testing well and developing noise after it's been shipped. Having the tubes pre-tested by the vendor sometimes helps reduce the instances of noise, but sometimes it doesn't make a difference. My testing procedure is: external burn-in period > Maximatcher testing > in circuit listening test #1 > in circuit burn-in period > in circuit listening test #2.

While certain old-stock tubes can certainly sound great and often sound better than new-production, I find that Gold Lion and other brands sound excellent and allow much less worry about noise, so I'm on the same page as millercarbon . 

When you're buying a new amp, would you prefer the manufacturer use current production tubes as stock, significantly reducing the chance of tube noise in your new purchase, or would you prefer the manufacturer try to install old-stock tubes, though it's more likely that you'll have to deal with a noise issue?

i am not a home theater guy, but if i were, i would agree that HT should be run with solid state gear to deliver the clarity oomph and reliability/low maintenance over long stretches - tube equipment makes a lot less sense here, as to me tubes mainly provide better tonal on acoustic instruments and voices, and also imaging - much more valued in 2 channel music reproduction...

Thanks aj523.  I have an ARCAM AVR550 for my home theater and use this also for music.  I have not installed the two rear surround system speakers so all of my sound is coming from the front speakers.  Actually, the sound is really good  I have a pair of Paradym 85F towers, but added a pair of REL S2 SHO subwoofers.  These really helped the sound stage and took some weight off the towers to clear up the mids and highs.  I dialed in the volume of the RELs to 40% so they would not sound too bassy and they seem to blend well.  I would like to have a dedicated two channel system after adding the rear surround speakers, but do not know how to do this from one pair of speakers and subs without having to reconnect the speaker wires each time I want to listen to  2 channel.  I did like the Parasound integrated amp.  The ARCAM AVR850 has the G technology which provides the first 50 watts in pure A quality amplification.  However, this costs $6,000.  Everything in this hobby costs a lot.  I also added a BlueSound Node 2i and the high res and MQA really adds to the quality.  I was talked into adding a ProJect S2 DAC and I preferred the Node 2i played by itself.  The DAC made things sound too thin.  I also notice better sound quality/sound stage when playing MQA.  Might be smoke and mirrors because no one in this group likes MQA.

Thanks again for your response.  Everyone in this group is so helpful and knowledgeable.  Just wish I had more money.

@yogiboy  I reached out to Mike to verify I can run a lower power tube. Hopefully gear back soon.

@larry5729
Here ya go!
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/articles/could-an-old-school-tube-amp-make-the-music-you-love-sound...

@larry5729 
Personally I prefer solid state powering my dedicated home theater.  And for music much prefer the tonality and nuances to an all tube analog front end.  

@larry5729 

I have always wondered why people go with tube amplifiers rather than going with more up to date technologies. There must be a reason why. I wonder what the sound difference is? 

larry - we are not deaf :)

second Brent Jesse

I have always wondered why people go with tube amplifiers rather than going with more up to date technologies.  There must be a reason why.  I wonder what the sound difference is?  I would think a good DAC would work just fine.  However, I am new to this hobby and need to learn more.

Churchgent,
I posted my recommended and not recommended brands for
your review. This advice was apparently too specific for this
group as it was removed. Good luck to you. I am done with this
forum.

@gochurchgo
Yes! The gain was too much with the cartridge that I use so I swapped to a lower gain tube in the phono preamp!

@yogiboy  are you still using a QS phono stage?

@gochuchgo
I have lowered the gain on my phono preamp swapping the 12AX7 with a 12AU7. You might see if you can do the same with the QS line stage!

12AX7 gain of 100
12AT7 gain of 60
12AY7 gain of 45
12AU7 gain of 19

@jjss49  I’ve heard that about Don. Mike is the same way. If I were to add a tubed power amp it would probably be one of Don’s although Mike’s are also highly regarded.

Bottom line is either you don't mind messing with tubes or you're done
with it. Personally I have x amount of stereo enjoyment time. I
sold the Cary and moved to Pass. To each his own. Good luck!

@gochurchgo 

i can strongly recommend the don sachs unit - aside from the superb sound, he can specifically use the correct capacitors to do proper gain and impedance matching to your amp

don likes tubed power amps though... in one recent exchange i have had with him he (semi) jokingly says 'well ya know all solid state amps kinda suck, right?' hahahaha

@tvad  I had a Freya + Vidar combo and was super not impressed. The Freya was untouchably hot and the tubes included were junk. I tried to make it all work but ultimately sent it all back. Seems like they have gotten it figured out but but I don’t know. As stated earlier I am strongly considering a Don Sachs PH14 but that wouldn’t be until end of next year at the soonest.
As for the QS, I didn’t really know about gain until I got it so my ignorance is my fault. Like I said though it specs out almost exactly the same as the Candela which was the original goal. Sometimes I think I made a mistake, but then I’m using a high gain amp with high sensitivity speakers (speakers were not what I originally was going to get but o feel I made the right choice with what I have).

