Technics SE-R1 is not a class d amp.
Class D is just Dandy!
I thought it was time we had a pro- Class D thread. There's plenty of threads about comparisons, or detractors of Class D.
That's fine, you don't have to like Class D amps, and if you don't please go participate on one of those threads.
For those of us who are very happy and excited about having musical, capable amps that we can afford to keep on 24/7 and don't require large spaces to put them in, this thread is for you.
Please share your experiences with class D amps!
That's fine, you don't have to like Class D amps, and if you don't please go participate on one of those threads.
For those of us who are very happy and excited about having musical, capable amps that we can afford to keep on 24/7 and don't require large spaces to put them in, this thread is for you.
Please share your experiences with class D amps!
861 responses Add your response
No I haven’t yet as the Technics SE-R1 is unobtainium here in Australia, and you need to order them and have deep pockets in counties that do retail them. But from the number of Class-D’s I had here listened to and measured, they (Technics) seem to address to a certain extent the problems that they all have still, which is the filtering that has to get of the switching frequency noise, without it effecting the audio band in any way, and the only way to do this is to raise the switching frequency by at least triple, Technics have done double with the SE-R1 so were on the way. But these are typical of reviews (below) of the sound they give out from those that have heard it, and there are more from others on the web. " Listening to tracks that we’ve heard 100s of times — and on excellent systems at that — is now a revelation of once hidden nuance and detail. Not only are we hearing things we’d never heard before, we’re hearing it in a way we’ve never heard it before. A music system that sounds like a live performance is a tough goal to attain, but Technics’ flagship nails it." Cheers George |
Hi George, it is quite possible that an increase of switching frequencies by by a factor of 2, 5 or possibly 10 might very well enhance the sound of well designed class D amps.... Or at least, such higher frequencies might be a contributing factor. I have not heard the new Panasonic that use these new transistors, so I do not know how they would compare to the current crop of the better class D amps.... But sure am curious. And when reproduced music becomes even more enchanting than what I experience now from my Rowland M925 monos, I'll be the first one to celebrate the event. Have you heard these new Panasonic amps yet? If you have, please let us know your first hand impressions. Saluti, G. |
Like I said once before, to the ones that have blinkers on, they will be the first to change to the higher switching frequencies when they become available, that's almost a given. As for now maybe just trying to protect their investments, with ignoring that the higher switching frequencies will give them what many hear is a problem with Class-D, which effects the upper mid/highs. Cheers George |
@sfseay Not sure about how sighted tests of power cables would even work.... May be some rare sighted people are able to hear through their eyes instead of their ears?! Oddly enough, I experience no difficulty discerning differences amongst power cords, exotics and inexpensive ones alike. On the other hand, what would I know.... I have been as blind as a bat in a sealed barrell of tar for the last 33 years. All my audio tests have been totally blind ones since 1984. I must be really unfortunate, being bount to listen to music only through my ears *Grins!* G.
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@mdeblanc - I used the power cables that came with the amps. I don't put much stock in swapping power cables. It is never been proven they impact sound and people claim they hear a difference but in blind tests they can't. Their ears fail them when their eyes can't see. I have two PS audio signature power cables that came with a PS Audio PCA-2 preamp I bought not long ago. I use one for the PS Audio HCPS and one for my Sony HAP-Z1. I don't notice any difference in the sound. I will ebay the power cables and use the money to buy CDs or High Res files. i just bought a Luxman integrated amp to save space, and will probably sell the Meraks and the PS Audio preamp and HCPS to pay for the Luxman. |
All, doubtless George enjoys throwing red herrings that are well past their prime... And the whole argument of... If a luminary like ML could not do class D right, it must mean that class D is not ready for prime time is, well.... A logical fallacy called a flawed induction step. On the other hand, this being an open forum hosted in an open Country, asking friend George to decamp and settle on a more traditionalist audio watering whole is not a very nice thing to do to an old friend. His amused needling of us is actually refreshing... Makes us remember that things are ever evolving, and that what we deem fabulous today, will before long be deemed obsolete. And who knows.. May be those superfast transistors he is always talking about will before long let class D amps achieve this vaunted realm of 0.003% distortion. Oh... I must be daft. NCore NC1200 based amps are already capable of 0.003% distortion plus or minus some smidjin.... using standard 500Khz switching frequencies... Oh well, Need to find something else that class D can'd do.... We sure wouldn't want to use our ears and discover amazing music on class D to our chagrin, wouldn't we?! G.
