I have some Crown XLS 1502's, and I am very happy with them. They replaced some 250 Watt Monoblocks that had toroidal transformer noise on one, and although they were quite nice in sound, they did not have the detail, the imaging stability, the sound staging, nor the tonal quality of the Crowns.
In all the forums, people like to push their own statistics, opinions . . . whatever, but it comes down to what is pleasing to your own ears. The first time I heard the Crowns were at a gentleman's house, who had the resources for any type of amps, speakers, etc. he wanted . . . and he had his speakers using the Crowns in an active system . . . and he was very well pleased.
This is not about pleasing everyone out there, unless you are in business to do so . . . then you will use all the propaganda, statistics, and advertising hype to sell your product; however, if you are the consumer -- in actuality, who are you buying the equipment for . . . to please you or the public; to make a statement of your status in life by the money you spend . . . or sitting down and caring less about the opinions of others, as you sit back and enjoy the fruit of your labors and the sweet sound of your favorite music.
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Hi @Jetter
That's a little off topic, but 3 different speaker designs. I use all of them in my HT.
2 of these designs are 2-way, one a center (also a 2-way). They're not commercial kits, so no one has the courage to blow cash on the parts. :-)
Plenty of good kits from Parts Express, Madisound and Meniscus. I encourage you to look there for ideas and kits with existing reviews.
Best,
E
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Erik, I may have missed it in another thread, but about how many pairs of and different configuration of pairs of speakers have you built?
Were they from the kits I see online? Seems like it might be fun, if they turned out OK which might not be the case for some of us.
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*G* Well, the JBLs' are 'pleasant'...'Perfect'?
Mmmm....no. If one desires an unobtrusive speaker pair that would have a potentially high WAF in a 'modern' or MCM living space...
They'd work. Will they rival SOTA?
They're over 50 years old....one would have to accept that. *S*
I'd seen and listened to them 'back then'; couldn't afford them at the time.
I've 'moved on'.....(Read your mail...) |
Oh, sorry, nothing that spectacular. I was thinking of using a slot to turn directional drivers into omnis.
While the concept is cool, I'm not convinced that in the living rooms I can afford omnis are going to be all that for me no matter what.
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?!.....*pause with bated breath*S* |
Now that gives me ideas!! :)
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...ran into a pair of these @ a 'vintage' MCM/modern furnishings store here.... https://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-Aquarius-IV-S109-Space-Age-Mid-Century-Modern-Speakers-White-Possible-toShip-/303205269560
"For sale?" No....only audiophiles seem to like them.... "*L* You're talking to one....but I don't blame you. The white ones' are on the rare side. Just curious, and I didn't think you'd want to part with them." Not to everyones' taste, but a 'pleasant sounding' JBL. Kind of an era omni in its' way. These were an 8~8.5/10, the white finish needed a touch-up cleaning and wax.. Nice to see an appreciated 'oldie'...*S* |
@wyoboy....& @robert53....Y'all are welcome. *S*
I wasn't aware of him at all....but now I am educated in what I avoided so ways ago....;) As for the album, hope it meets expectations.
T. Petty's passing left a void that stands to be filled and fulfilled....
...and as for the segway vid....dedicated to all of our fav trolls....*L*
...and I don't object to inclusion in that category... ;)....although honestly making the attempts at minimum to 'pointed entertainment'....however obscure....
*mock sigh* Bad habits & diehards....*G* |
@asvjerry thank you very much--wasn't aware he was putting forth an album. . and the comment on the following video also entertaining :) |
I enjoyed the video station break. |
And music, the waveform is “ really complex numbers “
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I am on my 3rd Pioneer Class D3 AV Receiver and LOVE the Sound as well as the efficiency and accuracy! My present AV Receiver is a Pioneer SC-LX701 |
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Oh, so to be clear, the phase angle of the impedance refers to the relationship of the voltage to current.
The phase angle of the output refers to timing.