@sounds_real_audio  already asked him about it. He said his design is good and not to mess with it. I may add my Schiit Sys in between the QS and the Odyssey to pull gain down and quell the start up POP when the QS comes on (Odyssey recommends leaving the amplifier on 24/7). Not sure if the SYS will be any better than putting rothwell attenuators in after the QS which I have done and seemed to reduce the hiss but also the dynamics a little
bit.

You hit the nail on the head. You have way too much gain for the amplifier. Check with Mike at quicksilver 

True NOS has little to do with test results. True NOS is a tube which has never been in a circuit other than a tester, which can be hard to discern at times. Most true NOS come with original boxes. Being NOS doesnt make the tube better it just means that the tube has never been used. Tests NOS is not true NOS. "NOS in white boxes" is rare and it is a misleading and some would say dishonest claim.

Further, I have seen up to a 20 to 25% variation in the test levels of true NOS tubes from the same family and manufacturer. Add to this the fact that each tester is idiosyncratic by tube type and you quickly understand that the average NOS reading listed of a particular tube is kind of a fiction. 

And next, when we use the term quiet or noisy are we talking solely about the hiss in the speaker drivers ?

A noisy tube will be just that. It will raise the noise floor through your system. IOW, where your system once had a black background, there is now a layer of noise. In a worst case scenario you will hear some tube rush through the speakers.
Amps, preamps, phonostages with high gain will make the noise from a tube more audible. A phonostage with it’s high amount of gain should always use tubes that have been noise-tested.

Even true NOS tubes in original boxes can have a degree of noise.

@cleeds I agree with this 100%.
Interestingly, in the tube re-seller world, there seems to be a propensity to label tubes as NOS. These very tubes are in fact used and measure as if new. I guess if one questions how many tubes from the 1950’s -1970’s have survived brand new in a box (that have NEVER been inserted into a tube socket), the answer to what is going on becomes more clear. Not saying i totally agree with the practice, but how many times has one bought a NOS tube and looked at the pins to see that they are brand new....I know I have bought these from so-called ’reputable’ tube re-sellers and the tube pins are anything but brand new! I was disclosed that they come in an original box ( mostly) and they test as new. ( which is also a ’relative’ term).

facten1

... as long you buy from a reputable dealer and he insures that the tube tests unused and measures within industry guidelines it is NOS ...

NOS = New Old Stock
Used ≠ New

Could be. Likewise as long as long you buy from a reputable dealer and he insures that the tube tests unused and measures within industry guidelines it is NOS

As far as the QS is concerned, my
previous was a Schiit SYS. So while I think the QS sounds good I don’t have any frame of reference. The high gain of the Odyssey made the Sys seem logical (though it was a stop gap). The SYS. Worked well and sounded fine. In the Odyssey forums it seems most pair with tube preamps and I wanted to get into tubes (the QS is my first piece of tube gear) so I guess I’ve been lucky until now. I would like to make my next purchase a tube phono stage and maybe even add a tube amplifier as an alternate. But maybe I’m not ready or have enough electronics knowledge.
I suffer from anxiety while also working 1 full time and 2 part time jobs. So when I can’t just take a couple hours and spin a few sides I get nuts. I’ve been lucky up to this point so I’ve leaned a lot. 
As an aside, anyone who upgraded from Quicksilver line stage I’d be curious as to what you upgraded to. 

facten

Help me understand why you think you need to be wary of NOS in white boxes from reputable tube dealers ...

Most likely, if it’s shipped in a white box, it isn’t New Old Stock. Rather, it’s a used tube in a plain white box.

Some tubes were shipped new by the manufacturer in bulk without an individual box, but they’re the exception.

" By wary of any tube seller that uses the term: "NOS in white boxes". Much more common with JAN tubes that were bulk packed, this term usually means that the tube tests as NOS and comes in a white box. Not the same thing. "

Help me understand why you think you need to be wary of NOS in white boxes from reputable tube dealers. I’ve had a NOS NIB RCA 12ax7 fail, and just had a New Production Psvane KT88 NIB fail after 300 hours. Any tube can fail regardless how they were packaged.

@yogiboy

Thanks. But like at Tube depot, they have an incremental charge of $4 for "Low Noise & Microphonics" which based on your description would seem to be binary or incompatible....? Is this a good option to choose ?

And next, when we use the term quiet or noisy are we talking solely about the hiss in the speaker drivers ? Really a nob question 😞

Brent Jessee sells high quality tubes. The catch is you must request noise testing; it's $10 per pair I believe. 
Depending on the circuit in your component you may need to use low-noise tubes. I only buy noise tested NOS tubes.

Andy at Vintage Tube Services includes testing for noise and microphonics, Upscale does as well.
 

