So I get the obvious strengths of Class D. Efficiency, power output & running cool which allows for small form factors. I also understand the weaknesses somewhat. 1. Non-linear & lots of distortion that needs to be cleaned up with an output filter. So my question is, if it weren't for efficiency & power, would there be any reason to own a Class D amp? Do they beat Class A in any other categories that count for sound quality?
Tech Hifi brings back so many memories of my teenage years. I used to love looking at their brochures of systems and listening to gear. At 15 years old I saved all I could on my first job and purchased my first system at Tech. I still remember what I purchased!
Micro Accoustics speakers with tweeter array Technics integrated amp with meters Kenwood KT series tuner Micro Seiki turntable radio shack wire
I used to covet the Micro Seiki tables but they were out of my price range back then. I settled for a very nice affordable and snazzy Philips 312.
My system I bought while there (dorm room sized) was Hitachi 802 Class G receiver, Phillps 312 table, Grado cart, Aiwa AD6550 cassette deck ( I loved that sexy beast), and OHM L speakers. Still have the OHM Ls that I’ve maintained and upgraded myself since. They can still compete and sound better than ever with my Class D amps.
I upgraded to a Tandberg tr2080 receiver I also coveted while at tech a couple years later bought at Leonard Radio on Route 17 in paramus NJ, a wonderful local shop at the time.
I'm perhaps a month into my Class D audition and I am very pleased. I agree with other posters that the goal is good sound and comparing my new Bel Canto ref600ms to my Supernait 2....well, it's not even close - the Bel Cantos are better in so many ways - dynamics, speed (yes, even against the PRaT Naim) and in particular imaging. The bass is excellent with so much more control and I find the mid/hi excellent as well. No ear ringing here!
I'm still comparing and learning - but I suspect soon my Supernait 2 will bo going to the 'Gon.
Since I am having fun exploring I may try to pick up a Class A or A/B to power mid/highs and keep the D's for the bass to bi-amp.
All in all, have to agree with mapman. I could live with this setup indefinitely - incredible sound more than anything. The benefits of small size and efficiency are just frosting on the cake. I'm tempted to find a Bel Canto 3.7 or similar preamp/dac to simplify my rig and save some $$$. As always, it will depend on the sound!
Geekboy I run arc sp16 tube preamp and mhdt Constantine DAC into my Bel Canto ref1000m amps. Also a Bel Canto c5i integrated in my second smaller system. . I spend many hours just listening and enjoying more so than ever. Class D amps and my Ohm Walsh style speakers together are the most likely to not be replaced anytime soon at this point.
BTW I have used Triangle Titus monitors now for many years with a lot of gear and these are currently running of Bel Canto C5i Class D integrated and the sound with these tiny very resolving monitors is the best ever. Absolutely no signs of brightness or edge which I have found to be possible with many amps. The sound is just lovely overall. Same true with Dynaudio Contour 1.3mkII monitors I’ve used with the C5i. Both Dynaudio and Triangle sound absolutely marvelous with c5i (as do OHM Walsh speakers) but I lean towards the Triangles over the Dynaudios with the c5i mainly because they are more efficient than the Dynaudios and the 60 w/ch output of the c5i is plenty for the Triangles whereas the less efficient Dynaudios are not fully engaged with only 60w/ch.
That's really good. My one exposure to Triangle was with high-end McIntosh gear in the early 2000s and bright and glaring is exactly what they sounded like. It never occured to me to consider the amps.
I'm listening with very high end AMT tweeters and ICEPower amps and there's not a hint of glare or brightness. These tweets are flat to 20kHz, and have considerable output to 30kHz. Maybe -6 dB?
I also have a center channel with an equally exquisite ring-radiator used by many high-end manufacturers (Sonus Faber, Krell, etc.) and again, not a hint of glare or grain.
They sound just like the Parasound A23s I had before. Which, while you can argue not the best SS ever, are linear amps.
erik last McIntosh demo I had was with Totem Mani 2 and other newer Totems. It was somewhat bright and glaring compared to other Totem demos I had heard. Other than that the Mani 2s left an impression and remain on my list of speakers I would like to own, especially with the right amp to make them shine.
