It's all about sound, not how much it cost; when I got into "high end", I knew right off the bat I couldn't afford it, but I had to find one thing for sure; how do the various components sound in regard to Stereophile's classes, or ratings? In order to know this; I had to acquire the ability to identify "Stereophile's" class "A" class "B" and class "C" sounds, and the only way to do that was: first, subscribe to Stereophile, and next was to go to every high end audio salon within driving distance; there were 5 well stocked "high end" salons within driving distance. (Since I didn't take my wife, that created some problems)
After a few years of subscribing to Stereophile, plus auditioning equipment that Stereophile recommended, I knew the sound of those recommendations, and I absolutely concurred with them; "If you want to hear the music, you got to pay the piper". While that's true, it's possible to get class "A" sound with class "B" bucks or less.
At this moment, I am looking at 8 capacitors that cost $25 dollars each, plus 2 mono blocks with an instant resale value of 6K. Once I take the covers off and go in with my soldering iron, these mono blocks are worth a resell of O; my mission must be a success. After a successful mission, the resell is still 0; but those mono blocks will deliver class "A" or "A"+ sound, and that's some sweet music.
I have to visualize and hear music in my head before I can modify a component to deliver class "A" sound; but that's the only way for me to get what has become a necessity.
The pressure someone is under when they modify, is great, but the rewards are glorious. On these mono blocks, they are too small for the huge capacitors, therefore I have to figure a way to make the case larger. My reward is "sound" with absolutely no relation to money. I often wander if someone with a fat bankroll can identify the sound, or only how much they paid for each piece.
Don't agree that the value plummets to 0 just because you upgraded some caps as long as you know how to solder properly. If you are going to replace the caps, look at even better more expensive ones like the Jupiter wax range.
Dicockrum, I spent a number of years going to " high end salons" and discovering what it was all about. So much so that my wife swore I was seeing another woman; after all, what red blooded male would spend that much time listening to music.
That was when such places existed. Contrary to almost everyone else, I found their evaluations to be valid, although I never auditioned "A"+. Class "B" is tricky when a component fluctuates from "B" to "C", but that component is always a good buy.
System synergy can put a component in another class.
An example of two components that didn't sound alike, but the top line of both was class "A", are CJ and ARC. I learned a lot, and had a lot of fun with other Audiophiles during those years, but you can understand a wife's disbelief.
Noromance, I did industrial soldering, including aerospace for a living. Although you're right in most cases, in this case, the component case is not big enough to accommodate these huge capacitors, and I will have to expand it.
Although these caps are not as expensive as the Jupiter, they're just as big.
Have you compared Jupiter with V- Cap?
In this case I see no point in even considering resell. What I will be able to consider is whether or not to use Jupiter or V-cap the next time.
Dlcockrum, I just happened to think of something funny; while my wife was always worried about other women then, now she laughs when I threaten to see other women.
Randy, there was a guy begging me to come over and evaluate his system. Finally I found the time and went over; before the review, he pointed out a lot of "Class A components"; his rig looked like an add out of Stereophile. After listening for awhile, I knew something was wrong, but didn't have the time to find out what.
It was for sure those name components could have produced better sound, but my only option was to tell him how grand his rig sounded, and what an enjoyable evening I had listening to it.
Since I didn't have the time to help him, I left him with a big "Cheshire Grin" on his face; yes, the price of the components influence the sound one is hearing.
I have auditioned a few class "A" components via Stereophile.
I was never disappointed during those sessions. Now, several key reviewers have left the publication for one reason or another, the hope is that, the next generation will carry on this important mission.
We dedicated readers/subscribers have lost several giants of the Audio Press- my fear is that there is not a next generation to carry on.
Just buy a larger case for roughly $150 you can get a precision case with all cut out made in Italy . This is what I did with my Pass Labs F-6 dual mono design clone using only premium parts and to smooth all those Lytic caps take the VH Oimp caps on the outputs ,preamp coupling . I put 94 uf per channel What a improvement over evrn the very good Nichicon gold Electrolytic caps. on the outputs everything is smoothed through ,and much less then Mundorf or Jensen with performance on par or better ,Tip for the day .
