Class "A" sound, as related to Stereophile.

Dave, I don't know what I would do without your help, I am in completely foreign territory. Now, each record is different; some are perfect, and some not so perfect; this is before I've added any diffusion. Today, a phono amp is coming, so I will evaluate after I've tried it.

Thank you much, and don't forget to;


Enjoy the music.

Thanks a bunch for your help Dave; I'll talk to them Monday.

Enjoy the music.

Dave, I hope you're still out there somewhere. Here is the most ironic thing about this thread; I opened it talking about modifications, and although I have everything to do the "mod", I haven't started yet; I'm still working on room treatment, that's what I want to ask you about.

Everything sounds good, but I need a good "diffusor" on the left side of the room, and I was wondering which one you think is best?


Thank you.

I had no idea room treatment was so important before now. Let me explain; I had a room imbalance, my right channel seemed to be louder than the left.

The first thing I did was increase the volume in the left channel, but something was still wrong. Check Pre; it's OK. Check amp; it's OK. Check speakers; they're OK. I don't know what else to check?

Now I know you know how much of a headache it was to check all of that in each one of those components.

Not until I took the steps outlined in this thread did I get a "balanced" sound-stage, plus a number of other problems solved that were always on the "back-burner".

If you haven't gotten involved in room treatment, I suggest you go through the part of this thread involving room treatment and be surprised.


Enjoy the music.

 

Dave, I always like to mention everything anyone does to improve my enjoyment of this hobby in any way, and what suggestion of theirs that I heeded, which made my life easier.

"The digital gauge is much better and less likely to damage your stylus than the see-saw gauge. Make sure that the one you bought is non-magnetic."


It must have been a very long time ago when I bought that " teeter totter" as you called it instrument for measuring stylus tracking force, because I don't remember having any problem at all with it; but now, it's just too shaky for these fumble fingers.

I bought a "Riverstone Audio" digital pressure gauge that was perfect, and so much easier. I checked the VTF with this gauge, and discovered it was too heavy; after re-calibrating the force to a lighter one, I could hear my cartridge thank me, and I thank you for the suggestion.


Enjoy the music.

Dave, if this much sounds that good, what will a little more sound like? I got the answer to that question just a few minutes ago; "Horrible"! This treatment will let you know in a hurry when you have done something wrong, and the good thing is, it doesn't cost much.

After adding too much absorption in the corners, everything sounded horrible, that means I've got enough absorption for sure; now to work on the diffusors.


Thanks again for the brilliant ideas.

Stringeen, I only listened to Class "A" in emporiums that had room treatment up the "Ying Yang", and I was never disappointed. However I have listened to Class "A" rigs in homes that did not deliver Class "A" sound, I attributed that to the inexperience of the audiophile.

I recall a complete top of the line ARC electronics setup, with Theil speakers that was riveting, sounds that I hadn't been aware of, were emanating from "Santana Abraxas", my favorite album for 20 years, and they were clear and quite audible, plus they were coming from a stationary point in space; this was all in a high end emporium.

I was pressed for time when I visited an audiophile with a Class "A" rig, and couldn't help discover why he wasn't getting Class "A" sound, and I noticed a patchwork quilt choice of interconnects. I am a firm believer in uniformity of interconnects, that's because I see so many different philosophies in regard to the best. So many different, competing ideas, can not come out right.

I make all my own interconnects out of the same wire, except where something special is required, like Phono for example. I realize rolling your own is not for everyone, but they can still achieve "uniformity".

The places I went to had CJ and ARC, so you could arrange these two polar opposites however you chose, that guaranteed you getting the sound you wanted. Those places no longer exist in my neck of the woods.

I know exactly what you mean by "your room"; well I've got good news for you String, I just made a "giant step" without changing one component, and I still can't quite believe it.

Although I've been listening all morning, I still can't quite believe it; my room is filled up with beautiful sound, and I thought I was going to have to get some new big speakers to achieve this. Follow this part of the thread on "room treatment" and be amazed at the result.

Best of luck.

Dave, the "sound stage" is really taking shape in my room; for the first time, it's spread across the front of the room like it's supposed to be; not favoring the left or right side.