I’ve also heard Goldenear Aeon monitors with folded ribbon tweets off NAD amps and there was no edge or glare at all there. In fact fatigue factor was extremely low, towards the polite side. I liked the Aeons a lot as well.
Its usually all in how well matched things are to work together in a manner that performs well and also suits the listener’s preferences (two different but related things).
erik can’t say for sure based on one or two example demos. These were about 3 years ago with newer larger SS Mc amps.
Personally I often would like to be able to hear an edge that’s not muted if in teh recording. Not in everything played categorically though. The Mcs would probably have been fine for this if set up the way I liked rather than how the dealer decided to do it.
Guaranteed the edge would be less on my OHM speakers versus with Totem or Dynaudio or many others that are not inherently more laid back in presentation. Only some modern pop .mp3 files I play from time to time have any edge at all with the OHMs. Much more so with Dynaudios in my smaller room with speakers not far from listening poisition and off same Class D amp. Most .mp3s which are inherently known for artifacts that can contribute to harshness/brightness are still quite listenable.
I think you're correct that the D-Sonic stereo amp (M3-3000S) uses the Pascal X-Pro2 module, the same module JRRG uses in their C2 integrated, and their top of the line mono-blocks(M3-1500M) utilize Pascal X-Pro1 modules.
The D-Sonic M2-1500M received an excellent review by 6Moons. According to Dennis, the M2 and M3 1500 monos are the exact same and both utilize Pascal X-Pro1 modules. Here's a link to the review:
Ok so I am way too lazy to read ALL of the posts in here but scanned through a few. I was probably in the group pf class d naysayers due to a bad experience a few years back with a pair of bel canto 500m monoblocks that were basically, well soulless, inert, etc etc. Now after a very positive upgrade of my ht rig from a pair of emotiva space heaters to a single nuforce class d i am ready to be convinced.
so any sensible recommendations to audition for my system which I have to say i am very happy with right now but i am always open minded.
present is esoterIc sa-50, ARC LS2 pre, b&w 804d and BAT VK600SE.
@uberwaltz..... try a Red Dragon S500. I've had mine for nearly a year, and have no itch to go back to SET or any other tubed or SS amps. There's one listed in us audio mart. No affiliation.
Put a tube preamp in front of it, and off you go. 6Moons favorably compared it to $8k Luxman class A monoblocks.
Bottom line is it will sound like what's in front of it, it is so transparent, imo!
Hi UberWaltz, Bel Canto Ref500 is not one of my favorite amps... Even when it was current technology, it lacked the sweetness and transparency of its more powerful REF1000 Mk.2 brother.
On the other hand, it is worth mentioning that ICEpower-based amps have traditionally been bears to break-in.... And for at least a couple hundred hours out of the box they tend to sound dry and uninvolving.
In your $5K price range, I suggest you look into the current Bel Canto REF600 monoblocks, which are based on the excellent NCore NC1200 modules.... All NC1200 implementatios I have heard this far have been sweet and musical.... And you should hear some decent music out of them within about 200 hours.... But complete break-in hovers around the 1000 hours boundary.
One more mono amp... Below $3K is the D-Sonic M3/1500. It is based on the excellent Pascal X-Pro2 module:
On the other hand, it is worth mentioning that ICEpower-based amps have traditionally been bears to break-in.... And for at least a couple hundred hours out of the box they tend to sound dry and uninvolving.
Any idea what part of the amp is breaking in and what is happening during this process?
Hi seanheis1, I am not sure what circuit components are most prone to evolving during break-in.... I suspect that it is just about everything, from resistors, caps, boards, conducting traces, grounding surfaces, connectors, dyelectrics.... According to Jeff ROwland, capacitors and transformers are particularly slow at breaking in.... And am not sure what is the electro-magnetic phenomenon at play either. I only know that I invariably experience significant audible evolution during break-in.... And it is not a particularly linear phenomenon either..... there are lots of dips and peaks during this period.... Gradually tapering off.
