Cartridge suggestions for SME Turntable

I just appreciate reading about your experiences with the Hana Umami Red as I will soon be auditioning it on my Basis 2800/Vector 4 combination.  Just makes me more confident in my selection although a Soundsmith Paua Mk2 might be under consideration also!

@lalitk Glad to hear it. When I look at the design characteristics of the Hana and the Charisma I see some similarities so curious if that translates into their sonic qualities. "Balanced" is perhaps the word that most jumps to mind when I think of the Signature One so interesting you used it for the Hana. That was something I loved about my ART9 as well--very even handed across all parameters. The Signature One has this in spades and then adds a host of other superlatives that bring it to the next level. There are now two professional reviews on the Charisma that may be of interest to those who are curious. One in Mono and Stereo: https//www.monoandstereo.com/2020/09/charisma-audio-signature-one-cartridge.html

And another recently appeared in Part Time Audiophile:
https//parttimeaudiophile.com/2020/12/26/charisma-audio-signature-one-moving-coil-phono-cartridge-review/

Enjoy!

@dodgealum 

Glad to hear you’re enjoying Charisma in your amazing system. No immediate plans to try another cart, I’m thoroughly enjoying Umami’s gorgeous well balanced sound :-) 

I’d be interested to hear how the charisma sig one compares with your Hana. I’m in love with mine for sure!

@audioquest4life

Thanks for providing insight on Hyperion MKII and Benz LP-S carts. While Hyperion isn’t inexpensive, one can call it a bargain :-) I am going to add Hyperion to my audition list.

I have just upgraded my tonearm from 309 to V and the uptick in performance from Umami was quite shocking. The V allowed Umami to dig deeper and pull out every little detail. The combination of V and Umami is throwing an exceptionally wide and deeper soundstage, the midrange is so palpable along with well balanced bass. I’m having fun, let the journey continue....

@mijostyn,

My favorite right now is the Soundsmith Hyperion. It is not like any other Soundsmith cartridge I have heard or owned. It plays well and competes with cartridges costing thousands more from other manufacturers. The Hyperion does not have the Soundsmith house sound, but the organic sound of something like a Benz LPs and the details of a Koetsu Onyx. In order of ranking for my current collection. 
1. Soundsmith Hyperion MKII
2. Benz LPS
3. Soundsmith Sussaro MKII / Benz Ruby Z (tied)
4. Goldring Merlot Elite (Transrotor)

Will be interesting to see how the Opus 1 and Either Jade or Coralstone stack up in the future.
All are being used between two SME V arms. Third 12inch arm pending.


@lalitk,

I love the Benz LPS. It was my reference cartridge for years. I had compared it to the Onyx, not platinum version, and thought it was not too far off the characteristics from the Onyx. The Benz LPS has great voicing and stereo spaciousness that will make you happy. Until you hear a better cartridge it is great for what it does and can serve as a daily play cartridge for lots of music. 
Compared to the Onyx, I felt it lacked the detail and robustness in voices that the Koetsus are known for. But, the Benz LPS is in a category that exceeds the performance of many other cartridges and if that is all that you have, enjoy it. 

On my system, I played around with wide open (47) loading and below...it seemed to like a higher loading figure on my system. 
Right now, I am using the Ruby Z as back up to give the LPS a rest. The Ruby Z is also great, but lacks that last bit of detail the LPS can provide. 
This is a crazy fun hobby for sure. I guess I am going to have to add the Unami Red to my collection because it sounds like a cartridge hitting way above its league too, just like the LPS does.

@audioquest4life 

I have been enjoying Hana Umami since October 2020. Frankly, this cart is so well balanced that I haven’t felt the urge to try anything else. I have just purchased SME V arm, once installed I would get back on track to try other carts. How do you like Benz LP-S? 

@audioquest4life , which of the cartridges you have to you like the most?

@lalitk 

Any updates regarding your comparisons of the Umami Red against the Urushi Gold or others? I have the Benz LPS and Benz Ruby Z, and Soundsmith Sussaro MKII, Hyperion and pending Opus 1 and Koetsu Jade platinum inbound. 

