It's all about sound, not how much it cost; when I got into "high end", I knew right off the bat I couldn't afford it, but I had to find one thing for sure; how do the various components sound in regard to Stereophile's classes, or ratings? In order to know this; I had to acquire the ability to identify "Stereophile's" class "A" class "B" and class "C" sounds, and the only way to do that was: first, subscribe to Stereophile, and next was to go to every high end audio salon within driving distance; there were 5 well stocked "high end" salons within driving distance. (Since I didn't take my wife, that created some problems)
After a few years of subscribing to Stereophile, plus auditioning equipment that Stereophile recommended, I knew the sound of those recommendations, and I absolutely concurred with them; "If you want to hear the music, you got to pay the piper". While that's true, it's possible to get class "A" sound with class "B" bucks or less.
At this moment, I am looking at 8 capacitors that cost $25 dollars each, plus 2 mono blocks with an instant resale value of 6K. Once I take the covers off and go in with my soldering iron, these mono blocks are worth a resell of O; my mission must be a success. After a successful mission, the resell is still 0; but those mono blocks will deliver class "A" or "A"+ sound, and that's some sweet music.
I have to visualize and hear music in my head before I can modify a component to deliver class "A" sound; but that's the only way for me to get what has become a necessity.
The pressure someone is under when they modify, is great, but the rewards are glorious. On these mono blocks, they are too small for the huge capacitors, therefore I have to figure a way to make the case larger. My reward is "sound" with absolutely no relation to money. I often wander if someone with a fat bankroll can identify the sound, or only how much they paid for each piece.
Dave, I thank you for your recommendations, and the only reason I'm not looking into them, is because my plate is full right now.
I just got a new cartridge, and you know what a b---h they are to install, plus the present project. I have discovered the way to progress in these endeavors is to pursue one at a time.
Just looking at this cartridge, and thinking about how fragile it is, plus the cost, makes me wonder if I'm not in my right mind to be in a hobby that requires the skill of a surgeon; is this a hobby?
I'm also building a table just for the turntable, which I have all the material cut out, but not assembled. Now that I have my list for the hardware store that will complete parts and assembly for these projects, I can proceed.
Yesterday, the parking lots were so crowded, that I drove around two of them and came back home. All was not a waste, I enjoyed the ride; Nancy Wilson, and Anita O'Day made for such wonderful company that I took the long way home.
This is one of the best threads ever! Thanks to all. I'm quite fortunate to have a dedicated listening space and a wife who has no problem with my audio obsession. I've become fascinated with the subject of DIY room treatment and am learning a lot as I experiment. Talk about great ROI. :)
Orpheus10, have really enjoyed this thread and the dialog between you, Dave and others. Thanks!
I believe one can get the most from their system regardless of 'class' by having a dedicated room, paying attention to supplying quality power, employing room treatment, equipment isolation and placement, vibration control and other tweeks. All of this has been done in my system, most via DIY. I spend greater effort in optimizing the sound I am getting from my equipment than upgrading. For the moment I continue to play with room treatment.
If my system is not class B, it surly sounds to me that way, based on those far more costly (some class A) that I have listened to in B&M shops.
Helomech, I never thought of the rating system in that fashion, but that is a very good analogy. Class "C" will get you from here to there, but not in luxury, or exceedingly fast.
Class "B" is most desirable, and can get you from here to there, very fast, and in a degree of luxury that would be quite comfortable.
While Class "A" would put a grin on any Audiophile's face, most certainly, all Audiophile's would not be able to afford it.
I tend to compare audio classes to automotive classes.
One can spend $400K on a Lambo Aventador and take a very fast, thrilling drive around the Nurburgring, or someone can buy a $100K Nissan GTR, and get similar numbers. The drive is just as thrilling, but in a different way. Invariably, some will prefer the GTR over the Lambo and vice versa.
Class A speakers come in a wide cost range. $1200 for some KEF LS50s and $200,000 for the Wilson Alexandria.
To me, Class A means that if these speakers were cars, they'd both be capable of putting huge grins on the faces of most drivers. The KEF LS50 being the Nissan GTR of the speaker world, and the Wilsons being a Bugatti Veyron.
Then you have Class B components. These might be compared to a BMW M5 or Corvette Z06. Different rides for different tastes, but both can be highly enjoyable. They're just a few horsepower short of some of the best, but few, if any automotive magazine editors would dare call them slow.