Jafant, I believe your fears have good foundation.
It's nice to know someone else has discovered those ratings to be valid, at least in class "A". When I went on a mission to verify those ratings was sometime ago, it was when high end salons existed; now, I couldn't do it, and I don't see how anyone else can.
Audioman58, I would like more information on that; is it good enough for resell? Not that it matters a great deal.
Nichicon Gold are some good Electrolytics. It was 10 years ago when I changed all my Electrolytics that weren't too big, to "Blackgate's"; which are no longer available.
When you get the incredible degree of improvement we get from these "Mods", who cares about resell.
You sound like a hammer looking for a nail. It would never occur to me to look for an amp to work on. And if I were, I would hope I knew more about than most other people. You should probably look for an old Scott integrated and go to town on it. That would be kind of fun, like fixing up a 1936 LaSalle coupe.
I agree with you, Orpheus. In general, you have to pay more to get better sound. If you have access to lots of gear that you can swap in and out of your system for free, you may be able to put together a "giant killer" system, but most of us have to cough up the money.
OK viridian, How do you build a synergistic system without listening to different boxes or different entire systems made by one manufacturer, preferably for extended periods of time in your own room?
Do you just let someone else tell you what you should like and take whatever they sell you home and tell all your friends how synergistic your system is?
Can you list these synergistic systems for us? Can we buy any one or do we have to listen to them all to decide which one we like?
Everyone should know that capacitors don't live forever. As long as the replacement is done correctly then you should be fine. Often de-soldering the old caps is the most difficult part of the job. I may have to disagree that newer "better" caps are the best way to go, especially if they are in the signal path and not just a part of the power supply. The sound could change and not for the better. Best of luck.
Well, that’s fine that the Brits have their audio lore, that may be a good place to start your search, but I don’t think anyone can accurately determine for a person whether they would like Naim amplification to begin with let alone which speakers would work best in their room. Too many variables involved. Everyone’s hearing, musical tastes and rooms are different. You simply have to listen to components to decide whether you like them or not, preferably in your own room over an extended period of time.
And, if you go to three different audio dealers and tell them what you are looking for, you'll get three different systems recommended to you.
If you want to choose your audio gear based on conventional wisdom, be my guest. I’ll choose by listening to it.
Tomcy6, in regard to swapping in and out, that reminds me of when I was hanging out at a top "Audio Salon"; me and the guys were grooving on an all reference Audio Research system with top of the line Thiel speakers, when a customer came in wanting to audition an Adcom amplifier. Now Adcom is good "affordable" equipment, but it's not "ARC". That Adcom just smoked the groove.
My point in telling this, is that you have to have all top of the line in the audio chain, one piece wont do it; if you don't think you can swing 100%, one piece is a waste of money. Of course you will get some improvement, but not nearly what you paid for. A chain is no stronger than it's weakest link; we just had one weak link in a class "A" chain and it smoked the sound, relative to what we had been hearing.
Don't get me wrong "Adcom" makes very good gear, but it doesn't cost as much, or sound as good as ARC.
I have never experienced "spectacular" synergy, only what reading and common sense got me.
I agree with you Orpheus. A system must be composed of components of similar quality. One lower quality component can ruin a good system.
I also agree with viridian that it’s much easier to assemble a good system with the help of a knowledgeable dealer. It’s just that unless you live in a major city, there aren’t many of them around.
For those of us who don't have a number of audio shops nearby, the Stereophile recommended components list is a good starting point, and not just the current list but older ones too.
Viridian, this whole "A" "B" "C" thing is foolishness if you can not afford Class "A".
I spent years subscribing to "Stereophile" and spending time in high end salons. After reading "Recommended components" I went and compared the "sound" of the component" and other components in that class; you will not get class "B" sound for Class "C" money. Now there are many different sounds in all the classes, and for that reason you might prefer a class "C" component over a class "B" component.
I just ordered a cartridge that's class "B", but costs more than another similar cartridge that's also Class "B". I'm not buying these components because they're Class "B"; I'm buying them because they sound good. If I could afford Class "A", I would buy Class "A"; not because it's "Class "A" but because of the spectacular sonics. If I could get Class "A" sound for Class "C" money, I would buy it all.
