Choice between two different integrated tube amps (SET & PP)

SET all the way.  

Hey @carlsbad I've never owned a SET amp, that is a draw to me for sure.

depends on speaker to be driven also, which you did not mention @blkwrxwgn

part of the fun in this hobby is pursue what you are curious about, experience it... so if that is SET moreso than PP then go for it

the primaluna vs willsenton are very different amps (albeit both tube amps), different input and power tubes, different transformers, different circuits, different features, etc etc... set vs pp is just one dimension of difference of probably 10-11 relevant attributes

in either case you will likely end up doing some tube rolling to find out what each one can really do

final thing... unless something has really changed for the better with willsenton, you will get much much better support for primaluna (i believe you are in the usa, iirc)

set vs pp is just one dimension of difference of probably 10-11 relevant attributes

That this is true is an understatement.

There are simply too many different variables at play here to even begin to speculate. Unless you wish for general statements about the characteristics of a PP Vs SET - and they are known and have been discussed since time dot.

To which I add my own experience of no relevance - I have a SET and a PP.  The SET has been in storage for a decade because it is ugly.

I would never spend that kind of money on the Willsenton.....  I have listened to several Prima Luna and they sounded pretty good.  I would say support on the PL would be better just because Upscale is the distributor.    

Stay away from Willsenton! It runs the 805 tubes at over 1000 plate volts. Long-term reliability is suspect! All new production 805's are from China. PL EL34's are readily available and affordable from European manufacturers.

Anybody have experience with either?  Have read great reviews of each of them. 

Seriously?
Have we ever seen bad reviews? 😁

I got the PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP, used, from a friend who I have gotten other amps from. It seems a bit light on bass, but it was after a change to a new house and room, so I am still working through it. And It’ll probably be better once I get the VandySub hooked up, and the remote is fun to use.

If your example is an integrated, then it seems like it is a different model?

Also I did get some KT120s but have not put them in yet,  so if you get the PL then hold off and you can consider upgrades later. I kind of rushed in, but I might sell it locally, as I have been seriously been considering either Purifi based class-D or Atmasphere.

It was $2k (USD) used and the full tube upgrade was ~1200 AUD (900 USD).

It is definitely good enough, and sounds pretty good. What you are driving them with could help to know. I feel like it is marginal on power and it is rated something like 40W Triode and 80W UL.

There is no dishonour in a demo unit, going slow, or more hand wringing.
I baiscally needed and amp, and this was sitting there, so I got it.

The Willsenton runs 48wpc, so power output may not be issue. I owned PL Dialogue Four, self modded with Takman and MIflex caps, until very recently. I also own 845 and 300B SET amps. High power SET creates lots of heat, heat is enemy of audio components, 48wpc is an awful lot of power for SET vs even the 18-20wpc of 845 tube, so I'd expect even more heat from 805 amp, plus you have active line stage which mean more heat, all on circuit boards within relatively small enclosure. The Willsenton scares me, I like to see point to point, separate line stage or at least passive linestage here. And yep, 1000v is nothing to laugh at, any failures will be catastrophic. If you were intent on SET, I'd prefer Line Magnetic, assuming it has enough wattage for your needs.

The Willsenton could have very nice sound quality, perhaps better than PL, but based on reliability and build quality I'd go with the PL. Any possible issues with PL will also be taken care of by Upscale, very good techs there.

I gave a general endorsement of SET above but I think SNS has some great comments about tube choice, heat and power.

With your very efficient speakers you don't need 48 wpc.  20 is plenty.  LM makes a lot of SET amps with a variety of different tubes that run (at least a little) cooler.  

I would still avoid the PL push pull design. 

Jerry

LM is another option that I'll look into but I've had a Muzishare integrated which most say is just a LM amp.  We are all talking Chinese amps, which I have no problem with but I don't get how one would be so much better than the other quality wise other than service domestically.  

The LM 805IA is almost the same exact amp as the Willsenton, at least from a casual glance, maybe I'm missing the major differences?

Agree that the PL has better service access if needed. I run KT150 power tubes in my PL and this is a massive sonic difference from the EL34. The PL is built like a tank and I am confident of its long term reliability. I Owned an SET amp for many years and the sonic presentation can be very seductive. However, generally speaking, SET amps require very careful speaker matching

Great comments above!

I think SET is something to experience. It can be intoxicating, but as mentioned speaker pairing is key and they can be a bit fickle. What speakers are you using? 

PL does just about everything really well--design, build, service, reliability, and so on.  However, if I had a sonic bone to pick it might be headroom.  Everything seemed a bit jammed together sound wise and even though I had the opportunity over 4 years to run it with all types of speakers, everything seemed a bit compressed.  Great product though. 

Let us know what speakers you have when you have a moment.

@blkwrxwgn They do have similar exterior, LM is point to point wiring vs. circuit boards in Willsenton, here's pic, https://www.phantom-audio.com/product/line-magnetic-integrated-lm-805ia/

I prefer point to point, especially with high heat generating tubes, usually more reliable. LM also more established here.

Mike Sanders' Quicksilver Integrated tube amplifier, if its 20 watts into 8 ohms is enough for your speakers. And you'd need to kludge something for home theater. But it's at your budget, its U.S. made, and it sounds great.

I’m running my R8 with the upgraded tube package through a pair of Tekton Perfect SET 2-10’s. I’ve had the same setup for about a year now and it’s still getting better. Music sounds more... liquid, engaging, and fills out my listen room better then it did just a month ago. Great bass, dynamics, detail, and timbre.