Class C components: these might be a Ford Focus ST or VW Golf R. Again, almost any automotive editor would consider these fun to drive, but of course a Ferrari F50 would blow them off the road.
Thats's how I think Stereophile intends their Class ABCD system to be considered. It's intended to help listeners narrow down which components they might want to test drive.
Dave, truer words were never spoken; each man has to find his own "Holy Grail" when it comes to cartridges; "Grado" is the poor man's "Koetsu"; that's part of my "Holy Grail".
Where we are now, is the common ground; while we might take different paths, we're all trying to reach the same destination, which is why I'm glad I wound up where we are, in regard to room treatment.
"I’m going to take my own medicine and go with what I know; "Koetsu" if I’m ever in that position."
o, if there ever was a category completely ruled by subjectivity according to sonic taste and system synergy, it is that of cartridges. There are so many great ones out there that it is indeed daunting to pick one, and, subsequent to that, a never ending journey seeking the opitmal associated equipment to enhance its ability to deliver sonic bliss. The elusive Holy Grail of audio.
Erik, it's good to hear that. These big name brands evolve over the years from their "signature sound", therefore an audition is absolutely necessary before you buy.
Some thoughts on "Stereophile's" classification system; they rest their foundation on that, while people might criticize, if they found something truly substantial wrong with the ratings, that would be a black eye for the magazine.
Sometime a component will rate "B" in one issue, and "C" in the next issue, and then return to "B". This means that component is "borderline B", and from my experience, is always a good buy; consequentially, I will quite often own that component. Good buys are rare in the high end.
The widest range of products exist in Class "A"; that is also where you can find the widest range of prices. "Koetsu" is the only really high priced high end cartridge I have ever auditioned, and it was magnificent. I don't recall which one, but I'm glad I remembered that because there are other cartridges in Class "A" that get recommended more, and I was considering one of them without ever having heard it.
That's an option we are faced with far too often; I'm going to take my own medicine and go with what I know; "Koetsu" if I'm ever in that position.
I will do my best to offer advice on components I know about that have been rated by "Stereophile". This is not a recommendation for the magazine, just a point of reference that we both can relate to.
No one understands better than me, about audiophiles with limited "pocketbooks", and I have no problem admitting it. Now to go along with that problem; "How are you going to audition the thing", is another problem. One option I can think of, is to buy a lesser priced model used, and sell it back for what you paid for it. You can usually rely on the current "signature sound"; that is the most important element in cartridges.
Dave, I appreciate your advice; I'm going to purchase enough material to make a batch of them, and experiment on wall placement. With something like this, I've discovered nothing beats experimentation, plus good observation and record keeping.
A successful mission of this nature requires attention to detail and "patience".
I'm sure anyone who's following what we're doing will enjoy their music ever so much more after completion of this project, I know I will.
If you look closely at that DIY article that you linked, it gives the absorption coefficients at different frequencies for those 3 types of rigid board products. They are different at 125hz and 250hz. You might want to try to get a good handle how your room sounds in these frequencies and pick the one that best suits your desires in those ranges, if you have a choice on which you can buy locally.
Also, author says that he used 1"X2" furring strips for the frame but he also says that the Roxul he selected was "softer and has a less regular shape" that the others. I used 1" X 3" board with the Owens Corning rigid fiberglass and added some wooden corner supports inside the frame behind the panel for rigidity.
Randy, I own Audible Illusion and CJ PV-12. The AI is class A, while the PV-12 is class B. Both are tube, and both sound good; the short answer is size and quality of the "sound stage"; the AI is more definitive and has a larger sound stage. They are also on opposite ends of the sonic spectrum; one is neutral while the other has a certain "tube glow". Class A contains a very wide quality range, as well as price range; however, it's pointless to buy one expensive piece if you can not afford to buy all the expensive pieces in the chain, because a chain is no stronger than it's weakest link.
I've heard incredible top of the line ARC, especially in regard to definition, but it's too lean for my taste, almost like SS, and I prefer "Primaluna" which can come close to ARC with the right tubes. There are a number of different factors in regard to Class "A" sound, and now I'm speaking of the same components that have earned the Class "A" rating; that is why you have many decisions to make before you plunk down a large wad of cash; such as tube, or SS, and all the things you prefer in a pre-amp. I don't know how you go about making all those decisions, but they are necessary.
Randy, I've done that many many times; Class "A" is quite often infinitely more expensive than Class "B". While you can mix and match components to come up with Class "B" sound; to come up with Class "A" sound, you must have all Class "A" components plus what we are doing as best we can; to have that done by experts. Class "A" is a "SOUND" as well as components that are given that rating.