One of the best examples I can think of at the moment is "ARC" and Conrad Johnson; two different sounds when both are class "A".
Compare CJ PV12, and CJ PV10; both are CJ but PV12 sounds better; while both sound good, one costs more than the other although they both make Class "B"; that means buy the one you can afford, but money is the boss denominator. Many people have them both is why I gave that example. In the end, I'm not buying class "B", I'm buying Class "B" sound; if it was free and delivered that sound, I would really go for that.
I don't get the connection between a "synergistic" system and the different classes of sound?
Viridian, I'm familiar with Naim electronics, but not Linn speakers. Naim is among top of the line electronics, Linn speakers evidently cost less. I have never experienced "synergy" that saved a bundle of money, but synergy is important. In the example you gave, I know about Naim, but not Linn. Could you give an example with "Polk" speakers, they're good but relatively inexpensive speakers.
I have a standard, the same as everybody else on this forum; some guys were discussing 20K tone arms; by now I assume you know that's too rich for my blood, but I settle for Class "B" sound as cheap as I can get it.
Since I have skilled hands, I can get class "B" sound from a Class "C" turntable; I think you were in a discussion of that nature; it's what mods are about.
I'm not trying to sell a magazine, it's just that aspect of the magazine I found to be generally valid.
viridian, I'd bet that you've listened to a whole lot of appliances in the last 40+ years and have arrived at your level of audio wisdom after many years of listening experience. What if someone hasn't lived in NY and LA but in Montana or Mississippi without an audio society or audio shop within hundreds of miles? What if they haven't been alive for even 30 years? How do they learn the audio ropes?
Maybe reading the audio magazines and forums and trying different gear is the only option. You can't know that a Dynavector is a better option for a VPI with a 9" unipivot arm than an Ortophon if you've never heard any of those appliances.
Tomcy6, you are absolutely correct; what I did then, driving to high end audio salons and listening to many of the components that were reviewed and rated, would be impossible now. As you stated; presently, I'm no different than anyone living in the "boonies" because those high end salons are gone.
How anyone is supposed to achieve this "synergy" Viridian is talking about is a mystery to me. I "lucked" upon it one time, and I can't even remember that.
Whatever the situation, you can only play the cards you got, not the ones you wish you had.
Viridian, assuming "synergy" is the gospel truth, how is one suppose to discover it?
In regard to "cartridges" do not depend on advice from anyone. They are far too expensive to get the wrong one for you. You must first go through a process of discovery; that is auditioning different cartridges, and you choose from the family of cartridges that's most conducive to the music you like.
My advice is stay away from records as far as you can get, if you don't have any; however, if you got money to blow, meaning a fat bank account, have fun.
Stereophile and the other reputable publications do provide a bellwether of sorts for sorting audio gear, but there is an unfortunate side effect to their approach for those seeking guidance in sorting through the myriad of component offerings for purchase: If a component is auditioned for review and does not cut muster in a substantial way, they normally don't publish a review, nor do they tell their readership about this when it occurs, excepting possibly KR or Tom Gillette (Sam Tellig) when he was there. I understand the wisdom of this for a publication that depends almost entirely on advertising revenues for its existence, but it does limit the usefulness for those seeking to narrow the field for purchasing decisions.
So, IMO, one can assume that the components listed in Recommended Components are ones of substantial merit, but so few of the great components available are included due to the realities of limited time and resources for thorough review. Just how it is.
A second point is that it is impossible to keep non-current components in the mix of ratings. Those on a budget (including me) need to seriously consider the true audio bargains in the used market, but unless one has possession of (or keen knowledge/memory of) the years of reviews in past issues, the options are to limited to selecting from the lower categories of recent reviews that are within their budget.
Thirdly, by the very nature of being reviewers (I have reviewer friends), they cannot possibly find the optimal combinations of gear available for review that provide the best ultimate synergy. The reviewers have their vast experience and the network they share with other reviewers to guide them in pairings for review, but this is a far cry from what is necessary to find the best combinations necessary for long-term listening satisfaction.