ICEpower modules seem particularly unattractive out of the box.... a more benign break-in curve can be experienced with NCore NC1200 and Pascal M-Pro2.... But do not expect miracles from any brand new class-D amp.... My experience is that patience does remain Golden *Grins!*
Hey Quido, a correction on the REF600's they use the NC1200 switching power supply but with the NC500 output board, so does the Acoustic Imagery Atsah 500's and the Nord One Up mono amps, these two amps are around 2K
It is the NuForce MCA20 which is based on the sta-100 modules I think? Various reports state they only get better with burn in time and if that is the case then I will be even happier! Last night we watched terminator genysis which is very heavy on gunshots, explosions and all round action and the sound effects were truly stunning with our full 7.1 system, vast improvement over the old Emotivas, and this is with barely 20 hours run time on it.
Like 1markr I'd recommend the Red Dragon S500. I've had mine for almost a year, and although it may not yet be fully burned in (I don't listen for many hours each week) I am really pleased with the sound: clear, transparent, very well-controlled and articulate bass, natural-sounding treble, and well balanced overall. Because I live in Britain it was more expensive for me to obtain than it is for you in the USA, but I'm very glad I bought it. As you get a 45-days return option you can really hear what it's like in your room and with your equipment.
The rest of my equipment resembles yours: Esoteric X-05 SACD player, Townshend Allegri preamp, and B&W 804S speakers.
I received my PS audio S300 amp on Friday. Initially, the sound had no bottom end and sounded THIN. At that rate it was on a fast track for a return if it didn’t open up with some more time.
I recently purchased a Marantz AV8802A which has balanced connection capability. This was one of my motivations for purchasing the S300.
I decided to remove my MIT single ended cables ($600 for comparison purposes) and switched to the balanced connections (Mogami XLT $80) which are the only balanced cables I own. HORKY FINORKY! and WOW! simultaneously!!!! Suddenly, the amp exploded with detail, bottom end heft and specificity of instrument placement. Once again, WOW! I had no idea an amplifier could be such a significant difference. This literally kicked sand in the face of my Outlaw 140 watt per channel amp. I had no complaints with that amp either. I was very pleased with it prior to this. It’s a great home theater work horse. 2 channel music listening? No comparison.
I never expected Bruno Putzey (inventor of UcD & Ncore) to answer the question of this thread, but he did in a very candid Sound & Vision interview.
S&V: Generally speaking, what are the key benefits of Class D versus the traditional Class AB and Class A designs that have long been favored by audiophiles?
BP: Efficiency and therefore the ability to construct amps that are powerful for their size. Only that. Modern Class D amps, in particular mine—ahem—sound good not because they’re Class D, but in spite of it. I can’t repeat that often enough. Left to its own devices, a switching power stage tries to do just about anything except amplify audio. You choose Class D to save energy but it’s all elbow grease after that. People don’t realize how much more challenging Class D is compared to Class AB. It’s truly an order of magnitude. Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/content/bruno-putzeys-head-class-d#AIQPKcJQwFsL2Zkd.99
Anyone can make a switching amp. Making one that sounds good is a whole other thing. Any manufacturer who can bring that kind of engineering talent on board would be VERY VERY lucky indeed.
The paper Dr. Marshall Leach wrote in the late 1970's transformed solid state design so much that every amp after almost had the exact same layout. (a little hyperbole). Digital is not yet that mature in my mind. Still ways to innovate.
NuForce and Yamaha with their hybrid / Carver / NAD like approaches to marrying linear to Class D amps is pretty cool. Technics with their auto-correcting technology is also something to look forward to.
I have over 500 hrs on my S-500 and thought I might comment a little about it.I think it's a step up in Sound vs nc400 and ref600m,these are the 3 class d amps that I own and I have access to more through a local audio club where we lend and or borrow equipment or occasionally listen to each other's systems.
I have been using a bel canto pre3 with all the diff. amps just to make a even playing field,the pre 3 is a pure water no coloration preamp.