While it's possible to occasionally find an affordable Class "A" component, (I always buy if I can use it) it's not the usual case.
You can get lucky on "amps" and "pre-amps" in regard to affordable class "A".
In regard to class "B"; it's my favorite class because some of the components are almost Class "A", and I can pay for them; the word "afford" is no longer in my vocabulary.
Class "A" cartridges and turntables are out of most people's reach.
randy-11 makes a good point. The latest digital EQ technology is a great solution for bass correction if you don’t have an analog source (ie TT) that would do not want converted to digital. I would still deal with basic reflection issues using acoustical absorption treatments for best results.
BTW, o, Michaels, Hobby Lobby, and Walmart all have the supplies you should need to make "pillows".
As I stated much earlier, I had to go to a professional building supply warehouse to get the 2" thick dense fiberglass board recommended in the article you linked. Be sure to wear sufficient body covering, gloves, and a respirator when handling this stuff once out of the packaging until you get it completely covered with fabric.
Now I'm gathering material for This DIY panel. There was a fabric store right around the corner, but it left during the last slowdown; how many slowdowns have we had?
I should be able to get the rest of the stuff from "Home Depot".
The best solutions are free ones, even if they are self-deprecating.
I would first have tried leaving the drapes up (glass is almost always the enemy of good sound so all of my windows in my listening room are blocked off with drywall) and experimenting with DIY acoustical damping on the opposite wall to see how that sounded.
If you (and your wife, for predictably different reasons) are happy with removing the drapes, then problem solved!
When I noticed the left channel, right channel disparity, it was over two years ago. First I corrected it by simply turning the left volume higher. Not satisfied with that, I went through a year of trouble shooting to find nothing wrong, but I still had the same problem.
After discussing it on this thread, it became apparent that it was room acoustics, and the solution must be to install sound absorbing panels on the right side of the room.
Just an hour ago, while I was trying to verify the cause of the problem, I removed the drapes from the patio door that make up the left side of the room; perfect balance. Why didn't I see that before? Although that's perfect balance, it's too hard, and I still have to install a panel on the right side of the room, because who wants to be exposed at night.
My point is, all I had to do in the beginning, was to remove the drapes in order to verify the problem and the solution.
Power cords are fixed. When I had my MFA tube gear significantly updated by Scott Frankland, he suggested to me that my money would be much better spent on capacitors, etc, rather than experimenting with power cords.
He replaced the original power cords with some very heavy duty stuff. Cables include Grover Huffman IC's and speaker wires. And, most recently, I've been experimenting with DIY 12awg magnet wire , some 10 awg Belden wire for speaker cables, a vintage pair of MIT 750 music hose, as well as "cult faves" vintage Western Electric 16 awg mated with Belden microphone cable for IC's. I've tried silver IC's but they don't work well in my current system.
I've yet to settle on a favorite combo, being more concerned with optimizing the position of the SF Cremona Auditor M's. Those speakers are quite revealing in my system and in my room. If anything I'm hearing "too much" detail. :)
I have a 20 amp dedicated power line.
I hung some curtains today which made an immediate improvement in overall smoothness of HF. Proper room treatment seems to be the most important thing I can do at this point. And I will. :)
ptts: Thanks for your suggestion re: the Cardas formula. Unfortunately, in my small, dedicated listening space, George’s formula, aesthetically and practically-speaking, are not viable.
RE: treating the room. Fortunately, I already have two columns of ASC traps which reach almost to my 8’ ceilings, and I will proceed from there- using DIY absorption panels and window drapes. In spite of wall-to-wall carpeting, my system seems excessively bright. I’m running seriously good tube gear and Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M speakers.
I’ve archived and printed Dave’s info regarding his DIY panels. Thank you sir.
If I have in any way derailed this thread, please accept my apologies. It surely was not my intention.
You guys are great to hang with. Thank you gentlemen.
I thought that the prices might get your attention. It can easily cost $5-10K to correctly/completely treat a room with ASC products.
Correcting your immediate problem may be as simple as placing absorptive panels on your right wall. As you say, I would talk to the experts at ASC before setting your CC ablaze. You could try craft quilt batting from Walmart covered with cloth or even a couple of memory foam pillows (more absorption) at the first reflection point (centered at tweeter/ear height halfway between your speaker’s front baffle and your listening position) on your right wall to see what happens.
