CD ripping for the lower end.

n80 "I have a decent hifi system. I listen to CDs mostly. Thinking about going modestly digital just to test the waters"

This does not make any sense based on the information you have provided here you are already digital!

I don’t know what you mean. Yes, I’m using a CD player. And yes I have streamed Tidal and played music off iTunes both via an RCA patch cablefrom the laptop If that qualifies as”digital” then yes, I’ve gone “digital” and I misrepresented myself. 

But I don’t think that changes the nature of my two questions. 

Why would there be a loss in quality between WAV and FLAC? I know that FLAC is compressed but it is still lossless. Is quality lost in uncompressing the file?

Anyway, yes, I would probably like to have tags and such. Does AIFF support tags/metadata?

Also, thanks for the reference to XLD. I’ll look that up.

Free XLD on your Mac is the way to go. Rip them to AIFF if you want to use with iTunes(which I hate), Audirvana+, Amarra or anything else. It supports tags, art etc. and is lossless. With AIFF you can download same files to your iphone for portable or car listening. FLAC is a nuisance in appleland, as they don't support it. You can convert FLAC to AIFF with many free or cheap software programs.
On mac, it's a worthwhile small investment to buy the Yate app to manage/edit your tags. 
Your 2nd step is on the right track. Just skip the 1st step. iTunes sux.
If you rip to AIFF or FLAC you will also be able to eventually copy the files to a true NAS if you decide to upgrade and then still use the mac for accessing the server, ripping to the server on your network etc. 
FYI, one of the worst things about building a library in iTunes is that art is embedded on the songs in a way that when you copy the files elsewhere, you lose all the art. Rip to AIFF, save cover.jpg to each album's folder(XLD does this automatically). Then you will have a portable, extractable library including art. Cheers,
Spencer

Hey n80
CDs are digital.  The digits are stored on a disc, are read by a scanning laser, and then fed to a DAC contained within the player.
That is what Clearthink was getting at.  You are interested in moving the digits from your CDs to have them reside in one place, on a Hard Drive.
   WAVis total uncompression.  FLAC compresses the digits a bit, but nothing like MP3 or it’s equivalents.  The digits are then mostly uncompressed on playback.  Think of it as jamming socks into a drawer.  When you pull out the smooshed item, it will probably look just fine when you put them on your feet.  A real nit picker, like your wife or mother, may notice a slight inconsequential wrinkle.  Most people can’t hear a difference between FLAC and WAV, or Apple Lossless, but perhaps an Audio Professional like audioenginr can.
Where FLAC really shines is in the handling of metadata 

Look into volumio or Picore player. 

Let's clarify something:

Lossless vs. Compression

Lossless means the bits played are identical to the bits copied. 

FLAC and ALAC compress but are lossless. 

MP3 , Ogg and other formats attain even more compression by throwing away a lot of the data in the recording.

A WAV file typically is lossless (PCM) But not always the case. More here:

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/560011/compressed-and-uncompressed-wav-files

Thanks guys. A couple of things:

I know that CDs are digital. I was around when they came out. I guess what I don’t know is what the proper term is for using a computer to store and play digital files. I’m sure there must be a catchy phrase for that or at least a confusing acronym that assures the instant recognition of noobs. ;-)

And even though it might be not be apparent, I also get the difference between lossless and lossy, compressed and non-compressed. Image files are analogous and I’m fairly well versed in that. What confused me is that audioengr said there is a slight loss of SQ with FLAC vs WAV and I’m not sure why that would be the case and have not been able to confirm that this is true doing a little more research. So I’m still curious about that.

Also, in terms of metadata, I don’t need much. Album title, artist, track names and times. That’s about it. Cover art would be nice but not critical.

Appreciate references to various apps but again, the old iMac is not going to support any of them. So for now, iTunes is my only option. Those apps will be options if the old MacBook Pro gets that job later. It is 10 years old but will run most of the software mentioned above, which I have noted and will look into.

And it sounds like I will be best served ripping the CDs on my MacBook using XLD and then transferring them to the old iMac. It also sounds like AIFF is going to be the best bet for me since my metadata needs are pretty minimal.

I will probably have all these files on a portable HD so when I move up to the MacBook I can play them through Audirvana or Amarra.

