CARTRIDGE WOES?

Welcome Frank and just ignore certain stoopid people here.

Fortunately, A´gon also have intellectuals who are willing to enlighten you.
You have already met a true gentleman and a true professional :)

Ah, like you I´m revisiting the swirling sixties again and do remember vividly the Moon landing on telly. Wonderful times, full of hope and oh the music that played was so great !  Yes, I have some originals... fantastic stuff. 

Dear man, don´t give a damn about certain ignorant fools here on A´gon. Net is full of them anyway, Time -wasters, who cares for their illusions.

This: Anyone who is telling that SME 3009 is not a good arm is a moron.

This is a fact and an insult. But don´t take it personally :)

Best Regards and to certain other posters here: enjoy your darlings.

Analogue can throw up unexpected results, there are so many variables in adjustment, phono stages etc.

I owned a Linn TT in the past and changed my supex cart for the then "must have" toika cart. It was set up for me by the dealer - even so it was hard to identify any real improvement. Over the years I had similar experiences with that TT / arm and cartridges,

I now have a much more detailed and revealing TT and tonearm, cartridge changes are very apparent now. obviously the Linn was masking changes.

As to setting up carts and their performance, recently, another forum member had sent his cartridge in advance for me to setup in my tonearm for a comparison. This obviously necessitated rejigging my tone arm, as his was a Koetsu coral stone I did not mind! This gave me the chance to give it a good listen over a day or so and acclimatise myself to the sound.

When the visitor arrived we spent a good deal of the day comparing several of my cartridges with his.They all sounded different each one having it’s own strengths/characteristics.

When he left, on refitting my cart ( a Lyra), I was disappointed with the sound,  it was not as I had been hearing previously. The Koetsu had been weighty and warm but had not got the attack or spaciousness of the Lyra, it now sounded thin by comparison.

I thought I had managed to dial in the arm’s previous settings but it seemed I was wrong.
I decided to completely reset the geometry of the Lyra, incrementally adjusting the alignment etc (after protractor measuring) by ear.

I eventually arrived at a sound better than before removal, similar weight to the Koetsu but with tighter bass, greater speed and dynamics. So set up is important, however it sounds like the OP has done this well.

FWIW, I had just put new valves in my phono stage. Because of the visit I had left the phono on over night, something I don’t usually do with valve gear.
So when I re-set my cart the phono had been on for about 30 hrs continuously. This may also have some bearing on the improvement, I dont know if NOS tubes need a burn in period.

WEB QUOTE:
Do not take it personal.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/688946-sell-magnepan-3-6r-s-buy-nht-xd-2.html

""""Anyone who has looked closely at the internals of a 3.6R knows that the internal parts and wiring—and the standard of workmanship—are below par, and cannot possibly extract the best performance from this planar design...........why oh why must the 3.6R be built like a cheap transistor radio? .........their weaknesses can be disturbing. They don’t do bass particularly well, and fair poorly in the imaging department. They also lack the dynamic impact in the lower registers of good box designs........doesn’t jump out at you with the same snap and attack that box speakers provide.........not as deep as that of other speakers. .bass is somewhat lacking, both in extension and fullness, which makes the sound slightly lean..........I initially found the tweeters to be a little too bright. Instruments like trumpets, and even woodwind instruments, had too much energy and force. ............ The stock stands, flimsy at best, are victims of a design-to-a-price policy. Also disappointing are the external crossover boxes, and the way they couple to the speakers.............. In my opinion, this setup is inadequate. How can speakers that have gotten so much critical acclaim fly in the face of everything we know about the importance of construction integrity and rigidity? It is not the ultimate classical music lover’s speaker, but it is in the game. But then, the Maggies, IMO, are lousy transducers of anything *other* than classical because they’re simply not accurate enough.

I don’t know what to say. I find the treble in every Maggie I’ve heard to be pretty bad and have no capability of reproducing the bell of a cymbal (yes, I’m a drummer). Thin and wispy comes to mind.

