I thought it was time we had a pro- Class D thread. There's plenty of threads about comparisons, or detractors of Class D.
That's fine, you don't have to like Class D amps, and if you don't please go participate on one of those threads.
For those of us who are very happy and excited about having musical, capable amps that we can afford to keep on 24/7 and don't require large spaces to put them in, this thread is for you.
Just by reading your posts, I am convinced that you are stuck in Class A/B la la land. Since you're struck there that can only mean one thing: not being firmly in the present.
Through either anxiously living in an anticipated future or stuck in the habitual past, we cut ourselves off from the inspiration and creativity that exists when we are fully present.
The following five steps may help you clear away the mental cobwebs, swiftly returning you back to the creative flow where you belong.
1. Hit the Shower 2. Seek out Sweat Sessions 3. Change the Channel 4. Change the Environment 5. Still stuck, seek professional help.
Class D is here and contending head and shoulders with Class A/B.
Well said, as I've also stated, even I will ditch my boat anchors when the technology allows that dreaded switching frequency (Class-D's Achilles heel) to be 2-3 times higher than what it is. Then it will be an amp to contend with.
....and I'm happy to see that this thread is having some relatively 'healthy' give 'n take. *G* (Knuckle bump to Eric)
D will become Dominant; it's just a matter of taming the beast to become 'tolerable' to those of us with 'sensitive ears'...
*S* Yes, that's a tad snide, but y'all have to be a little patient for the designers and manufacturers to 'get it down'. ;)
I won't be surprised if some wag comes out with a D amp that has a option that would duplicate the 'sound' of an A, an A/B, or whatever... Perhaps a function labeled 'Variable'. *L* Twiddle 'till you're seriously happy or seriously disgusted....
Some people can't get over the fact that not everyone sees, or hears, things the way they do. While most people are happy to let others enjoy whatever pleases them, some can't help but pee on their parade. It must be some sort of perverse character flaw.
BTW, I've had a number of golden eared audiophiles listen to my system. The issue of Class D never comes up until the end. No one ever says "OH, wow, I can hear the Class D problems!"
We talk music, headphones, speakers, and room acoustics. On the way out some one will ask, "Oh by the way, where are your amps??"
It’s a digital amp, not a class d amp. From the Absolute Sound article on the Technics SE-R1:
"Digital Amplifiers As with Class D amplifiers, digital amplifiers use a switching output stage; however, they accept digital rather than analog input signals. These “digital” amplifiers take in the pulse-code modulation (PCM) signal from a music server or other source and convert those audio data to a pulse-width modulated signal. This PWM signal then drives the output transistors, just as in a Class D amplifier. The difference between a Class D amplifier and a digital amplifier is that the digital amplifier accepts digital data rather than an analog signal."
Perhaps it’s more like a power dac....
Regardless, there is no doubt it sounds great, just like the Hypex ncore....People can whine all they want about switching speeds, blah blah blah...the ears don’t care...luddites need not apply...
George is correct in categorizing the Technics SE-R1 as a class D amplifier. It uses a pulse-width modulated switching output stage, and it is therefore a class D amplifier by definition. Various architectural differences that it has with respect to most other class D amplifiers, including the ability to accept digital inputs from a mating Technics preamp and keep the signal in the digital domain until it is converted to the PWM signal that controls the output stage, do not change that fact. Statements such as the following, which appeared in this TAS review, are misleading and incorrect in drawing a distinction between class D and digital amplifiers:
Indeed, this is not a traditional Class A, Class AB, or even Class D amplifier. Rather, it is a rare breed known as a “digital” amplifier....
As with Class D amplifiers, digital amplifiers use a switching output stage; however, they accept digital rather than analog input signals. These “digital” amplifiers take in the pulse-code modulation (PCM) signal from a music server or other source and convert those audio data to a pulse-width modulated signal. This PWM signal then drives the output transistors, just as in a Class D amplifier. The difference between a Class D amplifier and a digital amplifier is that the digital amplifier accepts digital data rather than an analog signal.
What would be correct would be to say that a "digital amplifier" in this context is a form of a class D amplifier. And as such, like any other class D amplifier its design must address the issue of output stage switching speed. And the sonic consequences, if any, of the low pass filter at the output of the amp for which the required bandwidth is a function of that switching speed.