I can’t speak to the Prima Luna option, although I’ve been very curious about them. Truth be told I’ve ordered a Decware 25th anniversary amp just to see what all the fuss is about. My only hesitation about purchasing the R8 was about it’s longevity and customer support. They haven’t been around that long. But so far I’m loving it!

I own several pieces of Quicksilver.    Bang for the buck is off the charts in my opinion.    Mid Monos ?   Awesome amps....  you are not too far away budget wise ...pair them with the remote pre with bypass and you have a killer combo.

Maybe Raven,  Rogue.....

Buy American, you can do it with your budget

PP will give you more flexibiliuty on speaker choices

SET usually sounds better but your limited on speaker choice.

Line Magnetic 845 Premium Version works better then the chinese import version, better parts and transformer.

LM Stuff is very good just stick to a dealer when buying Line Magnetic too many people have been burned going direct to China and ending up with junk.

You may also want to consider the Black Ice Audio F-35 integrated.

Underwoodhifi has them new for $2,600.00

I currently own the Primaluna Dialogue HP integrated that I run with KT120 tubes, it sounds very smooth in UL.

I also own the Black Ice F-36 that I am running with the 6550 tubes, not as smooth or powerful as the Primaluna but still very good, it also makes for a good Headphone amp.

I just picked up the Decware Zen TORRI Mk5 around Thanksgiving and all I can say is that this amp is my favorite even if it does not put out over 20 - 25 watts with the KT77 tubes, it is more than powerful enough to fill my room  12' X 20' at only 5-10 watts which is very loud.

Ultimately only you and your ears can tell you what sounds best.

Good luck and keep on listening.

My speakers are Tekton Double Impacts which are rated at 98 db, would think they would pair well with SET amps. 20 watts would be plenty.

I don’t care where the amp is made, reliability doesn’t depend on that but dealer or service network does.

Also I mentioned before but I absolutely have to have HT bypass too. 
 

appreciate all the recommendations 

My point is the American brands I mentioned in your price point are not only better but they all can be serviced.   I believe they are inherently.more reliable because they use better parts.   Buying a Chinese amp with no support network is a recipe for disappointment.   

The Primaluna is a top notch Integrated amp.   I owned one.   I’ve not heard the Willsenton.   The answer so depend on the rest of your rig.   SET, PP, etc.   what works best for your speakers and source?   Can you try both in your rig?

Trust your ears, not other’s opinions.   Hear the difference and decide for yourself if there’s value for the sonic difference.

I would look at allnic, mactone and even consider building an elekit amp in your position........ Line magnetic 845 never has bad reviews.... 

It always cracks me up when the "buy American" adage comes up in these threads.  If you took out all of the "foreign" parts in those American amps, you'd be left with an American doorstop.

Plenty of Chinese products use top notch parts from all over the world, not limited to using only Chinese parts. And yes, nearly every audio component made in more recent past and today is hybrid Chinese product.

And I don't mean to say the Willsenton cannot be reliable, research it and if it has good track record it could work out.

I don't know impedance curve of your speakers, but with 98db sensitivity 845 should work. With that sensitivity and benign impedance curve 300b is even possible, can't have severe slope or drop down below 6ohm.

Keep in mind 805 and 845 amps are space heaters, they'll heat up your room in summer. But then SET sound sublime.

@blkwrxwgn I had the same (PP vs. SET) itch that I just had to scratch. I had only owned PP amps thus far, but recently had a chance to acquire a Rogers High Fidelity 65-v2 class A SET amp based on EL34. While it does not have the juice to drive less efficient speakers or 'rock the house' if you will, there is something about the design that just pulls you in. I can't pinpoint any specific area but all I can say is that the way it presents music has an emotional, ethereal appeal that the PP amps simply cannot match at the same level. Of course, PP has its own strengths and can provide the same emotional connection. But I just feel that SET does it a little better. You do pay a price in terms of dynamics and bass output though.

Of course speaker matching and your preferred genre of music is going to be a determining factor. But if you can find a used Rogers 65-v1 or v2, you won't be disappointed. It is built by hand in the USA, point to point wiring, superb build and looks. I'm pairing it with Fritz Carrera BE speakers in my study, and I can honestly say it's the best sound I've had in this particular room so far.

Thank you @arafiq that's nice to hear, I think I'm going to hold out for a SET amp but almost pulled the trigger on these beauties, still thinking about it.

@fatdaddy2

Exactly, I think this buy amercian thing is stale now.

I would suggest the OP to seriously Consider the LM-845 Premium Version. Bypass the built in Pre-amp with out outboard Pre-amp.

You can also buy a outboard pre-amp later, The LM-845 Prem Version is a better class better reliability unit than the local Chinese LM version that is being flogged for pennies by Chinese Distributors on Aliexpress and other Chinese sites.

Stick to a dealer, this way support and parts will be free. The Premium version was built for higher reliability and is sold at a higher cost from factory.

@phantom_av The LM is so much less money from China because you have the people who make the amp selling them. I have never seen anything saying they are different amps other than LM saying there are “fakes” out there. Who else says there are fakes of their amps out there?

I always thought that was a massive line of bs. 

For $2k less for the same amp, it’s almost worth it. 

They are not fakes, they are made for the local market which demands a cheaper price so LM uses cheaper parts in some parts of the circuit. Their is no warranty either if something goes wrong usually LM will provide the dealer with free parts for you to use at your local service centre.

@phantom_av thats interesting, thanks for the info. 
 

Does anybody know if these newer, double tube, higher power, SET amps have the same “magical sound” that the single tube, lower power amps have?

Or are you sounding the same as a PP with the same power?