The S-500 is the best class d amp I have had in my system and it has the warmest most engaging midrange with very sweet nicely extended top end that has more air and separation with the individual instruments making the entire frequency range very coherent.The bass is equally as good maybe better than my other class d amps listed.
I borrowed a Nuprime st10 to try out and found it too be a very close match to the S-500,with the nod to the S-500 for the best overall sound especially the midrange.
Offcourse this is in my system with my ears and judging the musical presentation that I prefer.
The next test will be comparison with a modwright kwa100se that I have owned for a few years but I haven't used it in about 3 years,I have loaned it out to club members though.I know it's a very good amp but can it equal or beat the S-500,only time will tell.
The nuprime should be considered more seriously, is not just one of the best class d, but one of the best under 10.000 usd maybe, here is compared with some big guys like ayre, mola mola, primaluna, Bryston in very high end systems, hope this helps someone like it helps me to make a decision
Although one should always be skeptical of audio reviews due to quid pro quo, this statement is quite the endorsement. I know that NuPrime has specifically tried to mimic the sound of linear amps (if you read their marketing copy) so their engineers may be doing something right.
I’ve heard many class D amps, but have liked very few. While bass control and neutrality are often a piece of cake for these amps, they are usually let down by thinness, harmonic deficiences and an unnatural timbre. The NuPrime ST-10 is the first class D design that sounds timbrally wholly convincing to me. Piano really sounds like piano, not like synthesizer and vocals are just as direct-coupled as they are in real life. Add in bass heft and thundering dynamics like I have not yet heard from other class D designs. Only the Mola-Mola Kalugas ultimately provide more refinement and transparency but these are placed at the complete opposite price spectrum.
The fact is that its too new for Class D's..... the sound is just not there. There is a class D that can compete, (Merrill - but it costs many thousands)....but for now, they are just not musical.
"
he fact is that its too new for Class D's..... the sound is just not there. There is a class D that can compete, (Merrill - but it costs many thousands)....but for now, they are just not musical."
stringreen,
You obviously need to either reread this entire thread or gain some personal experience by auditioning some of the many very good and reasonably priced class D amps currently available.
I've had the M700's for over a month. I first got a PS Audio DirectStream DAC w/Bridge II for streaming MQA. I noticed the M700 on the PSA forum but was hesitant to replace my custom built Stratos. I had done a shot-out for my 3.6 speakers by buying several used amps: Butler, MacIntosh 205, a class A heater, and a tube amp. The Stratos won out on detail. I resold the other amps. When I got the M700's I read they take a long time to burn-in. I let them run when I was away. I knew that the Stratos amps were underpowered for the 3.6's. I use the DirectStream as a pre. The M700's handle the 3.6' with effortless agility. Sometimes you think the musicians are in the room - a little spooky. The sound stage is locked in place. My Maggies have never sounded like this. The Stereophile online review is out and paper is on the way. The M700 was favorabley compared to $12,000 speaker.
Just demoed the Digital Amplifier Company (DAC) Stereo Maraschino (STM) feeding 100db Charney Audio Maestro horns for the last month. Detailed nuances, great tone, deep and wide soundstage, with spot on imaging to boot. In many ways it bested my 300b integrated that is 4x the cost. I have listened to a few class d amps in the past (Bel Canto, CIA, TBI,Crown XLS, ClassD, and a couple 3XXX designs) the DAC STM is hands down the best of that bunch. I had about given up on class d when I contacted Tommy at DAC and he sent me his demo STM to use for a month. The DAC STM is a special little amp that delivers delicate highs with serious ball when needed. I will be purchasing a pair of mono's in the near future and the soon to be released digital preamp.
PS Audio has a home try out program. You can try out M700's and if you decide you don't like them they pay shipping both ways at no cost. On a PSA forum one person tried out a S300 amp. He returned it before it was burned in. PSA did their own burn-in and sent it back for another trial. He kept it and loves it. I just take a chance for a 33% discount from Steve at HighPerformanceStereo. No disappointments here.
Had anyone owned various Class D amps and settled on one magical enough to made you feel like you "couldn't wait to get home and listen" for hours (not from a sweet spot) but just throughout the house as you went about home life?
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