No I didn’t say that Techinics"finally fixes the Class-D problems. I said: " they (Technics) seem to address to a certain extent the problems that they all have still"
Really? Just because it uses a linear rather than a crap SMP power supply, doesn't mean it's not Class-D
From Stereophile: " Although the SE-R1’s huge twin output meters and beautiful anodized-aluminum finish were visually distracting, the marketing of a Class-D amplifier as a separate high-end component was important. This amplifier delivered some of the best reproduced sound at CES 2017. I persuaded Bill Voss to rip the contents of my copy of Rutter’s Requiem to his media server’s solid-state drive. The broad and deep soundstage, imaging, upper midrange detail, and bass extension were thrilling during the system’s rendition of "Lord, make me an instrument of thy peace" and "Pie Jesu." I appreciated the work done by the Technics staff to prepare their exhibit suite with recessed sound-absorbing panels. I left wanting to hear more."
From Audioholics: " On the amplifier side, the SU-C700 and SE-R1 are utilizing advanced Class D topologies, featuring a couple new acronyms, JENO and LAPC. JENO (Jitter elimination and noise shaping optimization) provides clock regeneration for low jitter switching in the amplifier stage, sample rate converter, as well as a pulse width modulator that feeds the output stage. LAPC (Load Adaptive Phase Calibration) on the other hand is designed to maintain frequency and phase response regardless of loudspeaker impedance, which is a weakness in some Class D implementations. Finally, the output stage utilizes gallium arsenide FETs (field effect transistors) with a claimed switching speed of 1.5MHz."
From Audio Aficionado: " .I read a blip in The Absolute Sound that the Technics SE-R1 power amp ($18,000.00) is Class D. It uses a linear power supply rather than a switch mode power supply to produce 100 watts per channel. That’s a lot of money for a 100 w/p/c Class D amp. Along with the Technics SE-R1 Class D amplifier they also introduced the SU-R1 Network Audio Control Player preamp ($9000.00) and new SB-R1 Reference Speaker ($27,000.00). Technics calls this system the R1 Reference System."
I have not heard the new Technics that use these new transistors, so I do not know how they would compare to the current crop of the better class D amps.... But sure am curious.
Have you heard these new Technics SE-R1 amps yet? If you have, please let us know your first hand impressions.
Saluti, G.
No I haven’t yet as the Technics SE-R1 is unobtainium here in Australia, and you need to order them and have deep pockets in counties that do retail them.
But from the number of Class-D’s I had here listened to and measured, they (Technics) seem to address to a certain extent the problems that they all have still, which is the filtering that has to get of the switching frequency noise, without it effecting the audio band in any way, and the only way to do this is to raise the switching frequency by at least triple, Technics have done double with the SE-R1 so were on the way.
But these are typical of reviews (below) of the sound they give out from those that have heard it, and there are more from others on the web.
" Listening to tracks that we’ve heard 100s of times — and on excellent systems at that — is now a revelation of once hidden nuance and detail. Not only are we hearing things we’d never heard before, we’re hearing it in a way we’ve never heard it before. A music system that sounds like a live performance is a tough goal to attain, but Technics’ flagship nails it."
Hi George, it is quite possible that an increase of switching frequencies by by a factor of 2, 5 or possibly 10 might very well enhance the sound of well designed class D amps.... Or at least, such higher frequencies might be a contributing factor.
I have not heard the new Panasonic that use these new transistors, so I do not know how they would compare to the current crop of the better class D amps.... But sure am curious.
And when reproduced music becomes even more enchanting than what I experience now from my Rowland M925 monos, I'll be the first one to celebrate the event.
Have you heard these new Panasonic amps yet? If you have, please let us know your first hand impressions.
Like I said once before, to the ones that have blinkers on, they will be the first to change to the higher switching frequencies when they become available, that's almost a given. As for now maybe just trying to protect their investments, with ignoring that the higher switching frequencies will give them what many hear is a problem with Class-D, which effects the upper mid/highs.
Not sure about how sighted tests of power cables would even work.... May be some rare sighted people are able to hear through their eyes instead of their ears?!
Oddly enough, I experience no difficulty discerning differences amongst power cords, exotics and inexpensive ones alike. On the other hand, what would I know.... I have been as blind as a bat in a sealed barrell of tar for the last 33 years. All my audio tests have been totally blind ones since 1984.