Effective bass wave attenuation is harder and much more expensive unless you build your own.
Like you said Dave "They ain't cheap". I know they work, but it's for sure I should call and chat for awhile. My problem on the surface, or what it appears to be, is a more powerful right channel, but I know it's the room acoustics causing the problem.
I can correct it by turning the left volume higher than the right, but I don't think I'm getting as good of a sound stage as I would by correcting the problem.
It seems that everyone has had the bass problem they corrected by installing "front corner traps"; now that I have a more complex problem, I want to make sure that I spend money effectively.
After looking at the prices, my "DIY" mind is working overtime.
"The diameter of the Tube Trap, not the length determines the low frequency cutoff. Only Tube Traps have built-in diffusive reflection panels to maintain ambience control. Tube Traps work best in areas where there is heavy bass, such as the corners of the room."
If I recall correctly, the full-round ASC products have an absorptive material over half the outer surface and a reflective material over the other half, such that rotating them will provide different tuning effects. Seems that this might be key to optimal tuning or even bass wave absorption?
I'm going to start with the half round 4ft tube trap to get an idea how they work; after that I'll look for way's to DIY or roll your own, so to speak; that's our objective.
Once we put all these brilliant minds to work, we'll have perfect rooms in no time
Find the place where you want your speakers and seat (review Cardas for basic guide), get out a 2 x 3 mirror, and experiment with diffussors and absorbtion--. Know that bass traps are necessary in corners; and enjoy finding perfection.........
Will one of you erudite people please start that other thread titled "room treatments?" :)
I’m reconfiguring my dedicated listening space and finally, after years of procrastination, am finally ready to do more than place a couple of tube traps in the corners of the front wall. :)
I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I'm eager to learn!
That's quite a compliment and also a very kind way to get your thread back on track. I am afraid that I have exhausted my knowledge of acoustical treatments here already.
I will be happy to try to answer any questions that anyone might have. Feel free to pm me.
Dave, I'm so curious about those room treatments, that I think we should start another thread titled "Room Treatments" in order to get more ideas on that subject. If you start one, I'll be one of your loyal followers.
Orpheus, that’s fair enough. I agree room acoustics are atleast as important as the equipment sitting inside the room. Because my listening room is also my lounge/dining room & the location of my system, adding room treatments in my situation is very difficult. Though I’m fortunate that my loft apartment has good acoustics to begin with (with my combination of soft furnishings, rug, timber venetians & open hardwood stairs.
Though if I decide to invest in room treatment products in future, I would go for either acoustic panels which can have photos or artwork printed on them such as RW Acoustics or Stillpoints Aperture panels, or take a more minimalist approach & install a set of Franck Tchang’s excellent Acoustic Resonators.
When I one day move into a new house, I will setup a dedicated listening room with a floating floor, dedicated 20a lines & either SMT or ASC products, or a combination of some of some of the above products. They are really the class of the field.
Melbguy1, I was using Stereophile's rating system as a means to communicate levels of audio quality that was represented by names like ARC, CJ, and Naim, to name a few. I'm glad you brought up something that I was unaware of, but this thread is not about "Stereophile", only those levels of audio quality.
Since "High end salons" no longer exist, we're having a problem communicating those levels of sound. I hope those who don't have them stamped on their brain, will have some confidence in me, and those who know what they mean will help me communicate to those who don't. There are so many different "sonics" that qualify, no matter what your preference, it's possible to find it in Class "A".
Presently we're into "room acoustics", which is an area often overlooked. Never have I been in a high end salon that didn't have them all over the place. Maybe you know of some that haven't been mentioned.
The Stereophile rating system has become a joke since John Atkinson took over as Editor. That rating system used to mean something when Gordon Holt was in charge. Back then, Stereophile was dedicated to serious high end gear regardless of cost, and only the best equipment earned the vaunted Class A rating. Now NAD and Marantz components are deemed Class A. The fact they had to invent Class+ after realizing how ludicrous it was to publish actually good high end gear alongside NAD, Sony etc only proves that. There are still good staff there, but it’s just another money making business now.
Viridian, the closest to creating the experience you described is in a movie theater; a listening room is a long way from a movie theater.
I had a Phase Linear 4 channel, that was interesting; it created some ambiance, and had features like a "dynamic range expander", that did just that; but when it comes to accurately recreating music, I prefer the way were going, which requires a lot of expertise, but it can't be beat in the small area of a listening room.