Update.....after listening to Hana - ML MC for 3 weeks, I have decided to bring in recently announced Hana - Umami Red (Low Output) MC. The Umami Red shares some of the critical design elements of Etsuro Urushi Gold ($21K). I hope to use Umami as my reference to compare with following carts lined up for audition over the course of next couple of months,

van den Hul Crimson Stradivarius
Charisma Signature One
Miyajima Destiny
EAT Jo No. 8
Benz LP-S

mijostyn

My assessment of the SAT arm is based on the observation of it’s design. If you look at a picture you will notice ...

It’s very difficult to assess the performance of an an audio component from a picture or spec sheet alone, @mijostyn. That’s especially true with pickup arms, imo, because the precision of its execution is so important.

... the vertical bearing is high above the record surface and that you can not draw a line from the center of the balance weight through the bearing through the center of mass of the cartridge. The cartridge extends significantly below this line.

I agree that is not ideal geometry.

This is a static balance arm. Because of these 2 traits the SAT arm can not track a warped record as well as the CB.

That’s really speculation. You may be correct, but it’s speculation just the same. The geometry of a pickup arm is very important, but there is so-oooo much more to it than that. For example, consider an underhung arm such as a Viv Lab RigidFloat, which achieves tangency at only one null point. On paper, it looks like a prescription for high tracking error and distortion. But in practice, users say it sounds great.

Thank you cleeds for the interpretation. I mean that sincerely as Raul had me a bit lost. 
I have used a Schroder CB and have the chance to play with it a little.
Fabulous arm. My assessment of the SAT arm is based on the observation of it's design. If you look at a picture you will notice that the vertical bearing is high above the record surface and that you can not draw a line from the center of the balance weight through the bearing through the center of mass of the cartridge. The cartridge extends significantly below this line. This is a static balance arm. Because of these 2 traits the SAT arm can not track a warped record as well as the CB. If your records are not warped it does not matter. As far as the sonic performance of these arms? Do you really think that the SAT arm sounds $25,000 better? A tonearm should have no sound of it's own. Certainly the Schroder is going to sound better on a warped record. Less warp wow and cantilever deflection. On a flat record I would bet no one could tell the difference. 

Thank you everyone for their suggestions. This is all been very helpful and I am learning a lot. Still a long way to go but I feel good about the process.

I also wanted to extend my gratitude to Mr. Colin King @gestalt. He has gone above and beyond in supporting me through the process.

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To be more clear, the spring mechanism is usually used to apply VTF after the counterweight is used to balance the arm. Some users employ a combination of the spring and the counterweight to achieve the desired VTF.

audio2design

...  Not sure what this sort of spring rauliruegas mentions ...

He's referring to arms that allow dynamic balancing with a spring (such as SME V) rather than static balancing using a counterweight.

Don’t forget its all about matching and personal taste..regardless of the price...

By the way I heard the Lyra on my friend system , he uses 309 tonearm, all tube gear , this is the system that made me realize how good vynil is, And I end up buying the SME 10 and the ICON ps3 mark2....

Mijostyn's description to me is accurate wrt mass alignment which ensures no matter the angle the down force is the same on both ends hence it stays.  Not sure what this sort of spring rauliruegas mentions?

I do question whether it matters once you apply tracking force as that now dominates with compliance of the cantilever, tracking force and tonearm mass dominating mechanical movement. Perhaps it will if your records are really warped but I don't tend to keep those.

mijostyn

The Schroder CB will outperform the SAT arm all day long. So why does Michael Fremer like it so much? If I had to guess it is expensive and it looks cool. An expensive, very well made poor design. Go figure

That's an interesting claim. Have you actually ever heard a Schroder arm and compared it to the SAT? Or are you just speculating based on what you read about them?

latitk,

You have a nice table and arm combination.  A friend has that arm (with upgraded bearings) and it is very good at bringing out the best tracking performance of a the Lyra Titan and Transfiguration Orpheus cartridges we tried in that arm.  I think you have wide-open options on cartridges with which it will work well.  A cartridge that I heard recently that should be added to the long list here is the Audio Technica ART 1000.  It is a very dynamic and lively sounding cartridge that is also sweet and musical.

