No comparison, CD always sounds so cold and gritty. Vinyl is so much warmer, smoother and has better imaging and much greater depth of sound. It’s like watching the world go by through a dirty window pane when listening to a CD. Put the same LP on the turntable and Voila! Everything takes on more vibrancy, fullness and texture.
I know exactly how digital works. Dynamic range and signal to noise ratio are specifications that are enhanced in the digital format. You place too much significance on specs. Trust your ears; they're not digital.
You apparently don’t know how digital works. Digital has the potential for much higher dynamic range and much higher signal to noise ratio than analog can ever have. If you like your music compressed and noisy more power to you.
Oh, pardon me, but I didn't address your question about a digital recording made on a digital tape being a real time representation of a musical performance. No, it is not. Being digital precludes that. You must not know what the difference between digital and analog is.....let me explain. Digital is a zero or one, on / off, either / or sort of thing. Analog captures the linear nuances that digital will never replicate. Keep on biting and byting if you wish.
Once again, analog is a REAL TIME REPRESENTATION OF A MUSICAL PERFORMANCE. Digital is an approximation of the same. Get it?
What in the world does that mean?
Both digital and analog can be representations of a musical performance and both are an approximation!
(And if that is a refrain of the tired old "analog captures the sound continuously, digital chops it up and misses parts" then that’s just a myth and a misunderstanding).
Yeah,a decent disc costs less than twenty bucks (the last disc I bought was JJ Cale and Eric Clapton; Road to Escondito). Maybe your're getting ripped off; it wouldn't surprise me. The last record I bought costs considerably more, but it was worth it. Cheers! Pay as much as you can for that digital stuff. It will reward you in your own mind eventually.
Digital is more prevalent, it's cheaper. You have it, don't you? Does that answer your question? Once again, analog is a REAL TIME REPRESENTATION OF A MUSICAL PERFORMANCE. Digital is an approximation of the same. Get it?
And so if digital sound is so bad why do so many audiophiles continue to enjoy and purchase digital equipment? According to the vinyl only tribe, they must have tin ears. But what if that same person who enjoys digital sound also enjoys vinyl sound? Does that person still have tin ears?People love their tribal allegiances. Try being bi-tribal, really is a nice place to be.
Dear @milpai : """
BTW, I was not saying that analog is bad. So please don't feel offended. """
Certainly not, maybe a not good explanation from my part or a misunderstood on my post to you.
The main issue when we have digital vs analog discussions or tube vs SS electronics or MM vs LOMC cartridges is that the proponent on each side normally are " married " with their proposals and never are WILLING TO really analize the " facts " of the other side and never are willing to try the other side experiences, many times like in this thread the proponent and its followers give no single true fact why they have reasons for their way of thinking and NEVER give the facts why the other side ( in this case: digital. ) is wrong.
The adjectives they use are like: gestalt, warm, richness and the like. I already explain in wide way about and reasons&facts why are wrong adjectives. Who tolds all those gentlemans that home audio system is mainly something " subjective "? and I ask because that's what I usually had in my mind till I experienced " experiences " that told me that is " objective " not " subjective only "
Why things normally work in that way: because, like in this thread, NO one of " that side " is willing to learn. Maybe because they could think they already learned all what they must do. Yes, they live in an " audio life error " and you can't do nothing about and that's the why in my first post to you.
I love MUSIC, love analog and love digital too.
Btw, in the Universe of home audio systems the 70% of audiophiles own " average " systems ( average=mediocrity. Look in a dictionary. ), 15% own very bad systems ( lower than average/mediocrity. ) and 15% at the top.
On each case the main differences to stay on one or the other side of the 3 categories are the MUSIC/AUDIO TRUE AND REAL KNOWLEDGE LEVELS AND SKILLS of each one of us and if we always are WILLING TO LEARN.
The only thing keeping CDs from moving out and taking charge is the pernicious and tenacious background scattered laser light problem. Something wonderful is going to happen. 😳
For those of us that have made our minds up, there is no debate. You say digital - I say analog. I have more CD's than records but prefer listening to records. I don’t have any "treated" CD’s nor any marinated records. However, most of them are what you might say well seasoned.
It’s very hard to prove the case for either CD or LP. Obviously some CDs of the same recording sound different on different releases, e.g., compression, remastering. Some CDs of the same recording apparently sound different from different countries, or even different cities of manufacture. Treated CDs sound better than untreated CDs. The same CD can sound quite different on different systems. LPs can sound very different on different systems. You can even prove it when one person reports his digital system sounds better than his vinyl system, or vice versa. Thank your lucky stars this debate is not going away any time soon.
This is the same old argument and old. My collection of CD's does not sound shrill, grainy, overly bright unless that was the recording in the 1st place.