Bwaslo, I've got a really ugly temporary absorption panel in the back of the room, and that would be a good place to try your diffusor. Thanks for the idea.

Dlcockrum, I just happened to think of something funny; while my wife was always worried about other women then, now she laughs when I threaten to see other women.


Life is strange that way.


Enjoy the music.

Dicockrum,  I spent a number of years going to " high end salons" and discovering what it was all about.  So much so that my wife swore I was seeing another woman; after all, what red blooded male would spend that much time listening to music.

That was when such places existed.  Contrary to almost everyone else, I found their evaluations to be valid, although I never auditioned "A"+.    Class "B" is tricky when a component fluctuates from "B" to "C", but that component is always a good buy.

System synergy can put a component in another class.

An example of two components that didn't sound alike, but the top line of both was class "A", are CJ and ARC.   I learned a lot, and had a lot of fun with other Audiophiles during those years,  but you can understand a wife's disbelief.


Enjoy the music.

Noromance, I did industrial soldering, including aerospace for a living. Although you're right in most cases, in this case, the component case is not big enough to accommodate these huge capacitors, and I will have to expand it.

Although these caps are not as expensive as the Jupiter, they're just as big.

Have you compared Jupiter with V- Cap?

In this case I see no point in even considering resell. What I will be able to consider is whether or not to use Jupiter or V-cap the next time.


Enjoy the music.

Randy, there was a guy begging me to come over and evaluate his system. Finally I found the time and went over; before the review, he pointed out a lot of "Class A components"; his rig looked like an add out of Stereophile. After listening for awhile, I knew something was wrong, but didn't have the time to find out what.

It was for sure those name components could have produced better sound, but my only option was to tell him how grand his rig sounded, and what an enjoyable evening I had listening to it.

Since I didn't have the time to help him, I left him with a big "Cheshire Grin" on his face; yes, the price of the components influence the sound one is hearing.


Enjoy the music.

Jafant, I believe your fears have good foundation.

It's nice to know someone else has discovered those ratings to be valid, at least in class "A". When I went on a mission to verify those ratings was sometime ago, it was when high end salons existed; now, I couldn't do it, and I don't see how anyone else can.


Enjoy the music.

Audioman58, I would like more information on that; is it good enough for resell? Not that it matters a great deal.

Nichicon Gold are some good Electrolytics. It was 10 years ago when I changed all my Electrolytics that weren't too big, to "Blackgate's"; which are no longer available.

When you get the incredible degree of improvement we get from these "Mods", who cares about resell.


May all your "Mods" be successful.

gs5556, I never change any value one iota, I'm not an engineer; but thanks for the tip.

Viridian, this whole "A" "B" "C" thing is foolishness if you can not afford Class "A".

I spent years subscribing to "Stereophile" and spending time in high end salons. After reading "Recommended components" I went and compared the "sound" of the component" and other components in that class; you will not get class "B" sound for Class "C" money. Now there are many different sounds in all the classes, and for that reason you might prefer a class "C" component over a class "B" component.

I just ordered a cartridge that's class "B", but costs more than another similar cartridge that's also Class "B". I'm not buying these components because they're Class "B"; I'm buying them because they sound good. If I could afford Class "A", I would buy Class "A"; not because it's "Class "A" but because of the spectacular sonics. If I could get Class "A" sound for Class "C" money, I would buy it all.

One of the best examples I can think of at the moment is "ARC" and Conrad Johnson; two different sounds when both are class "A".

Compare CJ PV12, and CJ PV10; both are CJ but PV12 sounds better; while both sound good, one costs more than the other although they both make Class "B"; that means buy the one you can afford, but money is the boss denominator. Many people have them both is why I gave that example. In the end, I'm not buying class "B", I'm buying Class "B" sound; if it was free and delivered that sound, I would really go for that.

I don't get the connection between a "synergistic" system and the different classes of sound?

Tomcy6, in regard to swapping in and out, that reminds me of when I was hanging out at a top "Audio Salon"; me and the guys were grooving on an all reference Audio Research system with top of the line Thiel speakers, when a customer came in wanting to audition an Adcom amplifier. Now Adcom is good "affordable" equipment, but it's not "ARC". That Adcom just smoked the groove.

