CD Got Absolutely Crushed By Vinyl

Me provocative? You cannot be serious! 

I didn’t mention it, you did.

That’s pretty much what we were told about CD players all along and CDs. That error correction corrects any errors and the laser tracking servo mechanism keeps the laser on track in the face of any wobbling or fluttering. In other words CD is perfect sound forever. If EAC works as you describe copies should be much better sounding than the original in terms of sound quality. If it’s only marginally better then I’d be suspicious. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Digital never had a chance. As soon as the laser strikes the disc the game is over. The laser scattered light and the vibration and flutter of the disc prevent the real data from ever getting to the DAC. The sound quality is permanently degraded in the initial one millionth of a second and never recovers. And can never be recovered. It’s no wonder there’s been a continuous barrage of higher bit rates and sampling rates and “higher resolution” formats, upsampling, downsampling, remasters, all because the initial problems were never resolved. Hel-loo!

I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears to me you really took my statement to heart ❤️- “I never met an audiophile who didn’t think his system is the greatest.” 😀

Question, are you stockpiling eMats now? 🙄

Please note I said untreated CDs on stock systems. We’ll get there eventually....😛 I never met an audiophile who didn’t think his system was the greatest. 

fleschler736 posts02-05-2019 6:24pmI was just listening to Ramsey Lewis Trio "In Chicago" on CD and the bass on the left channel is constantly moving up and down horizontally, just like the LP, both mono and stereo versions. Also, the 3D soundfield of orchestral recordings sound just like my LPs. Who says that CDs don’t reproduce the horizontal soundfield? That’s just dumb.

>>>>As far as I can tell noone says CDs can’t produce the horizontal soundfield. Maybe you meant vertical not horizontal, hard to tell. Moving up and down horizontally kind of doesn’t make sense. When I say CDs generally sound two dimensional I’m referring to depth mostly, but also just plain blah.

“Question : is 3D Soundstaging better on LP or CD?”
(Please note one should first mention the global disclaimer : “No height information is captured in stereophonic recording”.)”

>>>>>I got as far as that comment. I’m out. Of course height is captured in the recording. Why wouldn’t it be? Height is just another one of the 3 dimensions. Otherwise, it would be a 2D soundstage. Hel-loo! Reverberant decay occurs in all three dimensions. You can’t stop it. There are many reasons why CDs do not sound as good as they could on playback systems, as I’ve been preaching recently, two of the leading culprits are lack of isolation and scattered laser light problem, that until very recently has not been addressed or even acknowledged. Plus I’ve always maintained untreated CDs in stock home systems generaliy sound two dimensional, whimsy, compressed, rolled off, bland, bass shy, unnatural, and like paper mache.

“Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or to take arms against a sea of troubles.”

No shirt, Sherlock! 

fleschler, thanks for the brave words. 

@tweak1 - Don’t let prof intimidate you. You dodged a bullet. You should thank your lucky stars. He usually responds with a whole page of philosophy.

fleschler712 posts02-01-2019 3:44amGeoffkait Okay, I misunderstood as I thought both sides of the square had double stick tape. It has a smooth, unsticky side which the CD rests on. Good. Also, I misspoke as to the Walker Talisman. Of course it is the magnetism problem that it alleviates as it has nothing to do with static of CD plaster or LP vinyl. I think I will try your invention. It may work. I know that eliminating stray laser light can enhance tracking ability. I’ve noticed the positive change occasionally when I use a cd edge trimmer and black sharpie (I said occasionally as I find that it is too infrequent and I really don’t want to put stress on the CD during the cutting operation).

>>>>looks like you dodged a bullet. As fate would have it, you’re better off not using the disc trimmer Black Sharpie, since black around the CD edge actually hurts the sound ouch! it’s the wrong color, perhaps counter-intuitively. The correct color - at least for the red portion of the scattered light - is turquoise, cyan technically. As for the remaining 75% of the scattered light, the invisible portion, well, I guess you have to use my NDM since it’s the only audiophile product that can eliminate invisible light. Fortunately, NDM also eliminates the red portion as well.

fleschler710 posts01-31-2019 1:53amWhat does the sticky tape tabs do to reduce laser light scatter?

>>>>The double sided adhesive holds the active NDM squares to the tray surface. The NDM squares is the active ingredient that absorbs/reduces background scattered laser light. The scattered light fills up the entire inside of the CD transport and the tray is a convenient place to put NDM, you know, being close to where the laser reads the data.

Does the tab have special properties?

>>>>>NDM has special properties inasmuch as it reduces ALL forms of scattered light, not only visible RED but invisible, I.E., infrared and other colors like BLUE. Thus, NDM also works for SACD, DVD, Blu Ray players. Hel-loo!

I use the Walker Talisman to reduce/eliminate static from CDs and LPs. CDs show immediate improvement upon use.

>>>>The Talisman affects the magnetic field, not the static charge.

In a Steve Hoffman forum, Machina Dynamica is ridiculed as hokum. I always thought it was an intellectual tweak parody.