Fourthly and lastly, there is little information about how to tweak the sound of components to provide their best performance. I include cabling, power enhancement products, room acoustical treatments, and vibration-reduction products in this category (for the purpose of this writing but I certainly consider these things as vital to achieving great sound in the home environment) . Tweaks are under such scrutiny/denial/criticism by so many and the time to identify the best ones for each component and application is simply impossible for reviewers. The best guide is to carefully examine the reviewers' list of "associated components" the accompanies the review for a vague idea of what that reviewer uses as a general setup. Many a component has suffered an inaccurate review due to ignorance about compatible cabling. Smart manufacturers get involved in the review of their equipment and personally see to it that this is addressed, but little is normally included in the review about this.
So where does this leave us? Competent advice from friends who are farther along the journey and share our preferences in sound characteristics, interaction with local audio societies, and with forums such as this to ask others who have more experience and then to sort the responses to pick the ones of most benefit and application to our circumstances and those with the most perceived credibility. The challenge here is to know the right questions to ask and how to interpret the responses, which unfortunately also takes some level of experience.
Perhaps most of all, to understand the notion of the hierarchy of "foundation components" (those that are primary to establishing a successful path to great sounding systems) before buying a component that will sent us off into a unnecessarily difficult and expensive journey to accommodate its idiosyncracies. Room =>Speakers=>AC quality=> Vibration isolation=>Source=> Preamp=>Amplifier=>cabling would be my recommended path FWIW.
Viridian, there is no doubt about source first; I'm an electronics tech, that's what I did until I retired. Source first is a fact from a "scientific" point of view. The preamp takes what you give it, makes it bigger, passes that to the amp, which gives it to the speaker. If you gave the pre "crap" it's going to give bigger "crap" to the amp which gives fat "crap" to the speaker; some people claim that fat crap sounds good if it comes out of the right speaker.
With cartridges your only option, since you can't audition the cartridge, is to pay careful attention to the music the reviewer is using. If he likes the cartridge when using the (same music) you like, that's a good bet.
I wont even mention the cartridge I like, because it gets bad press on most from this forum, and I can understand that because type of music determines the cartridge best for whoever is buying it. Relative to everything else, the front end is expensive, if it's to be a good one, even when you make it better with "tweaks", the good tweaks aren't cheap.
Sota Star Saphire is my favorite. 1K in tweaks can give you a Rega P-3 that will run with the big dogs, like the Sota Star Saphire; that's a big dog in my league any way; No Great Dane's in my league.
...there is no doubt about source first; I’m an electronics tech, that’s what I did until I retired. Source first is a fact from a "scientific" point of view. The preamp takes what you give it, makes it bigger, passes that to the amp, which gives it to the speaker. If you gave the pre "crap" it’s going to give bigger "crap" to the amp which gives fat "crap" to the speaker; some people claim that fat crap sounds good if it comes out of the right speaker.
A lot of people feel that way, but I for one disagree. And regardless of what part of a system one considers to be most important, I would emphatically disagree that "source first is a fact from a ’scientific’ point of view."
What matters is not whether the crap is bigger or smaller. What matters is the ratio of signal-to-crap. And also, of course, the specific characteristics of the crap.
Also, the preamp doesn’t necessarily make anything bigger, as in many cases, especially if digital sources are being used, the volume control will be set such that the amplitude of what comes out of the preamp is less than the amplitude of what goes into it.
Also, while source first advocates frequently point out that downstream components cannot correct for the shortcomings of the source, they almost invariably fail to point out that it is also true that the source cannot correct for the shortcomings of the downstream components.
As I see it, a chain is no stronger than its weakest link, regardless of where in the chain that link may be located.
Al, unless somebody just invented a digital preamp, I'm not aware of such a critter. No matter what the source, it's analog to the preamp; that's the only way it works; have you heard of a DAC; that stands for Digital to Analog Converter; but "fat crap" sounds good to some people, especially when you crank the bass to make it even fatter.