My point in telling this, is that you have to have all top of the line in the audio chain, one piece wont do it; if you don't think you can swing 100%, one piece is a waste of money. Of course you will get some improvement, but not nearly what you paid for. A chain is no stronger than it's weakest link; we just had one weak link in a class "A" chain and it smoked the sound, relative to what we had been hearing.

Don't get me wrong "Adcom" makes very good gear, but it doesn't cost as much, or sound as good as  ARC.

I have never experienced "spectacular" synergy, only what reading and common sense got me.


Enjoy the music.

Viridian, I'm familiar with Naim electronics, but not Linn speakers. Naim is among top of the line electronics, Linn speakers evidently cost less. I have never experienced "synergy" that saved a bundle of money, but synergy is important. In the example you gave, I know about Naim, but not Linn. Could you give an example with "Polk" speakers, they're good but relatively inexpensive speakers.

I have a standard, the same as everybody else on this forum; some guys were discussing 20K tone arms; by now I assume you know that's too rich for my blood, but I settle for Class "B" sound as cheap as I can get it.

Since I have skilled hands, I can get class "B" sound from a Class "C" turntable; I think you were in a discussion of that nature; it's what mods are about.

I'm not trying to sell a magazine, it's just that aspect of the magazine I found to be generally valid.


Enjoy the music.

Tomcy6, you are absolutely correct; what I did then, driving to high end audio salons and listening to many of the components that were reviewed and rated, would be impossible now. As you stated; presently, I'm no different than anyone living in the "boonies" because those high end salons are gone.

How anyone is supposed to achieve this "synergy" Viridian is talking about is a mystery to me. I "lucked" upon it one time, and I can't even remember that.

Whatever the situation, you can only play the cards you got, not the ones you wish you had.

Viridian, assuming "synergy" is the gospel truth, how is one suppose to discover it?


 

In regard to "cartridges" do not depend on advice from anyone. They are far too expensive to get the wrong one for you. You must first go through a process of discovery; that is auditioning different cartridges, and you choose from the family of cartridges that's most conducive to the music you like.

My advice is stay away from records as far as you can get, if you don't have any; however, if you got money to blow, meaning a fat bank account, have fun.


Enjoy the music.

Viridian, there is no doubt about source first; I'm an electronics tech, that's what I did until I retired. Source first is a fact from a "scientific" point of view. The preamp takes what you give it, makes it bigger, passes that to the amp, which gives it to the speaker. If you gave the pre "crap" it's going to give bigger "crap" to the amp which gives fat "crap" to the speaker; some people claim that fat crap sounds good if it comes out of the right speaker.

With cartridges your only option, since you can't audition the cartridge, is to pay careful attention to the music the reviewer is using. If he likes the cartridge when using the (same music) you like, that's a good bet.

I wont even mention the cartridge I like, because it gets bad press on most from this forum, and I can understand that because type of music determines the cartridge best for whoever is buying it. Relative to everything else, the front end is expensive, if it's to be a good one, even when you make it better with "tweaks", the good tweaks aren't cheap.

Sota Star Saphire is my favorite. 1K in tweaks can give you a Rega P-3 that will run with the big dogs, like the Sota Star Saphire; that's a big dog in my league any way; No Great Dane's in my league.


Enjoy the music.

Al, unless somebody just invented a digital preamp, I'm not aware of such a critter.  No matter what the source, it's analog to the preamp; that's the only way it works;  have you heard of a DAC; that stands for Digital to Analog Converter; but "fat crap" sounds good to some people, especially when you crank the bass to make it even fatter.

Al, the purpose of the phono is to bring the signal to line level; while a hot signal can come off the CD, it's not supposed to, because there is nothing to control volume inside the PC. The only difference this makes is that the signal is louder, not better.

The quality of the preamp is determined by how precisely it amplifies the signal it gets from the phono or CD. The quality of phono varies a great deal more than CD; that could be good or bad. When we considered BIC, Gerrard, and Dual as good TT's; they were not as good as CD; but when the expensive cartridges and TT's that are currently discussed, are used, the signal is better than CD.