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It's an open forum, that much is true. There is also proper etiquette and simple common courtesy. When someone opens a discussion and states clearly: "I thought it was time we had a pro- Class D thread. There's plenty of threads about comparisons, or detractors of Class D. That's fine, you don't have to like Class D amps, and if you don't please go participate on one of those threads. For those of us who are very happy and excited about having musical, capable amps that we can afford to keep on 24/7 and don't require large spaces to put them in, this thread is for you." When you come in with your negative comments and unwanted opinions, you are what is known as a "thread crapper". No one asked for your side of the class d issue. In fact, your side was specifically asked to post elsewhere. You aren't enlightening anyone here as to the evils of class d or changing any minds, you are simply putting your coarse character on display for all to see. |
This is an open forum, I believe that Class-d should be seen from both sides of the camp, not censored to just the pro-camp, this way members can make up their own minds whether or not to get one, because all do not see "Class-D as being just dandy". Maybe soon in the future when the switching frequency can be raised double or tripple with advancement in semi conductor technology, so then it’s output filter can do it’s job properly without negative effect to the upper mids and highs. Cheers George |
BTW, I have no particular opinion on ML amps, but the generalized claims Fremer made in the article were just not true anymore for Class D amps. Whether any reader here likes a particular amp or not, well, OK, I can't argue with that. But the general issues with Class D amps of the 1980's were long solved by 2013, despite some people being unwilling to let go of the same old myths. Best, E |
I haven’t listened to Icepower so can’t comment. The Levinson comment is a red herring. There are other companies, like Bel Canto, who were well known for their tube amps, but have ditched them in favor of class d in general, Hypex in particular. From a performance standpoint, there are few amps in the world which can match the ncore for closeness to an ideal amplifier, i.e., a "wire with gain". The last thing that would influence my purchase of any piece of audio gear is someone else's opinion of the sound. Reviewer or otherwise. Like someone telling me which wine or beer I should buy.... |
erik_squires OP2,223 posts06-24-2017 12:24pmFremer's 2013 review was riddled with bias. He's no neutral observer. Well John Atkinson also backed his "bias" after doing the measurements. " The sound was initially very impressive. It had tremendous dynamic sweep, with superb control of the Wilsons' woofers, tremendous clarity, and nothing identifiably wrong. However, the more I listened, the more the overall sonic picture seemed flat and uninvolving. An enigma.—John Atkinson" Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/mark-levinson-no53-reference-monoblock-power-amplifier-measureme... Cheers George |
Hi @chrisr Class D is not Digital, but for the next type in sequence, after A, B, C. They are switching amps, but everything is controlled in the analog domain. Designers like Bruno Putzeys bristle at the term "digital" amplifiers. There is no A/D or D/A process. At least, not how DAC's think of them. Some class D are also digital, but rather rare. I'm thinking of the latest Technics amps. So, no, most Class D amps take in analog signals only. Best, E |
Interesting read on two expensive high end mono-blocks from Mark Levinson. The $50K No.53 Class-D mono-blocks where they spent considerable time and effort to address and rid the problems of class-D, but never got the great review (listening or measurement) they hoped for. https://www.stereophile.com/content/mark-levinson-no53-reference-monoblock-power-amplifier Then back to their linear $30K No.536 mono-blocks Class A/B, which by comparison got a great review (listening and measurements). https://www.stereophile.com/content/mark-levinson-no536-monoblock-power-amplifier Goes to show, even a pedigree company, with credentials up the wazoo, can't get Class-D to better their own cheaper linear amps. Cheers George |