The only thing they share is that impedance and output are complex numbers. That is, they have a magnitude and phase. None of those four numbers are equivalent. |
Ya do have to wonder about the obsession about phase and then throw it all away with 2nd order or worse or wire the midrange out of phase speakers...
it’s a system people... |
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Above all, everyone, I want to point out that I’ve made 1 claim. The impedance chart is being misused. There are several great ways to argue that Class D has a lot of phase shift. Show your work. Show the chart. Post specifics. Find a review, or data sheet. Instead we get personal attacks, conflagration of a number of possible Class D issues, but the people (person) who relies on that chart to begin with is completely unable to actually refute my claim. I welcome any and all sources of credible data (public review, manufacturer data sheet, etc.) which expand our knowledge here. |
Here we go, I added similar charts from a speaker simulator. See the bottom. You have both output and impedance for the same speaker charted. Both have phase angles. They are not the same chart. https://inatinear.blogspot.com/2020/02/class-d-amplifiers-do-not-have-horrible.htmlAlso, look at the phase angle for the output? I make damn good speakers. :) Others do too, but I am so proud of how well those two drivers integrated. |
Here's the problem, I have two charts. Both from the same source. Both clearly labelled.
Several people have used the first chart to claim it is the amplifier output phase chart. In fact, the actual amp phase is the second. Then George#3 (or 5?) rolls in and says that charts can't be trusted because (gobbledygook). So... if charts can't be trusted, why is he relying on the first one to make his point????
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I've seen that graph used on DIY and ASR to claim the same thing. Most of the stuff posted there is way over my head, I never post on those sites just read them so I was trying to figure out what the deal was with this graph and why is didn't mean what the guy was saying.
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into almost negative numbers Not almost, negative. When a voice coil is flying backward (relative to the now-changed drive signal), it is a generator of back emf. We can argue about how long it is out of phase, but the fact remains. Just agreeing and reinforcing what you said. You were too timid :-) Now, the practical question is "how well does the amp control the voice coil (aka damping)?" If its very, very good, this overshoot and negative emf will be less. Not zero, but less. No i have not measured - its very hard to do so with non-repetitive signals which is where the problems would likely lie. BTW i found the blog interesting but need to go backa nd think about what the (other party’s) original chart really meant. Unloaded? Hard to say what it is. Amps frankly are pretty easy if it weren’t for the damned loads :-) |
Somewhere out there is a person who is so concerned with this thread his digestion is in serious danger of shutting down.
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I meant ,misleading the way someone was trying to use the graph by saying ice 1200 modules had a frequency phase drop at 2khz.
@djones51 You are right. I just meant to say that the geek who put it together never intended it to say what is being claimed. I make a lot of plots, so I feel sympathy for having your data ripped off to mean something you never intended. :) |
I meant ,misleading the way someone was trying to use the graph by saying ice 1200 modules had a huge frequency phase drop at 2khz. |
Well jesskerry the best advice I can give is do as you say and don't post. |
What thinking human could care when the insensitivety to phase argument stands? If you want to bow down to measurements please design us the perfect amp. That doesn't waste power
like incandescent light bulbs.
And doesn't sound like dog waste.
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Because some of these
comparison modules are measured with/without their output filters insitu, and
the manufacturer has used Audio Precision "very high order" external “test
filtering” instead for the graphs, and/or the frequency knee of the output
filter they use if used, is totally different to the one it's being compared to
by the one doing the comparing, which will directly effect the amount of phase
shift down lower in the audio band as those of us all know.
@jesskerry I only know of one person who could put together such a long sentence that in the end is so convoluted that it cannot be proven or disproven. I would try to answer it, but it is the opposite of building an argument from parts that logically form a whole. Hahahaha. |
Not sure what jesskerry is on about I don’t consider myself to be anything other than trying to understand. Yet you were one of the first to to pat the OP (who has no idea) on the back in the other now deleted thread, without knowing as you say yourself " consider myself to be anything other than trying to understand" try to understand what I just posted above. Good one! it’s a no wonder I don’t post. |
@djones51
I don’t think the graph itself is misleading. It’s that is’ so very very rare. I have seen output impedance plots, rarely, but never one with phase also.