But finally, why the hate for iTunes for someone with modest requirements? (Not arguing, just asking, and in regard to iTunes my only concern would be sound quality....my library will be small and as mentioned, metadata requirements will be minimal).

Thanks for all the help.

George

+1 for XLD

Rip to aiff

iTunes is underrated by many.  The iTunes remote works great. 

Good plan and zero $ risk.

So doing some research and considering advice given here my current plan is:

Get XLD (free) for MacBook.
Rip to AIFF onto external HD.
Use iMac/iTunes (free) via Schiit Modi 2 Uber (paid $110) for now.

Purchase Bitperfect ($10) now. Compare SQ with Bitperfect from MacBook vs iMac with iTunes. 

If big difference, stick with Bitperfect for a while with plan to try out Audirvana and Amarra.

At some point consider Schiit Modi Multibit ($250 new). That will probably be my endpoint since CDs are still my primary medium.

Great advice from Audiogon, thanks,

George

George, I understand where you are coming from as I traveled the same road not too long ago. The main difference is I am not using an Apple product to use as a server. I now use a NAS and run through window machines (several) running JRiver on them all.

After first ripping in a compressed flac I ended up re-ripping in a non-compressed flac files as space was not an issue when I went to the NAS. This option is not available to you (flac) with the powerbook. Whatever format you end up ripping to just make sure it is uncompressed as any can be convered later if necessary. It will be easier than re-ripping as I ended up doing...

Computer Audio is a Generic Term that encompasses using a PC or a modified Linux Computer as a server.
i am currently ripping files to a NAS.  I use dbpoweramp to rip, as I could detect an audible difference between it and iTunes.  Ymmv

There is a belief that the extra and slightly random timings involved in decompressing FLAC, ALAC, etc. cause a degradation in sound quality, while WAV, requiring none of this CPU effort, does not.

I have never ever heard this to be true. Especially not using USB connections.

I pretty much believe this to be pure BS. 

Best,

E

n80,

I have ripped pretty much everything in iTunes and it works, but it is not as great as it could be when it comes to metadata. On the other hand, I am quite obsessive about that so it may not be of any problem for you.

After years of doing everything (ripping-wise) through iTunes, I bought dB-Poweramp and am happy I did. For $80, it does whatever I need and then some. And it does not ask me if I want to update it every time I open it. dB-Poweramp is a breeze when converting files from whatever to whatever, except for DSD. I know nothing about free software, but this works great.

In your case, first rip everything as AIFF. Along the way, make sure to copy files on a separate hard drive or two. You can put metadata in iTunes or in (in my case) dB-Poweramp. Most of the time, it will find it for you but sometimes it is not that correct. I am not sure about iTunes, but dB-Poweramp can look it up online for you. Results may be iffy, but if you are not too picky...

I am not sure what the problem with iTunes embedding the cover art in the file may be, but I have never lost it during conversion.

Once you have everything on that separate hard drive, convert it FLACs, Apple Losless, whatever you like, and store it separately. Then you can play all you want. As many times as you want. dB-Poweramp does preserve all the data, including cover pictures, as far as I could see. No need to think too hard about it.

I would suggest you keep AIFF on your computer and use it for that DAC, stationary system, and loading your iPhone.

If your portability includes a car, especially anything relatively new, you may want to remember where you put that FLAC hard drive. Most of the cars I have tried do not play AIFF from the attached storage device. They will all play it from a connected iPhone, though. At the same time, it seems that FLAC became an accepted standard. I tried plain 16/44.1 FLACS and 24/192 and it always worked. Your car may vary, of course but this is the general direction things may be going these days. You can load all 150 CDs on an SD card/jump drive, stick it in the car, and never think about what song you have on your iPhone or not.

In summary, I have iTunes with AIFF that I use only for loading my SONY server (that will switch to FLAC soon). I have dB-Poweramp to convert almost (not DSD) all I have to FLAC. I have all of that in FLAC that I use for loading Walkman (digital one), and that I have put in cars.

When comparing AIFF and FLAC at home, I have never found any difference. Cars do quite well with MP3, if you want to save even more space. In fact, I have a feeling they are tuned for that.