Until we complete the journey were on, we wont know how far we can go. I'm enjoying the ride in the meantime.
Do the best audio equipment designers use other manufacturers’ equipment as a benchmark for the sound of their own designs or it is live music?
I don’t think that the best audio reproduction is that far away from the real thing. More likely that the process of (and techniques employed when) using microphones for recording and multi-step mixing and mastering make this goal seem unobtainable. The best recordings/masterings played on good equipment in the an acoustically-improved room sound eerily lifelike. However, I have never heard a two channel system that will properly recreate realistic spatial reproduction of a crowd clapping during a live performance (microphones are omni-directional).
Many ways to skin a cat. I am honestly happy that you are pleased with your bass traps. Really.
I agree that Acoustic Sciences Corporation (ASC) is among the best out there:
"I do recommend ASC if you are not a do-it-yourselfer and have the cash."
No doubt that the ASC products designed for your or my room and installed/tuned by their experts would put mine to shame. I just didn’t/don’t have $3-$10k to spend.
Dave, I don't mean to be contrary, but no matter how enjoyable, a trip to the concert hall, or hearing sparkling voices singing in a large beautiful church is, you are dealing in the realm of impossibility (or close to it) in regard to creating this in your listening room.
In regard to DIY and room acoustics, the first thing is "define" what the room treatment has accomplished that makes your listening experience so much more pleasurable. Although our "bass traps" look as different as night and day, they both trap standing waves.
Notice how those tubes resemble "rug cores". That is just one example of DYI in regard to room acoustics. The improvements delivered by correcting room acoustics are astounding; they are like night and day when compared with, and without.
No Dave, you haven't "hijacked" my original thread, which is basically about achieving "Class "A" sound as cheap as possible. More correctly you have re-directed it to room acoustics, which might yield more improvement in audio than some other things.
Those room treatments in the link above are stunning, and they work. There may be ways to duplicate them if funds are not in hand to purchase them.
Glad to help. I love cables too, but I found it hard to choose cabling with my room acoustics out of whack.
I did a lot of research on room acoustical treatments and consulted with several vendors. It was going to cost a lot of money. Then, I became so frustrated with that idiot Ethan Winer crashing my threads trying to convince me to buy enough of his treatments to cover every square inch of my walls that I simply built my own based on Jon Risch's recommendations.
More is definitely not better here. I even have several DIY panels left over because they overdamped the sound in my room. I have two bass traps (one in each corner behind the speakers) and two side panels, each at the first reflection point on either side wall and that's it. YMMV.
I do recommend ASC if you are not a do-it-yourselfer and have the cash.
Dave: Thank you for your response to my questions. I’ve been at this hobby for many years. One of the greatest joys (besides the music of course) is that I keep learning. One of the biggest variables that I’ve neglected to some extent, is the room itself. For example, and in retrospect, all the fiddling with cables I've done was not the most effective way to spend my time and money. :)
This is a very enjoyable/educational thread- thanks to all who have contributed. Paul
Dave, I had just gotten into the high end and I had to buy some of the components I auditioned, plus all the other stuff one considers a necessity after getting into the high end; I wasn't wasting any one's time. But what I did then is impossible now, because there aren't enough high end salons.
I have no idea how someone starting out can know, or hear in their heads the differences in the classifications of sound. Yes it matters because Class "A" sound yields so much more satisfaction; it's not a status thing if you're a very serious music lover.
Without a doubt, most of it is far too expensive for the average person to afford, but as you pointed out, class "B" is a lot cheaper and can come so close to "A" that it's hard to tell the difference.
Tech-talk is the forum for someone with a beer pocket book and champagne taste, because there are ways to accomplish this, and one does not have to be a technician, but you have to learn how to solder, and if you're a fumble fingers, know your limitations.
Presently I'm in that phase you're in, dealing with "room acoustics". Before I attempted to build my speaker, I went to the library and read everything I could find on crossovers.
When I went to the engineer, I impressed him with my knowledge and was able to communicate what I wanted. Believe me, those people don't like to waste time if you don't know what you want. I mentioned that to let anyone who is serious about getting the best audio possible without the champagne pocket book, know that it requires work.
The library is no longer necessary, I have "google". The first step is to find what "google" knows about room acoustics; combine that with your experiences and go from there. Room acoustics is very scientific, no smoke and mirrors, that's why those rug cores, which were very tall cylinders that allowed the bass frequencies to enter but not leave, worked.
I enjoy communicating with someone who is as precise as you Dave.
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