That signal requires an expensive pre and amp. I think what Viridian was saying, is that he only has so many "bundles" of money; when the cartridge costs one bundle, the TT another Bundle, by the time he gets through with those bundles of money, plus bundles for the pre and amp, he can't buy as high a quality speaker as he would like; therefore he chooses a less costly speaker because he has a perfect signal all the way up to the speaker, and moderate speakers will sound good when they are presented with a perfect signal.

An expensive perfect speaker will not compensate for a bad signal, it will do what it is supposed to do, which is to turn the electronic signal it gets into audio whether that signal is good or bad; that sums up both sides of the equation, and I side with Veridian.

Koestner, take me to your source; the source of what ever made you say that. That thing called a volume control on the preamp that you turn up or down sets the level to the amp. But I know you knew that. If you turn it up, the speakers get loud, and down, they get quiet.

Thank you very much Dicockrum, I don't know how I got locked into speakers costing thousands of dollars. That just goes to show what happens when there are no more places to see, hear and compare different speakers. I might try some of those; if you see any that you think can be sold for what I paid, I would appreciate it if you let me know.



Enjoy the music.

Dicockrum, I have stated consistently, "You can not play the cards you wish you had, you have to play what's dealt" after all is said and done, I have never been able to buy the speakers I wish I had, therefore I have to settle for what I consider is sufficient.

If I had an unlimited budget, I wouldn't have to have that argument with myself, but adequate speakers, and close to top of the line electronics work best for me.

In my listening room, the right channel is favored, I have to turn the left channel up louder than the right because of "room acoustics". When the source is 2 track reel, that problem is corrected.

Enjoy the music.

I have custom speakers, and I had the crossover engineer to pattern my crossovers after Thiel. I chose the drivers and put them together.

While you can go to "Parts Connection" and put together some good speakers, if you want speakers just for you, a crossover engineer is required.

I have no idea what so ever, how my speakers compare to others; it has been just that long since I heard other "audiophile quality" speakers, and I'm dying to hear other good speakers.

I have 70 watt Primaluna Mono Blocks, they're tube, as I guess all Primaluna are. My listening room is average, not big or small. As far as preferences, as long as they fit the technical requirements they're fine. If any one has any other recommendations I will appreciate them.


Thank you.

Let me tell you guys about my present speakers; they are 3 way; heil air motion tweeter, 6 inch mid, 12 inch woofer 92 DB efficient, they reproduce the electronics without any sonic signature of their own; the better the electronics, the better the sound of the speakers, which I assume is the case with any speaker. Any change of anything will instantly be detected, because you will hear the sonic characteristics of the change.

Although I don't have any complaints. (can't complain if you haven't heard anything else for ages; speakers are not wives, they're meant to be changed)

Thiels are one of the last speakers I liked. BTW I absolutely do not recommend custom speakers because of complications in regard to cabinet, but speaker kits are fine.


Happy listening

I just discovered something today; this is not a "hobby" for me, although I can't think of any other word. If it was a hobby for me, I would want to do, what reviewers do for a living; they review equipment forever.

Today, I was listening to me Technics 2 track reel to reel, and enjoying the music, while at the same time evaluating my speakers. The sound stage was perfect; although the speakers were in sight, there didn't seem to be any music emanating from them; they seemed to be some kind of decorations for the room.

The sound stage just magically appeared and had nothing that would connect it to the speakers; it was as if the electronics had magically turned into audio, because I couldn't define the sound in any kind of way that related it to a speaker.

This is what I set out to get, and this is what I got.

Music with the 2 track as the source was superior to anything else in my room; a record I bought in 1974, and just about wore out, that had been recorded on tape, revealed sounds I never heard before.

I had to go to the basement for something, and I still could hear Carmen McRae through the floor and she sounded good.

While I was contentedly listening to music, I fell asleep in my listening chair (sometime I can't get to sleep in bed) When I woke up, I asked myself, "Do I really want a new speaker?" The answer is no, but I must hear some more speakers.