By wary of any tube seller that uses the term: "NOS in white boxes". Much more common with JAN tubes that were bulk packed, this term usually means that the tube tests as NOS and comes in a white box. Not the same thing. 

@ gochurchgo. Very easy solution. Go Here http://tubeaudiostore.com/ ,
and look up your tubes. There will be three grades. Standard, Low Noise and Super Low noise. the SLN tubes are one in ten. Each tube is individual tested and a label with the important specification is placed on the side of the box. The SLN tubes are expensive but the SLN 6922 I got were an easy 10 dB quieter than the one ARC supplied with the phonostage. I am on my second set now and they are just as quiet as the first.  Basically you now exactly what you are getting and pay for it. Roger Modjesky created this process. He passed not long ago but his business soldiers one probably in the hand of his employees who really liked him alot. Several are contributors on this site. 
Everything else, all the NOS stuff included is a crapshoot. IMHO these people with their NOS tubes and Tube rolling are insane. Perhaps it is the tube rolling that made them insane. Many give up in frustration and switch to SS if they have any money left.

Tube Depot is fine, however they don't seem to have the same level of NOS stock that they used to have

Read up on Linear tube Audio and David Berning designs for a tube amp without noise or distortion.

@aj523
Tube Depot is fine!
Google is your friend! Here ya go!

As tubes wear, some problems can come up. One of the most common symptoms is a ringing sound. This is usually due to the tube becoming microphonic. Like its name suggests, a microphonic tube is picking up sound and amplifying it.

Dual triode preamp tubes like the 12AX7 really have two separate tubes inside one glass envelope. When the plate current draw of each triode is the same (as evaluated by our VTV testers), we refer to that as having balanced triodes. These may or may not also have the same gain on each triode but are still considered balanced.

12AX7 tube is a high gain dual triode tube found in many tube amps. Because of the high gain, the 12AX7 tube is often used in the V1 position of guitar amps, which has a lot of effect on sonics. It is the tube that defines the sound of your amp in a big way.

Any opinions on Tube Depot?

And can I please get educated on what add on options on tubes mean like
balanced triode
high gain
low noise and microphonic?

tube is used, it definitely isn't NOS.



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
True, but NOS are really hard to find and are quite expensive,
I always go with very strong/strong Old Stock. = Near NOS range. 

Big mistake going Solid state.
I am in the process of wrapping up a  upgrade on all resistors in my Jadis DPL linestage, 
The stock Jadis metal oxide are quite good actuallly, But the Takman Rey's are far superior, Huge gains on sonic performance. 

I'd say take all res in the quicksilver and swap out to Takman Rey's, start with main res 1st.
Richard swaped out in stages, 
Will post a  YT vid shortly showing off this upgrade.
If you can, go with Tele 12AX7 vs the RCA blackplates.
also upgrade your interconnects to navships. 
Recap with Mundorf EVO SG or Supreme EVO SGO.

daveyf

... these tubes are what are considered 'pulls'. IOW, they are tubes that have been used for years in some piece of gear and have been removed to now be sold as NOS tubes. Nothing wrong with this IMO ...

There is something very wrong with that. "NOS" means "New Old Stock." If the tube is used, it definitely isn't NOS.

Many of these tubes are what are considered 'pulls'. IOW, they are tubes that have been used for years in some piece of gear and have been removed to now be sold as NOS tubes. Nothing wrong with this IMO, so long as the tube is tested and correctly disclosed as a) used and b) tested to be sure it works to spec.
I currently have some Telefunkens that are labeled as Dynaco and have obviously been 'pulled' from a Dynaco kit. They sound great, are made by Telefunken in Germany and are perfectly good as to test etc.

First and always...
Take the tubes out and re-seat them. Sometimes that’s all that’s needed.

I have a 2 year old Don Sachs preamp...and the tubes got noisy...scratchy sounding. I simply turned the unit off, took all the tubes out remembering their positions and put them right back in. Never had a problem since.

This should be done before assuming tubes are bad.

Next find the offending tube by selectively replacing each one.

Then go from there...

I went back to SS. I had SS for many, many years and decided to try tubes. Too much noise so back to the SS gear. Been there, done that.

Can I get an explanation as to why one dealer has better tubes than another dealer presumably from the same manufacturers.  My only assumption would be that a set is matched or tested better at one dealer compared to another. Not being cynical. Truly just trying to figure out what the difference is take away the offered customer service.

Very few JAN (military) tubes were electronically any different than the normal tubes in the same family. They will sound the same, last the same length of time and, at best, were specially tested for certain characteristics like shock/vibration. 

I’m sending one tube back to him. He will make it right no doubt.  The nice thing about the Philips is that it rolls a little top
end off so there’s less hiss hahaha (my speakers are 99db). I do like the aphillips but the RCA are still my faves. I’m looking into others mentioned in this thread as well.