CD sound excellent as good as vinyl and in cases better, I own both. Having said that CD sound very bad and the vinyl better. It always gets back to mastering on both formats and includes the king of them all now days streaming. Highly compressed anything sounds bad, CD releases have this, vinyl not as much so because of tracking issues of the needle. I sold many bright and muddy sounding LP's in the golden era where they had Record selling shows a few times a year in the early '80s and late 60's and '70s.
I have CD’s that sound better than my 1st pressing of the vinyl issue. In fact, depending on the pressing the same recording could really go from great to transistor radio sounding with lack of bass etc. I never brought LP's with the RE stamped on the cover corner, that meant reiisue and you never knew, and as years marched on in general they sounded nothing like the 1st pressings.
So I own both, I grew up with vinyl though and that is always a 1st love, the LP covers, and the size, but sound wise is a case by case better, just like the vinyl days when vinyl sold more in a month than what is sold in a year now, a lot of vinyl sucked, in the 70’s it really got bad with compression used on rock recordings, the overdubbing and so forth, so sound was muddy to overly bright, and CD cannot change any of that unless that release was totally remixed much like the Beatles and the Elvis releases over the past several years with currently Sgt. Pepper and the White LP the Beatles.
Nothing wrong the current CD format and players, like vinyl, improved from the 20’s to the 50’s vinyl sound improved as well as recording quality. Clean your LP’s before play, clean your CD with a quality car wax both sides and you will have long term enjoyment on the format of your choice. Streaming is the future sales are in the billions and with Tidal and others for 99% of consumers why would they want to buy. $11.99-19.99 a month for unlimited streaming music. People don’t just sit and listen to music anymore that era was for the boomers like hot rods were that was the thing, last 30 years digital, gaming, and 100% portable music and today iPhones and earbuds, XM/Sirus radio for the road.
Off the shelf CDs and stock off the shelf electronics really don’t have a chance. But they will have a chance, a very good chance when you roll up your sleeves and start treating the CDs and implementing tweaks, you know, like isolation, aftermarket fuses. Otherwise, forget about it. You’ll be living in Muzak land all your life. Your CDs will sound shrill, grainy, thin, threadbare, whimpy, bass shy, two dimensional, boring, discombobulated, metallic, honky, bloated, and like paper mache.
Prof, I'm comparing vinyl to digital that's as good as digital gets, and vinyl is better; more subjectively than objective, but when you get into what I call the "deep listening zone"; it's no contest, vinyl is where the music resides.
I know what Orpheus means about the "Gestalt" of vinyl.
It really gets me as well. There’s just an "it" factor that draws me in and gives me this big "aaah..." when listening.
That doesn’t make digital sound bad to me though. Sometimes I really enjoy going back to digital for it’s own virtues.
My previous vinyl rig was more modest - a Micro Seiki turntable and cheap old Rotel phono stage. At that point vinyl still had an "it" factor that made it different than digital - a classic "warmer, crisper" sound.But it also sounded a bit on the nostalgic, slightly lower-fi side vs digital. I’d still tend to listen to a lot more digital.
But when I upgraded my vinyl rig to a much better turntable, cartridge and phono stage, that’s when vinyl seemed to leap ahead of digital in terms of what I wanted to play. Now it doesn’t have that slightly creaky nostalgia sound, but rather the noise floor is so low, the detail so clear and smooth, the sound so big, rich yet punchy and focused, that it just tends to sound "better" or more satisfying to my ears than digital (generally speaking). It’s not better technically, but it has a texture, heft and sense that it is that much more detached from the speakers making the sound while simultaneously having a "right there in the air in front of me" texture that blows me away.
I just received 3 albums I bought on discogs, from 1977, 1980 and 1984.All three are mint condition and dead silent wax, with absolutely gorgeous sound quality and the musical content just makes me giddy.Flicking through pixels looking at selections to play via my phone app (streaming to system) just isn’t nearly as fun and satisfying a way to interact with my music collection. And...choke...CDs. Yuck! I don’t mean yuck for sound quality - CDs are great and I ripped all mine lossless. But CDs themselves as physical objects just absolutely suck IMO. I was just down rifling through some of my many hundreds of CDs stored in my basement, and they aren’t pretty lookin’, don’t feel nice in the hand, always feel on the verge of snapping (which they often do), and just have no appeal to me these days.
I get that others, of course, have different experiences and really enjoy everything about CDs.
And also I would not ever try to push anyone toward vinyl. If you aren't in to it, it's a hassle of sorts. And can be expensive. But if someone asks why I like it so much, I'll tell them.
So Orpheus, you’re saying that CD is good for lazy people who don’t want to learn how to do new things? You’re probably right. Most people are simpletons who don’t know much of anything and have even worse judgement. Thanks for the compliment!