You have good taste Viridian, but I already knew that.

My crossover is a 3-way, 4th order crossover, T-Type; but I didn't design it.  A very eccentric engineer designed it.  This was quite awhile ago, before computers were as common as they are now, and I watched him work with a computer that had "solid" geometric shapes in color; a cone was one of them, and they had numbers on them.  He was using two dials that merged these shapes how ever he wanted to engage them.

I have never seen anything like that before, or since.

While I know you would be able to put it together, it took me forever to get a cabinet that looked decent.  If you can't hire a cabinet maker, don't even think about it,


Enjoy the music.

Viridian, as I recall, back in the day, Altec was one of my favorites along with Klipsch.


            http://www.klipsch.com/products/la-scala-ii-floorstanding-speaker



            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs7YlqUSH1k


Enjoy the music.

Dave, I told the engineer I liked Thiel speakers; as I stated he was eccentric, after I picked out the drivers, he designed the crossover. As an example of his eccentricity; I told him I was going to change the value of a capacitor, and he told me he would crack my knuckles if I did; I left the capacitor alone.

If you know the design of a Thiel speaker crossover, you're quite a technician. I'm sure you could build your own speaker, just make sure you got a good cabinet maker lined up before you start.


Enjoy the music.

Dave, are there any capacitors that can replace "Black Gates"? Time is what has to be in the evaluation for the answer to that question. I replaced all my electrolytics with Black Gates a long time ago, and all those old components function like new.

I know Nichicon Gold might be comparable to Black Gates, the only question is time. Since they're all I know, I'll have to settle for them; also they're much cheaper.


Enjoy the music.

Dave, my crossovers have one for each driver, and I used Jentzen Silver Z- cap, except for the woofer where I use Solen Caps; all of that to get a speaker that does not exist.

I've seen the Thiel crossover, it's a monster. Since I specified the big Heil Air motion transformer, he had to design according to that; they gave him a lot of latitude in regard to tweeter crossover frequency, and Thiel speakers were the closest to anything I liked in regard to sound. Now I've got speakers that have no sound, but the sound stage is similar to Theil, meaning the speakers I heard disappeared; state of the art ARC was used for the electronics, so that certainly helped.

Of course I would never attempt to design a crossover; you got to know when to hold, and when to fold.


Enjoy the music.

Dave, I just listen to music without thinking about my speakers, but when someone said speakers are the most important thing in a rig; that started me to thinking about my speakers. When I tried to evaluate them, there was nothing to evaluate; they're like those lizards that change colors; they take on whatever color the source gives them, and that includes interconnect wire.

That is what I set out to get originally, and that's what I got.

I recall some B&W 801 or some other number in the 800 series that sounded huge, although they were normal sized speakers; I might like them, but they require a much larger amplifier than the one I got. I would like to hear some other high quality speakers, but that might require spending enough to buy some speakers.

I think I will leave well enough alone and enjoy my nonexistent speakers.


Enjoy the music.

Dave, have you been through room acoustics? Can you make specific recommendations? I've seen different things, but I don't know what does what.


Thank you.

Dave and Veridian, these are the Heil AMT's from "Wkipedia"; this tells all about them


        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Motion_Transformer

I use 6 inch Vifa for the midrange; they developed some new 6 inch midrange speakers, so I got them for an easy swap. The woofer is 12 inch Pioneer, nothing special, just quite solid and musical.

Those are very good recommendations Eric; I've looked at what a number of those people have to offer, and it's all good. Going with someone who has all the test equipment, expertise, and cabinet making facility's is the best way to go.

Parts Express is fine for putting a speaker together for bedroom, or entertainment room, but not for your A-1 rig.

I agree with your post Dave; once you get it together, it's about fine tuning. I have a right channel problem; the right side of the sound stage is emphasized. It took me two years to determine that it had nothing to do with the rig, it's the room. I know it's better to correct that, than simply turn up the left channel in order to compensate.

In regard to which is most important; source, or speakers; the source is most important. Some will say that 60% say speakers, therefore they must be right; I say that means 60% of the people are wrong.