I must be really unfortunate, being bount to listen to music only through my ears *Grins!*
@mdeblanc - I used the power cables that came with the amps. I don't put much stock in swapping power cables. It is never been proven they impact sound and people claim they hear a difference but in blind tests they can't. Their ears fail them when their eyes can't see.
I have two PS audio signature power cables that came with a PS Audio PCA-2 preamp I bought not long ago. I use one for the PS Audio HCPS and one for my Sony HAP-Z1. I don't notice any difference in the sound. I will ebay the power cables and use the money to buy CDs or High Res files.
i just bought a Luxman integrated amp to save space, and will probably sell the Meraks and the PS Audio preamp and HCPS to pay for the Luxman.
All, doubtless George enjoys throwing red herrings that are well past their prime... And the whole argument of... If a luminary like ML could not do class D right, it must mean that class D is not ready for prime time is, well.... A logical fallacy called a flawed induction step.
On the other hand, this being an open forum hosted in an open Country, asking friend George to decamp and settle on a more traditionalist audio watering whole is not a very nice thing to do to an old friend.
His amused needling of us is actually refreshing... Makes us remember that things are ever evolving, and that what we deem fabulous today, will before long be deemed obsolete. And who knows.. May be those superfast transistors he is always talking about will before long let class D amps achieve this vaunted realm of 0.003% distortion.
Oh... I must be daft. NCore NC1200 based amps are already capable of 0.003% distortion plus or minus some smidjin.... using standard 500Khz switching frequencies... Oh well, Need to find something else that class D can'd do.... We sure wouldn't want to use our ears and discover amazing music on class D to our chagrin, wouldn't we?!
It's an open forum, that much is true. There is also proper etiquette and simple common courtesy. When someone opens a discussion and states clearly:
"I thought it was time we had a pro- Class D thread. There's plenty of threads about comparisons, or detractors of Class D.
That's fine, you don't have to like Class D amps, and if you don't please go participate on one of those threads.
For
those of us who are very happy and excited about having musical,
capable amps that we can afford to keep on 24/7 and don't require large
spaces to put them in, this thread is for you."
When you come in with your negative comments and unwanted opinions, you are what is known as a "thread crapper".
No one asked for your side of the class d issue. In fact, your side was specifically asked to post elsewhere. You aren't enlightening anyone here as to the evils of class d or changing any minds, you are simply putting your coarse character on display for all to see.
This is an open forum, I believe that Class-d should be seen from both sides of the camp, not censored to just the pro-camp, this way members can make up their own minds whether or not to get one, because all do not see "Class-D as being just dandy".
Maybe soon in the future when the switching frequency can be raised double or tripple with advancement in semi conductor technology, so then it’s output filter can do it’s job properly without negative effect to the upper mids and highs.
BTW, I have no particular opinion on ML amps, but the generalized claims Fremer made in the article were just not true anymore for Class D amps.
Whether any reader here likes a particular amp or not, well, OK, I can't argue with that. But the general issues with Class D amps of the 1980's were long solved by 2013, despite some people being unwilling to let go of the same old myths.
The Levinson comment is a red herring. There are other companies, like Bel Canto, who were well known for their tube amps, but have ditched them in favor of class d in general, Hypex in particular.
From a performance standpoint, there are few amps in the world which can match the ncore for closeness to an ideal amplifier, i.e., a "wire with gain".
The last thing that would influence my purchase of any piece of audio gear is someone else's opinion of the sound. Reviewer or otherwise. Like someone telling me which wine or beer I should buy....
I'm thinking of spending for a pair of Hypex monoblocks soon. Could you please tell me your thoughts on the sound, and especially if you have compared them to ICEPower?
I've had tripath, spectron, and now hypex. In the past I have owned both tube and class a solid state amps. Once I found hypex, I have never looked elsewhere.
It all comes down to personal preference. Some like the tube sound, others don't. There is no right or wrong. I always get a kick out of the audio nazis who put other's choices down with their snobby attitude and need to justify their own preferences - as if their version of reality is the only valid interpretation.
If the "T" in your Class T stands for "Tripath" that is a Class D module, so your amp would be Class D. ARC and a few other manufacturers used this nomenclature for Tripath based amps.
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