All day I have been comparing Analog to HD Drawdown; now that's where you have more of a level playing field.
The first record up was Santana "Abraxas" on HD Drawdown. It was fantastic in every way; 3D and all.
Next came my 5K analog rig. That included at least 1K of tweaks; plus as a result of my experience and knowledge, it hits above the 5K expenditure. Before I began this contest, I thought it would be a draw, but the analog had "slightly" more air and black background.
Where the analog clearly exceeded the digital was in "gestalt". Sometime ago, when an audiophile fanatic would call me over to listen with him, he would use this word "Gestalt" a lot, that was before I even knew what it meant.
"Gestalt" an organized whole that is perceived as more than the sum of its parts. This is a very important word to an audiophile; it's one that you learn the definition of by "Osmosis"; that's when you listen to music with such intensity that you hear into the depths of the musician; that's the difference between sound and music.
While the HD Drawdown sounded as good as I thought it could get, the rig put me in a trance. Here again, we are talking about a subjective emotional response. The bottom line is; the analog was only better after you reached another level of listening and hearing into the music.
If a person didn't already own a ton of vinyl, I wouldn't recommend analog over digital, when you can get so much without plunking down 5K. No, I don't have time to listen to anyone who is going to tell me you can get it cheaper than that, and that's 5K plus experience and knowledge, which is every bit as important as the 5K, because just plunking down 5K will not get you what analog has to offer; that's why some guy will say I plunked down 10K and still didn't get what was promised.
I would rather carry a hard drive full of hi res digital files than 800 lbs of vinyl. DJ’ing all vinyl and moving it all around when you move gets old. Throw tubes into the fold if you seek that warmth vinyl gives.
Dear @rauliruegas "As I said, to learn we have to be willing to learn. Here no way my friernd
"While my previous post was for OP, I do not understand why you felt the need to reply to me. The only reason I feel that could be is because you felt that the OP needs some support from a like minded person, or another analog supporter. BTW, I was not saying that analog is bad. So please don't feel offended. I have listened to excellent analog setups, and some not-so-good ones. The only issue is it takes $$$$ for an LP setup to surpass the $$ digital one.When I get beyond 65+ and have enough time at hand, I will consider LPs. Current situation does not allow the time needed to invest in LPs and the care that setup needs. But hey, at least I have an attitude to learn. You continue to learn, at whatever age you are. The day you stop learning, you grow old my friend.
The comments about new vinyl not being on par with originals from decades ago is a fallacy. I have new vinyl by Vanessa Hernandez and Lyn Stanley that is of outstanding quality....the Lyn Stanley record is one in which she is using Frank Sinatra's 40's vintage tube microphone. I don't think you can even get it in a digital format.
@sleepwalker65, I asked you a simple question on why you created this thread, and you got it removed by the moderator. I know, for some questions, there are no answers or the answers could embarrass oneself. But getting it removed actually proved my point that this thread was created because of the "Turntable got crushed by the CD". I hope you get a chance to listen to some nice digital with well recorded music.
After about late 1990’s to 2000’s, most vinyl music is first recorded digitally in the studio and then pressed onto the vinyl. There is HARDLY any direct analog recordings any more.
So, everyone who THINKS that they are listening to analog on vinyl, wake up and come to the 21st century.....
Why would you think your second paragraph follows from your first?
You do realize that the majority of vinyl people are listening to are older recordings coming from the analog age, don’t you? Not the 90's to 2000s when vinyl was being produced ever more rarely. Not only is the second hand "crate digging" market for old vinyl by far the lions share of the vinyl bought, but even the chart topping vinyl in Billboard tends to be titles from the golden analog age.
The vast majority of the vinyl I own is analog source.
And even with new vinyl releases, while many come from digital masters, depending on the title efforts are made to go back to the analog masters.I have plenty of such newly pressed vinyl.
And even in the case of digital masters used for vinyl, they also can sound fabulous (it always comes down to the master sound quality, whether the original is analog or digital).
After about late 1990's to 2000's, most vinyl music is first recorded digitally in the studio and then pressed onto the vinyl. There is HARDLY any direct analog recordings any more.
So, everyone who THINKS that they are listening to analog on vinyl, wake up and come to the 21st century.....
For the most part, there haven’t been many great albums since the 70’s. Did you consider that before you ignorantly accused people who like vinyl of being ignorant of the recording / mixing / mastering processes used in different eras? If you feel so threatened by this discussion, why not leave? Otherwise, get a grip on your outbursts. Nobody has time for them.
After about late 1990's to 2000's, most vinyl music is first recorded digitally in the studio and then pressed onto the vinyl. There is HARDLY any direct analog recordings any more.
So, everyone who THINKS that they are listening to analog on vinyl, wake up and come to the 21st century.....