>>>>Hey, what can I say? Machina Dynamica is real as a colonoscopy without anesthesia.

fleschler, the NEW DARK MATTER comes in 10 very thin plastic squares approximately 3/4 inch per side plus double-sided tape for applying the squares to the circular area of the top surface of the tray. The idea is to cover most of the area the CD sits on when you place it on the tray. For some trays the squares can be trimmed to fit. If there is a smaller circular tray for Mini discs NDM can be applied to that area, too. It’s not necessary to completely cover the tray with NDM. 75% - 80% coverage is recommended. Even less will be very audible as I was informed by a customer yesterday. The reason I say NDM is a breakthrough product is it’s the first audio product to absorb ALL scattered laser light, the red portion 25% and the invisible portion 75%. It’s the invisible portion, by far the largest portion, that is the most difficult to eliminate since it’s not amenable to absorption by colors. My previous version of Dark Matter was a spray that absorbed infrared scattered light.

I estimate the effective bandwidth of the 780 nm CD laser to be approx. 650-900 nm. All of which can get into the photodetector. The nominal laser wavelength of 780 nm is in the invisible portion of the light spectrum.

The thin plastic squares are not adhesive themselves. Thus double-sided tape is necessary to attach them to the tray. The smooth UNSTICKY side of NDM is all that’s exposed. It’s not really rocket science. 🚀

The CD does not (rpt not) spin on the CD tray per se. The CD contacts the tray only initially when you place the CD on the tray. There must be a spindle, no?

fleschler, I’m pretty sure you misunderstand what New Dark Matter is. NDM goes on the top surface of the player tray, not the CD. That’s why I challenged your player. It’s a one-time treatment for the CD, DVD, SACD, or BLU RAY player. 

Ears are simply gain devices. You can actually hear OK without them. Hel-loo! Same thing for satellite dishes, the bigger they are the more gain they provide. It’s not rocket science. 🛰

Fleschler, I challenge your cheapo player with my even cheaper player with New Dark Matter. Are you in?

Your ears are not analog or digital. But your brain is quantum mechanical.

Yes, you’re confused. Digital is a near perfect facsimile of the original waveform. It is not chopping up the sound, as you say. The problem with digital is not (rpt not) the recording or mastering for CDs. The real problem is the *playback machine*. If that problem is removed, voila! Perfect sound! 🤗

You apparently don’t know how digital works. Digital has the potential for much higher dynamic range and much higher signal to noise ratio than analog can ever have. If you like your music compressed and noisy more power to you.

I think the real question here is who’s the one getting ripped off? 😬 But if you’re happy that’s what counts.

Digital is cheaper? Really? Since when?

Pop quiz - If the recording is made digitally on digital tape isn’t that a REAL TIME REPRESENTATION OF A MUSICAL PERFORMANCE? 

The only thing keeping CDs from moving out and taking charge is the pernicious and tenacious background scattered laser light problem. Something wonderful is going to happen. 😳

It’s very hard to prove the case for either CD or LP. Obviously some CDs of the same recording sound different on different releases, e.g., compression, remastering. Some CDs of the same recording apparently sound different from different countries, or even different cities of manufacture. Treated CDs sound better than untreated CDs. The same CD can sound quite different on different systems. LPs can sound very different on different systems. You can even prove it when one person reports his digital system sounds better than his vinyl system, or vice versa. Thank your lucky stars this debate is not going away any time soon.

Off the shelf CDs and stock off the shelf electronics really don’t have a chance. But they will have a chance, a very good chance when you roll up your sleeves and start treating the CDs and implementing tweaks, you know, like isolation, aftermarket fuses. Otherwise, forget about it. You’ll be living in Muzak land all your life. Your CDs will sound shrill, grainy, thin, threadbare, whimpy, bass shy, two dimensional, boring, discombobulated, metallic, honky, bloated, and like paper mache.

Digital ever since the very beginning in terms of playback has had serious issues, it’s not really the CD per se that’s the problem. You just can’t hear it properly, that’s all. Some problems of have been figured out and solved, like isolation, others not so much. And there has been a boatload of patches that have helped. Some problems are not even known, and that can make the going pretty rough. What can I tell you? A pig wearing lipstick 💋 is still a pig 🐷

2 bits, 4 bits, 6 bits, a dollar. 🤗

Just not the uh, audio industry, Mr. Smarty Pants. 

CD has great potential. They never figured out how to deal with the scattered light problem. That’s all. They probably didn’t even know there was a problem.

As if AAD and ADD CDs don’t sound awful enough DDD CDs sound even worse. That’s the fully Monty digital experience.

The main problem with CD playback is that scattered laser light inside the transport makes its way to the photodetector where it’s detected as noise. The photodetector isn’t too swift. The Green Pen partially corrected this problem by absorbing the RED portion of the scattered light. But the RED portion is only a fraction of the total scattered light since, you know, the laser nominal wavelength is infrared - invisible, 780 nm. The good news is now you hear what CDs were always *supposed* to sound like. More to follow....