Maggies are just about the only ribbon speaker brand left. So if you like ribbons, there you are. If you like cones and domes, you have 200 brands. So it’s not surprising. But that is still a very small and dwindling portion of the Stereophile world, let alone the real world.
think Maggies are great for certain kind of listening or for certain tastes. I can’t live with them, but many of my customers have at least a fling with them. In the end, most of them move on because of the limitations. If I only listened to classical, I’d certainly consider owning them.
I’d also prefer to own Quad ESLs over any of the Magnepans I’ve heard over the years, no contest, because I think they have superior midrange reproduction and a smoother, if slightly rolled off treble.

Now, I am not saying they don’t sound nice to *some* people. I am sure Magnepan has the technology and skill to create a ruler flat crossover/FR, but they obviously deviated from this for a reason. They *wanted* their speaker to sound the way it does. It is a very inaccurate speaker, but perhaps this colored sound is what some people will prefer. In fact, we know their speakers sell, so they are doing something right. But what they aren’t doing right is creating an accurate speaker. In fact, those Maggies are *far* from accurate. And when it all comes down to it in the end, most audiophiles seems to want an accurate speaker.

In fact, one of my beefs with Maggies is that they are *not* dynamic at all. They have to be cranked up to sound decent but only so much so you don’t blow them.

if the Maggies flattened at 6dB/octave, then they’d have a nice, flat down tilting slope. They don’t, ergo, they’re not flat no matter *how* you measure them or correct for them. The fact that you even *think* they could sum to flat is fantastically hilarious :""""



Do not take it personal. Just telling it as is.

Lookie Here..........
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=magnapan+3.6&_osacat=293&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573...


Gee, even my rarest of the rare, the holy grail of vintage speakers sold last month on the auction site at $3,800. plus $200 for S/H. And for the non-cognoscenti, Mark L., did pretty well with his ’Amati’ series 1&2.
But when the very designer himself speakers to my questions so eloquently, professionally and helpfully, t’s a little disheartening to believe the misinformed, misguided and condescending out right put-down of another person’s beliefs and there of life’s knowledge in some of the replies I received is discouraging at best.
Especially in my first post no less. With such infantile responses, I’ll just pick up my ball and jacks and leave.
So, a weeks wish for explosive diarrhea to you posters of negativity and unbelievably lofty, elitist notions of yourself’s. And too think, I was under the understanding that ’forum.audiogon’ was one of the better more friendly sites.Perhaps a few bad apples do spoil the basket.
Oh, and enjoy the music.
I’m just say’in.
Do not take it personal.
Oh, and "suck it up" while you’re at it, paaaallllllllll........
OTOH, perhaps there was a sale of those room dividers and therefore my retort is unwarranted?
I'll give that guy with the concrete listening room some quarter here though, it obvious why I do.

I too use vintage gear. I am somewhat bemused by the original poster's reaction to donc55's prognosis. I believe he is spot on. Your turntables and tonearms are not up to the job. 

Dear frankmarsi: """  I’m not coming back to be with members that can be this disruptive ... """


Frank, my post had not the disruptive attitude. Things are that some audiophiles are not really audiophiles but " hardware's lovers " but a true audiophile first than all is a music lover and discerns exactly what means that " music lover " expression. I understand you and understand your frustation but as I posted is almost imposible to really help you.

I think that the culprit of your " problem " with is the distributor where you bought the Kleos and IMHO he is responsable of the whole scenario you are living with.

Apologies if some of our posts disturb you, I'm sure that no single of them was posted with that intention/attitude.

Thank's for your understanding.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear frankmarsi:  For your posts I know that you first than all are a music lover and from your posts I know that you are not a true audiophile but a real/unique music lover.


I don't know if this time is your time to convert too in an audiophile because for you will be very expensive to make audiophile changes in your whole loved audio system.
I know that for every one of us our audio system is like our " child " and we love it.

Now, problem is that top cartridges like the Kleos needs to be matched with true audiophile analog rig that you have not. So you can't ask for bananas to your tomatoes tree, imposible.

If you are not willing to make serious changes in almost all the links in your today audio system just forget about not only the Kleos but other top cartridges because your system can't really honor the great quality performance level of those today cartridges of those today true audiophile items,.

It's not only a tonearm or phono stage but your whole system.

If I was you and with no enough money to make changes then the best advise is that you follow enjoying the music as a music lover and for get about any other approach.