Dear @mijostyn :  Yes, that was a kind of explanation with different end subjects.

The other way and the one I'm refering to is the way we set up the VTF where static balance designs makes the job using natural force of gravity and between other advantages this way the tonearm counterweigth will be nearer to the tonearm pivot/bearing/fulcrum.

With that concept the balance way is where the VTF is applied by a kind of spring mechanism that always tend to resonates by it self and where the counterweigth normally is not so nearer to the pivot as the static balance designs. In the balanced design that spring mechanism force/obligates the tonearm to always stays under the determined VTF and this causes severalproblems to mantain VTA/SRA and the cantilever suspension natural movements.

The only balanced tonearm designs with a non-resonant mechanism were the MAX-282 and the Lustre GST-801 both great quality performer designs.

I owned both and even with the non-resonant VTF set up mechanism I always prefered to run it in static way, the same with my SME V, FR and Ikeda samples.

For me make no sense anymore to design today a tonearm with VTF balanced set up way.

R.

Raul, I am not sure people understand the different types of balance tonearms can have and how they affect performance. 
Tonearms either have Neutral or Static balance. Static balance is what you usually have. Balance the arm so that it floats perfectly horizontally. Lift the headshell 1/2 inch and gently let go. The arm will start oscillating up and down looking for the balance point which it will eventually find. 
Neutral balance is more difficult to achieve. The center of mass at both ends of the arm have to be in line with the pivot. Carry out the same procedure as you did with the static balance arm and when you lift the headshel 1/2 inch and gently let go it will just stay there motionless. Anywhere you put the headshell it will stay. This is what you want in a tonearm, much superior warp tracking. Static balance arm bounce on their cantilever and if the warp is bad enough will leave the record. A neutral balance arm will not do this. To be neutral balance with all cartridges you have to have an adjustable counterweight like the Schroder CB or the Reed 2G. I think the Tri Planar is also a neutral balance arm. The SAT arm interestingly is not. It is Static Balance all the way and it's vertical bearing is high above the record another no no. The Schroder CB will outperform the SAT arm all day long. So why does Michael Fremer like it so much? If I had to guess it is expensive and it looks cool. An expensive, very well made poor design. Go figure

Lalitk Iam using ICON ps3 mark 2 phonostage.

Dear @jperry  : "   It is. Matter of personal taste. I have heard Lyra cartridges and not my cup of tea.

I have heard a Benz LPS on a SME tonearm...""

yes but i think you not owned the 309. In the otherside I don't posted the LP-S is not a good cartridge as a fact I was a " fanatic " of Benz-Micro and I owned: the Ruby, Ruby 2, Ruby 3, LP and LP-S so I like it the Benz-Micro designs even I still own the Carnegie 2 marketed by Madrigal that was designed in a collaboration between Benz-Micro and vdH: very good performer.

But I like Lyra too, I owned the : Evolve, Helikon, Clavis, Clavis D'Capo, Skala, Titan, Kleos and listened in my system the Etna and Atlas and listened too in an Agoner system the Olympos.

Lyra puts me nearer to the recording against Benz-Micro.

Btw, I think that you need to test your balanced design tonearm in static way that's something that @lalitk  must try too.

Pro-Ac speakers is something that any audiophile needs to listen some time really first rate speakers as the Tannoy.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@jperry,

Thanks for the invite. I loved your system, very exquisite from the choice of gear to the room decor. Well done! 

The Benz LPS worked fine on my SME 10 turntable. The counterweight was very close to the limit, and worked. I ordered the heavier counterweight. I can’t say it made a difference in the sound. Since then I have moved on and sold the SME 10.

I have my system posted here if you are interested

^^^Noted. 

It can handle light or heavy carts, but you need to know tonearm effective mass to match your cartridge according to its compliance at 10Hz (not just weight of the cartridge).