That can only be right if you prefer to listen to the speakers as opposed to the music. It's very hard to help anyone in regard to speakers; all I can add to that is there are many different sounds within "Stereophile's" rating system, and if you're a serious music lover, and listener, you have to rely on some "high end review". I've been told that some of the best speakers are affordable, so that's no longer a major problem.

I hope I've responded to everyone's posts.


Enjoy the music.

Dave, I'm in the process of building a table for the TT to record on the concrete floor in the basement; no vibrations there, but upstairs on hardwood floors, that's like a springboard for a TT..  Soon will be my first time to seriously get into room acoustics.

Thanks for the info

Dave, you really have a beautiful "man cave'; Empire Cartridges were my favorite back in the day, they looked and sounded good.

Did that corner treatment solve all your problems? I'm not sure if I'm up to building one now, are they available for installation?

Without a doubt, you got a swell place for enjoying one of the best rigs I've seen.


I really enjoyed perusing it.

Viridian, those are the same exact tweeters I'm using. The magnetic field can snatch a screwdriver out of your hands. It was in the middle 80's when I began with the drivers and the crossovers, and only recently did I finally come up with a cabinet that I liked; that's probably why speaker manufacturers don't use them.

Dave, I use "rug cores" in the front corners and they work; 12 foot long cylinders made out of "hard paper" trap bass frequencies and stop everything from resonating. I know they can't possibly work as well as what you pay for, but they came with some new rugs, and they were free.

Poverty is the mother of invention.


Enjoy the music.

Dave, there is a very good reason for your confusion, and you stated it quite well.

Tech Talk is the name of this forum; that means we know a thing or two about how to get class "A" sound out of less than class "A" equipment.

I will give a limited example of how we get Class "A" sound from components that may have began as class "C" components, but that's taking it a long way; it's easier to turn Class "B" into class "A"; but when you think about how much cheaper Class "B" is than Class "A"; that's still taking it a long way.

First you must know what Class "A" sounds like; while I know because "high end salons" existed when I went on my "pilgrimage" to those places to discover and differentiate between the different classes. I don't know how it can be done now.

But that is the beginning, as an example of some of the things I have done; I made my own interconnects; Belden had some wire they sold to radio and TV stations they used for interconnects, that was a copper and silver composite; they sold it in 100 ft reels. (they no longer sell that to individuals, I wonder why not?)

New wire for tonearms is a good tweak. There are many useful tweaks for TT's that can be found on this forum that will bring them up to "B" if they started out "C", and that's a big leap in price. You will have to bite the bullet on cartridges.

Of course you have to be a technician to attempt my latest project. (those monoblocks sound so good now, that I'm in no hurry to upgrade the capacitors) which is not only to change the capacitors, but to modify the cabinet the unit came in.

There are limits to what I can do; TT tops out at Class "B"; Class "A" for amps and Pre's that began as Class "B". When you add up the money for interconnects, it comes to quite a bit; fortunately I have enough of that Belden wire to last a lifetime, but "Vampire Wire" sells some good wire, and everything you need to "roll your own". That concludes everything I can think of for the moment.

We're on the same page, and I concur with your list.



Enjoy the music.

Dave, I had just gotten into the high end and I had to buy some of the components I auditioned, plus all the other stuff one considers a necessity after getting into the high end; I wasn't wasting any one's time. But what I did then is impossible now, because there aren't enough high end salons.

I have no idea how someone starting out can know, or hear in their heads the differences in the classifications of sound. Yes it matters because Class "A" sound yields so much more satisfaction; it's not a status thing if you're a very serious music lover.

Without a doubt, most of it is far too expensive for the average person to afford, but as you pointed out, class "B" is a lot cheaper and can come so close to "A" that it's hard to tell the difference.

Tech-talk is the forum for someone with a beer pocket book and champagne taste, because there are ways to accomplish this, and one does not have to be a technician, but you have to learn how to solder, and if you're a fumble fingers, know your limitations.

Presently I'm in that phase you're in, dealing with "room acoustics". Before I attempted to build my speaker, I went to the library and read everything I could find on crossovers.