@n80

I agree with plan to use iTunes with BitPerfect to start.  That is what I do and the SQ is quite good.  The SQ with and without BitPerfect is large and instantly noticeable.  I think BitPerfect probably largely ameliorates the negative reputation of iTunes, although I should bite the bullet and try out the others.

I also second the suggestion to try a MultiBit Schiit DAC, the step up from the Uber level was the first time I thought digital sounded like music.

Get dBpoweramp and rip to flac. With xld it’s very hard too have any control over folders and sleeves. I have used both, and also Pono. dBpoweramp is best. 

One of the main challenges to overcome with digital playback is noise (many types including electrical, RFI, EMI, etc.) coming from the digital player (i.e. computer or network steamer/player). This is especially an issue with older devices outputting the digital music to the dac via USB. In the last couple of years manufacturers have greatly improved USB outputs in high end audio purpose built players. OTOH, macs & PCs have USB outputs not optimized for audio sound quality. That's why so many approaches have been utilized to attack the problem including: dual-headed USB cables that separate power from signal)
filter boxes that disengage the power leg of a single USB cable
decrapifiers
upgraded linear power supplies
low power linux players running few proceses

For all these reasons stepping up in SQ at reasonable cost for most of those in the know involves going from a full purpose computer running high power and an O/S running tons of processes that don't involve audio to a single purpose built low power player, regardless of whether the storage is local or in another room and connected via network(NAS).

When you make that change you'll probably change software too, although you might not. Whatever choices you make now should position you to make those changes without having to convert all your files or edit all your metadata. One example is that albumartist is a key metatag field in many software programs and often ripping won't populate it. Do yourself a huge favor and edit your metadata when you rip each disc and populate that field with artist name or soundtrack title or whatever else might be the thing you most want to look up your disc by. Cheers,
Spencer

Thanks guys, a lot of good info here.

One glitch in my plan: The Schiit Modi 2 Uber will not work with the OS on the old iMac according to Schiit's website. I'll try it but doubt that it will interface properly.

So, I may be using the MacBook anyway.

Glupson, you mention $80 for dB-PowerAmp but I see the single license for $39.

Finally, an admission. When I do A/B tests between a CD verses iTunes/MacBook via an RCA patch cable through the headphone jack I do not hear a huge amount of difference. A little thinner, a little less rich, but even then I'm wondering if I'm really hearing that difference since the test is not blinded. I certainly chalk that up to my newbie audiophile ears but the point being that with decent ripping software, BitPerfect and this low end DAC I will probably be fine.

I hear reviews saying that the Modi 2 Multibit sounds noticeably better than the Modi 2 Uber while I have heard other reviews say not so much. I'm trying not to get on the upgrade treadmill.....

n80,

You caught me with $39 as I was writing from memory. However, I am quite sure it was more than $39 in my case and I honestly think it was somewhere close to $80. I did install it on more than one computer so maybe that is the difference. In any case, I think it was worth $80 that, now I know, I might have not even paid.

At the same time, I would like to emphasize the last paragraph in sbank's post above. Metadata gets messy. Album artist is really important one. Put some name you know album as. Let's say, Willie Nelson. As album artist, make sure you put Willie Nelson and check it is on every song. That way, when you look for Willie Nelson, it will show up in Willie Nelson folder regardless of the fact that each song on that album is sang by Willie Nelson and someone else. I am not explaining it that clearly, but listen to sbank and do yourself a huge favor by fixing metadata while ripping. In case you do listen to classical, too, brace for impact. Metadata scavenged from the Internet is a total jungle. Eventually, I rewrote each and every of them in some way that would be later easier to figure out what is what. For example, just getting them from the Internet put two Mozart Requiems (different performances) together as one album, etc. You may not notice it initially, but at the moment you do you will not be happy.

Get an Airport Express to sit with your stereo system.  Or you can have a really, really long optical cable.  Airport Express has a jack on the back that takes a mini-cable, but also takes a slim size optical out in the same slot...not everyone knows that.  Using the mini-jack RCA out, people have said the DAC on the Airport Express isn't too bad...but you can use your own or a new one.  BTW, FLAC is the same as the .WAV at the point you're listening to the files...its lossless.  WAV is big and not losslessly compressed.  You will not notice any lag in decompress time.  Playing what stored on your computer is better because CD's get dust and scratches so you're not listening to the same copy each time...just like vinyl...but there is error correction etc.  Once you've ripped your CD, put it in a closet in a binder.  CD's die in less than 50 years.  Homemade CD's die sooner.

