Changes to older system

I’ve been listening to the Auralic Altair G1, NAD 2200PE, and the Zu ODWs, and it sounds pretty damn good now to me. Added a Musical Fidelity X10-D tube buffer, which I believe improved the highs and the dynamics. At a minimum it was a good impedance matched. Consequently, I’m thinking even more that adding a good tube preamp with a high-quality analog volume control instead of the buffer is the way to go next.

I’m so conflicted about keeping or getting rid of the Matrix 3s. Placing them as @jasonbourne52 recommended helped mitigate the highs. Tube preamp recommendations make sense. I’ve heard the NAD 2200PE sound awesome with them with the right preamp. I’ve always thought the 1600 preamp - although good - was the weakest link. I don’t think I’d get much for the Matrix 3s, and given they were a $4K speaker in the day, I have to believe with the right equipment - changing out for a tube preamp - would be more cost efficient on this system.

@2psyop glad to hear your experience with the Freya+, definitely one I’m considering. 

At the risk of losing any credibility I may have ever had among “serious” audiophiles, I’ve had some fun playing around with two items from Parts Express on this system as proofs of concept on adding in tubes:

- FX Audio Tube-03 Tube Preamp - Lots of stuff on the interwebs about this one, so for under $50 as a proof of concept, why not?

- Dayton Audio HTA20BT - My GF says, “you just love that little amp,” and she’s right! I got it for under $150 for a kitchen system, so again, why not try it out?

Either way, in the world of audio equipment, both seem to illustrate that two wrongs - bright metal dome tweeters and even cheap tube gear with rolled off highs - can and do, in fact, make a right. I prefer both of them to the NAD gear, especially on the highs. I can only imagine how good the 2200PE would sound with a good tube preamp like the Freya+, so I’m still looking.

I replaced a sold state preamp with a tube preamp and it really made a huge difference (Parasound P3 to Schiit Audio Freya Plus) The bass and soundstage opened up and the sound is more organic. Whatever tube amp you decide upon (if you do) make sure you have the ability to add a subwoofer. In fact if you were to decide upon a unit like the Freya, It would leave you plenty of cash to add a sub or even try new speakers. There are may choices in the $1K to $2K price range that would be killer. Zu, Tekton Design, KLH, Klipsch, Vandersteen come to mind. I added new speakers to a second audio system, Tekton Double Impact SE and they knock my socks off with 28 watts per side.

Just ordered an Auralic G1 Altair at the recommendation of a guy at Zu. He also recommended some tube integrated amps - one Luxman and two Icon Audio in my price range of $2-4k. Just picked up a used Audio Nirvana EL-84 to get a sense for the sound of that tube in a PP configuration on the Zu ODWs. A bit more oomph and better bass control. I still may prefer the SET sound from the TubeCube 7, but the AN EL-84’s starting to sound much better the more hours I put in it. I have a Decware SE34I.6 on order, but I’m playing around with other amps until it’s in a year from now. Also just read that Steve’s working on a 300B design that sounds intriguing.

Oh, I do love them!  I fretted about spending so much on one component, but was somewhat flush with cash from selling my record collection and splurged.  I don’t regret spending the money, and have enjoyed my DWs and PowerNode immensely.  

@16f4 I’d be surprised if you didn’t love the ODWs… I certainly do.

I got some of the last batch of Zu Audio Dirty Weekends. They sound great with my PowerNode 2i.

I’d replace the speakers first rather than trying to put a bandaid on them with tubes, and you probably don’t wanna run your Matrix 3s with a tube amp as they generally require some power to get the best out of them. Those older metal tweets are likely the biggest source of the brightness you’re hearing so fix the source of the problem rather than jumping through expensive hoops to get them to sound better. Given what you’re looking for I think you should give the LSA-20 Signatures a good look — they are available here direct from the manufacturer for only $1699/pr. They’ll definitely add more bass to your system, and their silk dome tweets will very likely tame your brightness issue without sacrificing detail. Read the reviews.

After that I’d upgrade the preamp as it’s the heart of your system and greatly affects the sound of your overall system or, even likely better and more cost effective, get good integrated that’ll upgrade your amp at the same time. Then I’d do a good DAC, and then I’d wrestle with cables. That’s what I’d do FWIW.

@soix @audphile1 @mesch I’d suspected I would replace the speakers, so I’d ordered a set of Zu Audio Omen Dirty Weekends that recently came in. That said, I put those upstairs while the other system was downstairs, and now I’ve decided both to upgrade the old system, as well as build a new system upstairs around the Zus. I hear people have a love/hate relationship with Zu, but I love them! Right now I’m playing them using a TubeCube 7 from Tube Depot (3.5wpc) I had using an old Sonos Connect and cheap 24/192 DAC, and they sound great - believe it or not. I’d appreciate any recommendations particularly for an integrated tube amp, streamer, and DAC for that setup too.

@holmz @audphile1 You’re spot on with the sub recommendation. Got a used SVS SB-3000, and it’s helped with bass extension and seems to help the balance overall. The SVS website and app were enormously successful in setting it up and getting it integrated; although, I’d venture that, like most of us, I’m still refining that integration.

@jasonbourne52 Thanks for the placement recommendations - extremely helpful!