What I can't understand is how a Lyra/JC oficial distributor can sold the Kleos to you with no advise on your system other that only make money, pity.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

I guess what responders may be getting at is a mismatch between your arm in particular and the Kleos. Using available resonance calculators the resonance range for the Delos is 7.3-8.4 Hz (the range is a function of the need to make an adjustment for the Lyra compliance specs being at 100 Hz). The Kleos is slightly higher mass and so pushes the resonance down to 7.0-8.1Hz, the bottom end of which is edging into the problem range. Add to which the fact that newer MCs tend to throw out a heck of a lot of energy that your older arm may nor be comfortable with and which will manifest as an edgy sound.

So if you are happy with the Delos move on and return the Kleos, or else stick with the Kleos and trade up to a better arm, I certainly found that upgrading my arm ( from a Triplanar VII to a Durand Kairos) really let my cartridge (an Air Tight PC1) sing

Dear members, I’m not coming back to be with members that can be this disruptive especially in the face of this great site and the world/internet.
Thanks to all who have been helpful.
fm

@frankmarsi:

Sorry to be critical, it was not personal, but this is the internet, and you must have a thick skin or be gone.

My quote was in regard to the latest and greatest vs older equipment, not ancient audio equipment that was obsolete 40 years ago that almost nobody remembers.

Suck it up!

Donny C. 55 , Here you are folks across the world, do we need this kind of infantile stuff on this site?

profile post quote:
3.) “”Maybe those that kept their older systems, and got off the "marry-go-round", of latest and most expensive is best, are the most intelligent!””

These are some of your own words buster, all I had to do was check your profile. I have much more to say but, why enter a pissing contest with the likes of you? I'm just waiting to hear what others have to say before I engage  with any further contact. You seem personally very unhappy!
I rest my case.
fm
P.S. Meet at the flag pole after class! The only thing that is 'hopeless is you!

Phase Linear, Carver, AR from the 70's was not even the best, 40 years ago!   LOL!

The Lyra is current and "beyond" anything from the 70's!

I do not think you even know even know what the Lyra sounds like, using your hopelessly out of date equipment.

Do not take it personal.  Just telling it as is.

If you hear what I would hear I would very much prefer the Delos too. The most important thing to be conveyed are emotions, and it appears that Delos, at least in your system, does it much better. I heard praises for Delos outside Audiogon from people with totally different tables/arms. In fact, that's what I will one day upgrade to to use with my Nottingham Spacedeck/Spacearm. 
But yes, your phono stage may not be quite a good match for Kleos.

Frank: I too am a huge fan of the Delos, I have two, one for back up.

Just one simple question that I wasn't quite sure you answered previously: Did you try both cartridges on both tables/arms in the unlikely but possible chance that one table/arm combination favors either cartridge over the other?

Also, your phono stage may work optimally with the Delos over the Kleos.

Steve

4-6-16

Wow! Just the replies I was hoping for from Jonathan and others who have many posts under their belts! Although, I will address Jonathan first as he is the actual designer of the unit.
Jonathan that is very kind of you to offer a return situation as you have, I may or may not take you up on that and I’ll explain in a moment.

Just finished a 6 hour marathon of classical music and lastly played an excellent late1970’s pressing of “The Firebird”, conducted by Meiji Ozawa on the Angel label all on the Kleos. It did a great job.
I forgot to mention, although not used in direct comparison with either the Delos or Kleos, I have for this past year also used a Ortofon Cadenza Blue. So, when I mention valued and personal opinion comparisons either by memory or by actual at the moment use, I have a pretty fair amount of recall. I have a certain amount of personal credence in my recall as I’ve been an avid Hi-Fi user since I was 18, I’m now 66 years young.

To your point Jonathan, I set this system up only three years ago after relocating from another residence. When I set it all back up again, I applied a coat of deoxit Dicol to every contact through-out the entire system with the supplied tiny brush. I never apply this liquid to the leads that come in contact with the cartridge for fear of the liquid wicking into the cartridge body. I also do so whenever I change from one head-shell to another into the arm’s contact points, but only a minor amount for fear of it becoming gunk.
I must also mention that with a vintage system such as mine, it is not wise to shut down these amps and restart them without at least two hours passing because there is no protection circuitry and the large ‘caps’ will send through a large surge, henceforth blowing anything in its path.