Depending on what apps you use (even itunes), you can DJ your songs from your iphone, ipad or whatever directly to the Airport Express into your stereo.  Ditch the CD player for your stereo unless it has a $2000 DAC with selectable filters built-into it.

Happy listening!

"Once you've ripped your CD, put it in a closet in a binder. CD's die in less than 50 years."

Huh, some of mine are closer to that than I thought. Who would have expected that, I still feel it is a new technology.

On a more practical note, do not forget that hard drives of all kinds die, too. It seems to me much sooner than 50 years. Make multiple back-ups.

Here is an update:

Got the Schiit Modi 2 Uber today. 
It works just fine with the old iMac.
Ripped a CD (Gaucho by Steely Dan) into iTunes-ALAC
Played it back through the Schiit.
It sounds very good but A/B testing shows it not to be as good as CD. Close but not as rich or full. Generally would not spend quality listening time with this level of SQ. Fine for background listening.

I have downloaded XLD and am ripping Gaucho into my MacBook...although I found that XLD will also work on the old iMac. We'll see how that sounds via iTunes as well.

Then I'll get BitPerfect on the MacBook and see how the XLD ripped CD sounds. If I'm happy, I'll stop there. 

If not, will get JRiver or Amarra or Audirvana and try that.

XLD is a bit clunky and very slow. Might bite for dB-Poweramp if I decide to do a lot of CDs.

I got BitPerfect on the MacBook. It sounds better than iTunes on the iMac.

But there is still a difference between the CD and BitPerfect.

I downloaded the free trial of Audirvana and did not think it significantly better than BitPerfect.

I did blinded A/B testing with Audirvana vs the CD. I could easily and consistently identify the CD. I felt like the CD was brighter and crisper.

I did the same A/B testing with my wife as the listener. She could also easily tell there was a difference. She initially felt like the CD was a little too tinny and like Audirvana better. But after several more tests she said that even though they were different she had a hard time saying if one was better than the other.

So I'm thinking my cheap little system is good enough. Since I can't tell much difference between Audirvana and BitPerfect I'll stick with the cheaper BitPerfect. At this point I've only got about $135 in this venture.

If I absolutely knew were to effect a significant improvement I might go there but right now I'm uncertain. Maybe a better USB cable. But, not sure it is worth going to the Schiit Modi Multibit at this point. 

I RIP using iTunes to Apple Lossless (ALAC).  I use Apple Airport Express and Apple TV (and, recently, Google Chromecast Audio) devices with digital out direct to DAC.  I can run my system from my laptop, iPad, or phone.  The wireless digital signal is state of the art and the sound quality is dependent on your system (the better your system, the better the sound quality will be).

This is so easy and inexpensive it is hard for me to understand why so many seem unsatisfied with this solution.  The AEX is limited to 44.1 KHz/16.  For enthusiasts of hi-res audio, more expensive equipment will be needed.

Yes, I have experienced the difference in sound hi-res can make.  I think it is interesting, but not such an improvement of the listening experience that it justifies a priority position in my upgrade chain.  Before that, I think you will get a very pleasant "Bang-for-your-Buck" sensation if you upgrade to one of Schitt's "Multi-bit" DACS.

Multibit upgrade was significant for me.  On the other hand, why not live with what you have at the moment and when you get the bug to improve things, then move up to multibit?  Maybe find a used Bifrost which will have the advantage of either having, or could be upgraded to the Gen 5 USB board.

Agreed. The nice thing about these little Schiit products is that they hold their value fairly well. The one I have is $150 new and I got a great deal on this one for $110, in the box, like new.

This is a bit off topic but people on eBay are buying these for $145 used, without the original box when you can buy one new for $150. I don’t get that. But, that means I could probably sell mine for $110 easy and get all my money back.

Anyway, I’ll keep what I have for now. It really does sound pretty good to me. Further A/B testing confirms a difference but hard to say one is way better than the other (old Sony CD player).