Clearly, the OP and many others in this (and the zillion identical) threads, conflate *preference* with *fact*.
This is what so often happens in the audiophile world. Someone has a subjective reaction or perception and then this becomes in their mind an objective fact from which to base some new theory.
So you get some audiophiles saying "Digital is cold, sterile, it's incapable of producing MUSIC and emotional involvement. So here's my theory for why digital just can't produce music in a satisfying manner..."
And meanwhile most of the world, including probably a majority of audiophiles, have been enjoying digital music for ages. "Huh? Digital sounds awful and can't transmit the emotion of music? Speak for yourself; we've been deeply connected and loving music delivered digitally for a long time."
(Whether the OP meant to speak only for himself, or if he meant the broad condemnation of digital sound his post seemed to make, is up to him to clear up if he wishes).
Dear @sleepwalker65; """
digital is only an imitation, analog is the real and lasting thing. """
Really? how did you arrived to that no sense statement or where did you experienced that? where?
Where are your facts, the true and real foundation for that statement.
Did you understand what @mikelavigne posted?, seems to me that you did not.
I followed @mikelavigne just from I started in Agon when I were looking for " fantastic " room audio systems and let me tell you that in Agon and in other internet forums exist several way more expensive systems that the one Mike owns.
The main difference why I always " listen " when he speaks is that almost all the other truly truly expensive systems are more hardware lovers than true MUSIC Lovers and @mikelavigne belongs to these ones.
It's not only about money but self knowledge levels. He is a MUSIC lover no mtters the media source and he is wise enough to listen and likes the digital alternative too.
IMHO, this is the kind of gentlemans where we all always have something to learn if we are willing to learn but it looks you are not and like to follow people with very low udio/music knowledge levels.
Good for you because you live hppy with and this is for you what it matters.
In the end, though, when *you* think the vinyl kills the CD and I think the reverse, in the same listening session, *neither* of us is wrong. Get over it.
Really? “Get over it”? Really? Now isnt isn’t that a conflicting picture you paint of yourself against the opinions of others? If you truly believed what you say, you’d not be threatened by this thread.
It all depends. In my library listening room I have 6 systems with 9 pairs of speakers, four cd players, 2 DACs, two turntables and more cartridges than I can count. I listen to classical, jazz and rock. With each type of music I could convince you one way or the other with the same amplification and speaker system depending on the player, DAC or turntable/cartridge combination. I can play a new to me LP and almost immediately know whether it will sound better with different preamp/amp including tube vs. ss. Just experienced this last night. Same orchestra and era. Lush symphonic piece amazing on a tube system followed by powerful piano concerto sounding like crap in comparison. Switched the amp setup. Another experience entirely. I have many of the same recordings on lp and red label. It’s often a hard choice which way to go. There is no answer, obviously. At least to me.
Clearly, the OP and many others in this (and the zillion identical) threads, conflate *preference* with *fact*. Both mediums can sound great, with recording and mastering having the greatest impact IME. In the end, though, when *you* think the vinyl kills the CD and I think the reverse, in the same listening session, *neither* of us is wrong. Get over it.
I’m a diehard vinyl fan, with thousands of records. I never really put much effort into CDs. Did appreciate the convenience of them, but didn’t really love the sterilizing.
However, when I hooked up my Oppo to my tube system (mac 275, mac 2200, Harbeth SHL5s) suddenly my CDs sounded pretty goddamned good. Something about the tubes that take the edge of the CDs, in my experience.
If the usability is the main reason people use CDs then digital files is far more superior, because you can listen forever and make playlist with the tracks you want to hear ignoring all the "bad" songs on the album you prefer to skip.
For the same reason lazy people just listening to the streming radio stations. For most of those people music is just a background in the headphones while in the subway or in the bus etc.
Passionate collectors would love to put the record on the turntable and put the needle on the record for serious listening session. Vinyl is a whole different experience, different habit, different world.
CD is retired format of digital media, let’s face it
I disagree. Some albums sound better than CDs and some CDs sound better than albums. Depending on mastering of both. When I do A-B comparisons of the same album there are advantages and disadvantages to both. I love vinyl, but it's still so much easier to place a CD and listen for up to 75 minutes without have to get up and flip a side.
“A CD player can be had for as little as $100 if your standards aren’t too high. A $500 CD player really doesn’t have much better sound quality, and neither does a $1500 or $3000 CD Player. All you get for that exorbitant price is a little better build quality. As others said, digital is only an imitation, analog is the real and lasting thing“
The OP has preconceived notions about digital playback....nothing we say or suggest otherwise would change his opinion.
If you owed a forsell air transport mk2 and a stax dac. You wouldn’t say thing like that. on the other hand if you owe old esoteric CD player or Krell then I would agree with your statement
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