To “yogiboy’s” post, I’m in accordance about what you say, as I believe you are correct. Although I don’t believe the vendor would take it back in trade with over 55 hours on it and after one month. Also, I agree with your assessment regarding the ‘liking’ of one component over another regardless of cost.


To “stringreen’s” post, Jonathan has offered me a return for a check-out. I don’t think the situation is extreme as you mentioned about your Ortofon though.
However, the relaxing drink part sounds good, although one drink could lead to another thus, lessoning my objective hearing abilities. I’m a child of the late 1960’s, played in a few bands in that era and it’s easy to get right up there and enjoy myself, too much.

Now back to Jonathan.
I’m beginning to feel and think that perhaps it’s just me., I’ll explain.
The Delos happens to be the best cartridge I’ve ever owned at my age and I have been extremely impressed by it, while fearing nothing else will come close. Perhaps it’s the fear of change, I don’t know however, so I’ll back my statement with the fact that I’m totally happy with the Delos. Perhaps I simply spent my money needlessly?
Case in point: On the 180gm. re-issue of ‘“Depeche Mode’s” ‘Playing the Angels’, on the first cut on side one the intro opens with a loud and furious undefined almost horn like sound.
The Kleos reproduces it well with out distortion, but lacking the full ‘impact’ of the sound, whereas the Delos not only reproduces it well and equally without any distortion but, the Delos' portrayal almost scares the listener with it’s ‘huge-ness’ and overwhelming impact of sound.
 In my 4 or 5 different pressings of the ‘1812’ Overture, the Delos’ cannons come across with more realistic sound than the seemingly almost muted rendition done by the Kleos. Oh it's close but, no cigar.
In “Sade’s” ‘Promise’ album, both the original 1986 pressing and the current 180gm. re-issue, the Delos for me reigns supreme, the Kleos only approaches the music’s clarity, vibrancy, echo and heft effortlessly rendered by the Delos.

I’m reminded of my other cartridge travels in the last 12 years.
When I went from the AT-440MLa to the AT-150MLx, it seemed to be a lateral move. I say this because although the AT150 had many attributes similar to the AT440 , the overall presentation of the AT150 was seemingly more refined and perhaps a bit better controlled (maybe to much so), whereas the AT 440 was so much more exciting and thrilling. I was similarly for me by going from a DL-301II to a DL-304, the ladder being so refined it became boring and unexciting for me.
The 304 seemed so refined and in control, whereas the 301 was balls-to-the-wall exciting and to use Jonathan’s appropriate term, exhibited much more ‘exhuberance’. Perhaps this situation’s perception is at work here?

So, have I talked myself into a corner?

First off, I purchased the Kleos and Delos from a reputable British vendor.
Will they take it back or not is up for question.
Or, as you indicated Jonathan, will it come back with a clean bill of health and the fault lying in my inability to have better personal qualifications of judgement?
In the mean time I’’ll be without and if nothing is wrong, it’ll a waste of emotion and time. On the other hand if I don’t send it back to the vendor and manufacturer, and there might be something wrong, I won’t ever know and have to swallow regret.

I’ll guess I must simply spend more time with the Kleos and or relegate it to a particular type of music, and or quality of recording?

Jonathan, once again, thank you for your response. It’s been a privilege talking with you. My thanks to everyone who responded.

P.S. To “Al”’ and “jund”, thanks for your replies: I thought seriously of the point you both similarly make but, I’m not just yet ready for such a large expense of an upgrade as implied. I’m actually quite content with the flexibility and diversity that the C-4000 offers me as I still use the tape inputs for my A77 Revox and multiple phono inputs as I also run a TD-125 turntable. This high degree of flexibility is generally not offered in the present or even last 20 year’s offerings of newer pre-amps.
In terms of the sound quality afforded by more costly components, well that’s another story I can’t speak of just yet.
In essence I operate in the ‘vintage’ realm and I’m happy to do so. I understand that many newer speakers systems work well in the ‘near-field’ whereas my AR-LST speakers were designed for use in the ‘far-field’, as much vintage stuff is. My room is 12X26 and I sit 10+ feet away from the front wall were the speakers are.