It’s truly something for the geeks.
Best,
E
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That helps, it's where I thought they were measuring and that's why the first graph was misleading they put the probes on the PCB. Not sure what jesskerry is on about I don't consider myself to be anything other than trying to understand. |
Yes, yes, I am a new here and only ever read these forums
usually for a laugh, and have posted this time because I feel the need to.
I'll post this once
just for the ignorance of those that believe all Class-D have the next to no
phase shift from the upper/mid right up to the highs. It has been quoted
to look at graphs of x Class-D as it "only" has x phase shift and
they used this to compare it to other Class-D modules. Some even being cheap
subwoofer modules used.
It's false, and those
here who “consider themselves” to be EE’s should know better, you know who you are and should lay low to
giving your tick of approval to this garbage.
Because some of these
comparison modules are measured with/without their output filters insitu, and
the manufacturer has used Audio Precision "very high order" external “test
filtering” instead for the graphs, and/or the frequency knee of the output
filter they use if used, is totally different to the one it's being compared to
by the one doing the comparing, which will directly effect the amount of phase
shift down lower in the audio band as those of us all know.
This thread is just plain bunkum.
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It may help to think of where the test probes are. For the first chart, the probes are:
Amplifier --> (+) Output Impedance (-) --> Speaker
For the second:
Amplifier --> Output Impedance --> (+) Speaker (-)
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Ok, thanks I have a hard time with these graphs of specs. |
The first graph is the phase response of the impedance the second graph is of the frequency. To be more precise: The second is the graph, both frequency and phase, of the entire amplifier. The first plot measures impedance, the second magnitude of the voltage. It is the difference between measuring a passive component and an active one. :) |
The first graph is the phase response of the impedance the second graph is of the frequency.
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@erik_squires
Thank you. As for the phase shift, datasheet for the modules in my previous class D amp (Icepower 200ASC) show about 18-30deg phase shift at 20kHz dependent on the impedance of the speaker. Every amplifier has some phase shift at 20kHz because of the limited bandwidth. My amp had bandwidth limit of 65kHz/-3dB but many amplifiers with even lower bandwidth, hence larger phase shift, are praised for wonderful and extended highs. Lamm ML3 that has only about 40kHz/-3dB limit was praised by Stereophile as "airy and extended on top". Yes, I understand that phase shift can suppress highs by improper summing of harmonics, but dynamic speakers at these frequencies have usually inductive character, meaning that they accelerate phase (that would also negatively affect treble). Perhaps such phase shift is not that bad or effect of it is so negligible (who can hear 20kHz) that we don’t even hear it. |
@kijanki
The values were picked at random. They aren't real. :) As I wrote, the point was not the values, but where the parts were. :)
E
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Shown values don't make any sense. 10uF would represent about 0.8 ohm capacitive reactance at 20kHz, while series resonance of 1mH and 10uF would be at 1.5kHz
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There's no way I would put a 10uF cap in parallel with a speaker!! :)
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It is important to note that output impedance chart varies from 5 milliohms to 50 milliohms, so the effect at worst case of the magnitude and angle of the impedance on the speaker are tiny, so the lower chart with the actual output should give a very good idea of how the amp would perform.
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I'm not worry about the small inductor, but the capacitor
parallel
to the speaker.
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@imhififan I wrote this: The actual values are irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion. I meant to say that I just picked whatever XSim uses for the defaults. Best, E |
1 mH sounds very very high, isn't it?
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@atmasphere Thanks for the vote of confidence!!
@imhififan Is that typical for a Class D stage??
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@erik_squires
Would you please Xsim with a 1mH inductor in series to your speaker and also with a 10uF capacitor parallel to your speaker and show us the result?
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@mapman
Ain't that the truth?
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When you throw the bait out in public you don’t get to decide which varmints will decide to bite. |