O-10, I said nothing about a digital preamp. I referred to digital sources (as opposed to vinyl sources). Examples being CD players, digital files being played from computers, network audio players, etc. Obviously a DAC would be utilized in conjunction with such a source, unless the source component or the preamp itself incorporates a DAC. My point was that the amplitude of the resulting analog signal, that is provided to the preamp, will often be a good deal greater than the output of a phono stage/cartridge combination, and will often result in the preamp’s volume control being set such that the preamp’s analog output is smaller than its analog input.
Al, the purpose of the phono is to bring the signal to line level; while a hot signal can come off the CD, it's not supposed to, because there is nothing to control volume inside the PC. The only difference this makes is that the signal is louder, not better.
The quality of the preamp is determined by how precisely it amplifies the signal it gets from the phono or CD. The quality of phono varies a great deal more than CD; that could be good or bad. When we considered BIC, Gerrard, and Dual as good TT's; they were not as good as CD; but when the expensive cartridges and TT's that are currently discussed, are used, the signal is better than CD.
That signal requires an expensive pre and amp. I think what Viridian was saying, is that he only has so many "bundles" of money; when the cartridge costs one bundle, the TT another Bundle, by the time he gets through with those bundles of money, plus bundles for the pre and amp, he can't buy as high a quality speaker as he would like; therefore he chooses a less costly speaker because he has a perfect signal all the way up to the speaker, and moderate speakers will sound good when they are presented with a perfect signal.
An expensive perfect speaker will not compensate for a bad signal, it will do what it is supposed to do, which is to turn the electronic signal it gets into audio whether that signal is good or bad; that sums up both sides of the equation, and I side with Veridian.
You are missing Al's point. With a CD player the preamp will most likely be reducing the signal to the amp, not amplifying it. Without some way to reduce the source singal everything would be one volume level, and very loud!
Koestner, take me to your source; the source of what ever made you say that. That thing called a volume control on the preamp that you turn up or down sets the level to the amp. But I know you knew that. If you turn it up, the speakers get loud, and down, they get quiet.
The source vs speaker debate is a valid one and there will likely never be consensus. The obvious fact is that both are important. However, I submit that while both are the major determinants of a system’s sound character and audio quality, a great source will work well with a wider variety of room acoustical treatment, preamplifiers, phono sections (providing it has adequate loading adjustment), amplifiers, and cabling than a speaker will, thus the speaker is the primary foundation component when building a complete audio system.
Dicockrum, I have stated consistently, "You can not play the cards you wish you had, you have to play what's dealt" after all is said and done, I have never been able to buy the speakers I wish I had, therefore I have to settle for what I consider is sufficient.
If I had an unlimited budget, I wouldn't have to have that argument with myself, but adequate speakers, and close to top of the line electronics work best for me.
In my listening room, the right channel is favored, I have to turn the left channel up louder than the right because of "room acoustics". When the source is 2 track reel, that problem is corrected.
Koestner 11-13-2016
You are missing Al's point. With a CD player the preamp will most likely
be reducing the signal to the amp, not amplifying it. Without some way
to reduce the source signal everything would be one volume level, and
very loud!
Orpheus10 11-13-2016
Koestner, take me to your source; the source of what ever made you say
that. That thing called a volume control on the preamp that you turn up
or down sets the level to the amp. But I know you knew that. If you
turn it up, the speakers get loud, and down, they get quiet.
The "full scale" (maximum) output of the great majority of D/A converters (whether they are stand-alone DACs or are contained within a CD player or other component) falls between 2 and 3 volts for unbalanced outputs, and twice that for balanced outputs.
The majority of power amplifiers will be driven to their maximum power capability by an input somewhere between 0.5 and 2 volts for unbalanced inputs, and twice that for balanced inputs.
Most digital recordings are engineered such that musical peaks come close to digital "full scale" (the maximum possible digital value).
Therefore in most cases involving a digital source the preamp's volume control will be set such that the preamp's output voltage at any instant of time is less than its input voltage. And even more so considering that many and probably most users can be presumed to utilize the maximum power capability of their amplifiers rarely if ever.
That is the basis of my simple statement that:
... the preamp doesn’t necessarily make anything bigger, as in many
cases, especially if digital sources are being used, the volume control
will be set such that the amplitude of what comes out of the preamp is
less than the amplitude of what goes into it.
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