In closing all opinions that I had received here today are qualified and correct and I appreciate everyone’s guidance and input.

I will be in contact when I’ve determined my next move. I will leave the door open to anyone else who has something to say about my situation.

I still feel the Delos is one heck of a performer nonetheless!!!
The Kleos is obviously a horse of a different color. For me very close but, the Delos is my current favorite.
I have considered the Clearaudio Stradivari and Concerto for future purchase but, I don’t know if they would out do the Delos? Does anyone have an opinion?
In closing, yes I agree, perhaps a better and more costly front-end would be my answer, but I'm planning to stay put until I'm motivated to move on.
If the ship goes down, I’m grabbing the Delos.
Sincerely, Frank Marsi

Al that's amazing I was just about to post that the equipment,  which is solid but perhaps a bit long in the tooth  may not have the resolution to really appreciate the Kleos or may just be more synergistic with the lower resolution more colorful Delos. I would say great minds but next to your engineering prowess mine is downright feeble ;). And frank welcome great first post and it was great of Jonathan Carr to helpfully chime in great to see such a responsive importer. Good luck and happy listening!

Frank, I see that you are new here, so welcome!  And thanks for providing such a thorough and witty post.

I owned a Carver C-4000 for a few years, beginning ca. 1980.  Initially I was quite pleased with it, but as the rest of my system evolved and improved its lack of transparency and other sonic shortcomings became increasingly apparent.  Particularly when the sonic hologram function was in use, but also to a significant degree when it was deselected.  Eventually, around 1985, I inserted a friend's Mark Levinson ML-1 into my system (that being the philosophical antithesis of the C-4000, with its design providing very little in the way of features but implementation that was very uncompromising), and it immediately became apparent that the Carver had to go.  I purchased the ML-1 from the friend and used it for the majority of the next 25 years.

While the possibility that the Kleos may be under-performing for some reason can't be ruled out at this point, of course, my guess is simply that the sonics of the Delos happen to be more complementary than those of the Kleos to the colorations and relative lack of transparency of the Carver and/or the other components in the system.  With an additional contributing factor perhaps being that the components may no longer be performing as well as they once did. 

I hope you will receive these comments as being well-intended and hopefully constructive, which is how they are being offered.

Good luck.  Regards,
-- Al
 

It sounds to me like you prefer the Delos over the Kleos. Price does not always assure your enjoyment with audio gear. Many times I have liked something that is less expensive. If you can return it then you should ! Seems like a no brainer in my neck of the woods!

Hi Frank: While you are very much in the minority, you are not the only person to say that they prefer the Delos over the Kleos.

The Delos is more about fun and exuberance, while the Kleos is more about gravity and refinement. It could be that in your system, the Delos (and its somewhat higher output) is a better match.

On the other hand, certain other dealers have told us that they prefer the sound of the Kleos over all of our other cartridges, so the subjective preference really seems to depend on the system and listener.

Nonetheless, if you suspect that your Kleos is underperforming, you are welcome to send it back to us (via the dealer that you purchased it from) so that we can check it over. This does not mean that you will like the sound of the "after" Kleos any better than the "before", but at least we can make sure that there is nothing amiss that is holding back performance.

When it comes to a trade-in of the type that you mentioned, regretfully I don"t have the authority to decide, as that is the domain of the dealer that you bought the cartridge from, and the distributor in your country. The best that we can do is to support your dealer and distributor in whatever they decide is the proper course of action.

kind regards, jonathan

PS. Could you try shutting down your system, unplugging every electrical connection (power as well as signal), and remaking all of the electrical connections? Oxides build up on the electrical connectors over time, and systems usually sound better if the electrical connections are remade once a month (cleaning then remaking would be better yet).

...for starters, sit down with a drink and relax.  Something is wrong here.  I would send the cartridge to Lyra for a quick evaluation.  If you have great confidence in your dealer...he could look at it, but I personally would have Lyra take a look.  It sounds like you know what you're doing regarding setup.  I had an Ortofon Windfield which didn't sound right to me....I sent it back to Ortofon who said it was internally wired wrong...they sent me a new cartridge that sounds fab.  ....anyway, you would start knowing that the cartridge is good.