@ghdprentice I also thought a tube preamp may help, and I’m currently looking at an Audio Research SP-8. Unfortunately I’m only using digital sources, so the phono stage would be wasted, but I always loved that preamp nonetheless. Thoughts on that anyone, or any other tube preamp recommendations?

Forgot to add, use your existing cables as a baseline. You can explore upgrades there with the new system.

@ideal8592 You state that you have a budget of 2K per component. I assume that you are planning on replacing the entire system. If this is not true please advise.

Given my assumption is correct,  I would 1st find a pair of speakers that meet your criterion regarding tonal balance and plays well in your room. I would then consider the purchase of an integrated amplifier that mates well with said speakers. Your budget would support 4K for speakers and 3K for the integrated. 

If I am not mistaken your Cambridge CNX is a streamer/DAC. You might research AG threads on Streamers and DACs then post another AG thread under Digital regarding an up grade to your source. 

It is a process. Take your time and enjoy the journey. 

I would not do any upgrades to the current preamp and amp. It’s unlikely to make a significant difference and you will never recoup that investment. 
Best upgrade path in my opinion would be speakers. Something like the GoldenEar Triton 3 used. You would solve you brightness and bass issues.
If you don’t want to part with your current speakers consider adding a subwoofer which would fill in the missing bass and tame the treble since it most likely sticks out due to lack of bottom end extension. The challenge with adding a sub is properly integrating it.

I wouldn’t worry about cables. Monster cables are not great but they’re not your problem.

Also consider adding some room treatment. GIK Acoustics make good panels and they’re not expensive. You can upgrade speakers and get few panels and stay within your $2,000 budget.

@ghdprentice recommendation of tube preamp is also a good approach. You can pick up a used Rogue RP-1 preamp for around $1,000. Combine that with a sub as it has 2 pairs of RCA outs one of which you can use to drive the sub

Good luck!

I suppose you play “House” music on that system @zimmer266 ?
😎

I have experience with an NAD 3150, and some Snell EII speakers. It was a very pleasing combo, and I liked it so much that rather than sell it I gave it to close friends. They play the system daily with their LPs and CDs, and I have somewhat regular visiting privileges.

The Snells, in spite the back firing tweeter, are placed in corners for the sake of furniture layout and owners preference. I think we used brown zip cord for speaker cables. Decent bass, not bright, and sweet vocals. It’s surprisingly good. 🥃

I would try placing the speakers right against the wall to take advantage of boundary reinforcement. That is what my Snell Type A's use. Contrary to what above poster rickysnit claims I find no sonic differences between any cables. Including power cords. I have that NAD 1600 preamp in my collection. It and the 2200 amp are excellent! Yes, you can buy new gear for thousands of $$$$ more but sonic differences would be minimal! I'd consider getting a transport and DAC for what I assume is a nice CD collection. Regarding B&W speakers: they have been known for a long time as having particularly bright treble. Placed against the wall and firing straight out will help alleviate this.

Actually, wires are the last thing I’d worry about

Depends on if new equipment is desired. I used to take an equipment first approach, now to the point of tuning my equipment with cables. Once a non-believer in cables to sound, it's now one of the main things I've found to make a huge difference. Sometimes to the extent it sounds like I've swapped out the component..

First and most obvious choice is cabling, but what?

Actually, wires are the last thing I’d worry about here, but a lot has changed/improved over the past 30 years so I think a complete overhaul is in order. Start by identifying which speakers really grab you and then I’d recommend finding an integrated amp that has enough power to drive the speakers and is a good sonic match for them. For a source I’d recommend an Innuos Zen Mk 3 that you can load all your CDs into and have all your music at your fingertips, and it’s also an excellent streamer so you can explore worlds of new music — much of it in high res. Only then would I address the cables. Anyway, that would be my plan of attack FWIW, and best of luck

Do you solder? I've been experimenting a lot with copper, cables, re-purposing and various sounds on mid-range equipment, much of it NAD too. A few days ago I made some jumper interconnects (pre-out/main-in) from 12AWG 240v rated Home Depot ROMEX and was very surprised with the results, a deep defined bass with light airy highs. I'd probably get beaten up by this post, but if you solder, it would be a $20 experiment which might surprise you and bring a completely new dimension to the equipment. It's cheap by the foot, and I'd give it a shot with the speakers too - it's a lot of copper (albeit not refined like OFC) but gives a maximum throughput.

I would start with the preamp. I have been a long time appreciator of NAD and have owned a couple.

I think a tubed preamp could have a big impact / improvement on your system. In an attempt to recommend something cost effective… probably Rouge. A tubed preamp for sure.. an older Audio Research, VAC, or Conrad Johnson all sound like they would be really complementary.

I’d throw these in, they’ll make the difference. I’d also find some thick OCC speaker cable, that will make a change for the better as well.

I’m a NAD fan too, always a great sound.

The easy and cheap stuff…

Overall I still enjoy the sound, but I’ve always thought it was bright and bass shy.

One could add a subwoofer.

A DSP would be a way to alter the frequency response.
Or something like a TDAI 3400 which can do mostly the <500 Hz part.

First and most obvious choice is cabling, but what?

It is easier for a cable to alter the bass to be less.

If the speakers have a rear port they could be moved closer to the wall. And depending on their pattern, one may be able to toe them out a bit??