I've had tripath, spectron, and now hypex. In the past I have owned both tube and class a solid state amps. Once I found hypex, I have never looked elsewhere. It all comes down to personal preference. Some like the tube sound, others don't. There is no right or wrong. I always get a kick out of the audio nazis who put other's choices down with their snobby attitude and need to justify their own preferences - as if their version of reality is the only valid interpretation. |
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Just to keep the thread active: Please refer to my post of 5/20. I am a little disappointed in you folks, or maybe you were just trying to spare me the embarrassment of so obvious an oversight. First, The TP30 II is not class D; it's class T. More importantly there certainly is a way to turn the speakers off on the I32. It's called a MUTE button. Sometimes I can be so obtuse! Any way, I am glad I got everything well sorted out and can now easily select speakers, standard headphones and electrostatics as the mood strikes me. |
So, a lovely resolution and a mystery have presented themselves.. My amp, after barely functioning the morning after my screw up, works perfectly now. I put it back in, just to triple check that it is the amp, not the pre, and it's back to normal. I did disconnect the input connector and reseat it, as well as remove the fuse, check it and reinstall it. At any rate, yay! As for the mystery, I bought these from an Audiogon seller who said they were Ghent audio monos. When I opened the case, though, these amps each have one ICEpower 500 asp module, not the 2 ICEpower 200 ASP modules per amp that Ghent uses. So these are not Ghent monoblocks.. I guess someone built these themselves using Ghent cases. Interesting.. |
Hi Todd! If memory Serves, Ghent uses these a lot, if true, lot less expensive than the big modules: http://www.ebay.com/itm/B-O-ICEpower-125ASX2-Class-D-amplifier-module-new-old-stock-/182573247581?ha... Best, E |
Oh man. I broke one of my amps tonight. Miswired an IC I built. I need your genius class D smarts please. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/oh-man-i-broke-my-class-d-amp-make-fun-of-me-then-help Pretty please? |
@confuse_upgradeitis - I used a crown xls1500 for about two years. This past winter I bought a used pair of Ghent audio class D monoblocks here on Audiogon. I was sceptical, since their power ratings were the same, but I was getting too curious about what, if anything, would sound different from my crown. What I’ve heard is an improvement in clarity, sound source separation, a reduction in harshness and an increase in bass clarity and smoothness. In addition, the sound stage is deeper and wider. Now, all of these differences took a few days, maybe a week, to discern. So, while it was a significant improvement, it wasn’t a quantum leap and I still greatly respect what the crown brought to my system for $325 brand stinking new. I did, however, go from a stereo amp to monos, so I can’t speak as to what improvements were due to a better amp and what were due to moving to monos. |
Great thread! Thanks to all for sharing :) I have to say something now................... I use Crown XLS amp with my pair of Magnepan 1.7i. I read online about Crown amps and maggies, and took the plunge. I am really happy with the sound. It has been little bit over a year I have this system primarily for 2.1 channel music listening. So far I have resisted the urge to switch my amp to something else - tube or ss, class A or A/B. One time almost bought a McIntosh MC452. But that was mostly for the sexy blue vumeter and to have some bragging rights as a McIntosh owner :) Occasionally I wonder though about switching to any of the other class Ds mentioned here like Bel Canto or W4S or NuPrime or Red Dragon. Will that improve the sound like what I constantly read in any amp or preamp discussion / review, like larger sound-stage or better separation of instruments or more air or faster micro-dynamics etc.? I don't know! |
Welcome @nonoise I must say, AA makes some of the very best looking gear. :) Also, there are a number of new (< 5years) dacs which sound outstanding at any resolution, and make Hi-Res and SACD less important to me. Thanks @mdeblanc glad you found a good resource. Let us know what you listen to and what you end up buying. Best, E |