When I went to the engineer, I impressed him with my knowledge and was able to communicate what I wanted. Believe me, those people don't like to waste time if you don't know what you want. I mentioned that to let anyone who is serious about getting the best audio possible without the champagne pocket book, know that it requires work.

The library is no longer necessary, I have "google". The first step is to find what "google" knows about room acoustics; combine that with your experiences and go from there. Room acoustics is very scientific, no smoke and mirrors, that's why those rug cores, which were very tall cylinders that allowed the bass frequencies to enter but not leave, worked.

I enjoy communicating with someone who is as precise as you Dave.


Enjoy the music.

Dave, I don't mean to be contrary, but no matter how enjoyable, a trip to the concert hall, or hearing sparkling voices singing in a large beautiful church is, you are dealing in the realm of impossibility (or close to it) in regard to creating this in your listening room.

In regard to DIY and room acoustics, the first thing is "define" what the room treatment has accomplished that makes your listening experience so much more pleasurable. Although our "bass traps" look as different as night and day, they both trap standing waves.


          http://www.acousticsciences.com/products/tube-trap


Notice how those tubes resemble "rug cores". That is just one example of DYI in regard to room acoustics. The improvements delivered by correcting room acoustics are astounding; they are like night and day when compared with, and without.

No Dave, you haven't "hijacked" my original thread, which is basically about achieving "Class "A" sound as cheap as possible. More correctly you have re-directed it to room acoustics, which might yield more improvement in audio than some other things.

Those room treatments in the link above are stunning, and they work. There may be ways to duplicate them if funds are not in hand to purchase them.


Enjoy the music.

Viridian, the closest to creating the experience you described is in a movie theater; a listening room is a long way from a movie theater.

I had a Phase Linear 4 channel, that was interesting; it created some ambiance, and had features like a "dynamic range expander", that did just that; but when it comes to accurately recreating music, I prefer the way were going, which requires a lot of expertise, but it can't be beat in the small area of a listening room.

Until we complete the journey were on, we wont know how far we can go. I'm enjoying the ride in the meantime.


Have fun along the way.

Melbguy1, I was using Stereophile's rating system as a means to communicate levels of audio quality that was represented by names like ARC, CJ, and Naim, to name a few. I'm glad you brought up something that I was unaware of, but this thread is not about "Stereophile", only those levels of audio quality.

Since "High end salons" no longer exist, we're having a problem communicating those levels of sound. I hope those who don't have them stamped on their brain, will have some confidence in me, and those who know what they mean will help me communicate to those who don't. There are so many different "sonics" that qualify, no matter what your preference, it's possible to find it in Class "A".

Presently we're into "room acoustics", which is an area often overlooked. Never have I been in a high end salon that didn't have them all over the place. Maybe you know of some that haven't been mentioned.


Enjoy the music.

Dave, I'm so curious about those room treatments, that I think we should start another thread titled "Room Treatments" in order to get more ideas on that subject.  If you start one, I'll be one of your loyal followers.

OK Dave, we'll keep it here and pick your brain.
http://www.acousticsciences.com/products/tube-trap

That's the place we'll refer to.

I'm going to start with the half round 4ft tube trap to get an idea how they work; after that I'll look for way's to DIY or roll your own, so to speak; that's our objective.

Once we put all these brilliant minds to work, we'll have perfect rooms in no time

I didn't realize the full round and the half round are almost the same price, I might as well get the full round.

I'll call and order Monday, I'm just going to get one piece. If you can think of anything I might need to know before then, drop a line.

A trip around the room begins with one full round.

Like you said Dave "They ain't cheap". I know they work, but it's for sure I should call and chat for awhile. My problem on the surface, or what it appears to be, is a more powerful right channel, but I know it's the room acoustics causing the problem.

I can correct it by turning the left volume higher than the right, but I don't think I'm getting as good of a sound stage as I would by correcting the problem.

It seems that everyone has had the bass problem they corrected by installing "front corner traps"; now that I have a more complex problem, I want to make sure that I spend money effectively.

After looking at the prices, my "DIY" mind is working overtime.

Thanks for the information.