@jactoy,

Thank you for your post. I have used Hana ML with my Thorens TD1601. It is indeed a very sweet sounding cart. In upcoming weeks, I will be listening to few carts ranging between $4K to $8K, it’s going to be interesting comparison. 

I am also in a process of finalizing the phonostage. What phono you’re listening to with SME10? 

@jperry, 

Thank you for your feedback. I am trying to see if I can get the Benz LP S cart in for audition. The SME 309 certainly can handle carts between 6-17 grans of weight :-)

I do have SME 10 ,for now  I am using the ML Hana it sounds great , I like the combo.In the future maybe I will upgrade.Nate from Acoustic sound is very familiar with SMEs.

Raul,

It is. Matter of personal taste. I have heard Lyra cartridges and not my cup of tea.

I have heard a Benz LPS on a SME tonearm. Great sounding match.

Maybe add comments about what you wish to improve on vs. the sound you get from the Hana. 

Some of the carts recommended here are over $5k
Would have thought the gain structure of the phono amp chain is an important factor in choosing a cart. Cant figure what SUT/head amp you have, I believe your preamp has MM input? DAGOGO had a good review on a Benz Ebony TRS matched with a Shindo preamp.

Dear @vinylshadow : I owned the LP-S and is very good performer, so this characteristic is not under questioning in any way but I want to tell you that the Anna, Etna or My Sonic Lab Platinum are way superior to any of all the other advises here. 

The Etna and Anna are a no-regret and no-come back cartridges. You will never turn around your face with any other cartridges.

But cartridges is up to any one of us and very personal choice.

R.

Effective mass of your SME tonearm maybe ? 

I mirror jperry's words...I just bought a Benz Micro LP-S due to advice I got from a few audiophiles.

Here's a review:https://www.avsa.co.za/benz-micro-lp-s-mr-heart-and-soul/
It weighs 16.4 grams.
Good luck!

Dynavector Karat 17DX

Ok Lalitk, The Koetsu I would recommend strongly against. It really works best in the heaviest of arms and even so it is not a great tracker. You could add weight to your arm but....
The Etsuro is not the greatest tracker at 70um. The Windfeld Ti is rated for 90um. 80 um is IMHO acceptable. 
Both the Charisma and Miyajima Labs are stiffer cartridge's meant for the larger arms the Japanese like. Again you can add weight but...
Your arm is best suited for cartridges in the 13 - 20 um/mN range. Such as The Ortofon Windfeld Ti, any Lyra cartidge, any Clearaudio cartridge, any Van den Hul Cartridge, any Grado cartridge. I generally stay away from cottage companies and stick to the well established generally more technically sophisticated, larger companies. IMHO the Windfeld Ti is the perfect cartridge for you given what you want to spend. The Lyra Kleos would be my second pick followed by the Clearaudio Stradivari V2 and the Van den Hul Frog. 

Zyx Cartridges 

+1 on Ortofon. We're using the Cadenza Black on an SME 20/3.

Thank you all for your suggestions, keep them coming. I have received few suggestions from resellers as below,

Koetsu Rosewood Signature MC,
Etsuro Cobalt Blue,
Chrisma Audio Signature One MC,
Miyajima Labs Saboten L

I would appreciate any input on these carts as well, thank you. 

Dear @lalitk : Not only your SME combo is really good but your room/system too. I love those Tannoy's, congratulations.

Obviously that you deserve the best to match the SME and here some really good alternatives. You can't go wrong with any of them ( the Air Tight is designed and manufactured by My Sonic Labs. ):



https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9ahd5-air-tight-pc-1-supreme-cartridges

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa35fi-lyra-etna-like-new-cartridges

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa5i97-my-sonic-lab-ultra-eminent-ex-cartridges

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa5g08-my-sonic-lab-signature-platinum-new-cartridges

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis99edf-ortofon-anna-mc-as-new-cartridges


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

I suggest running the resonant frequency calculations on a Soundsmith Sussurro Mark 2 with that arm. I’m using one on an SME 312s. It’s definitely the best cartridge I’ve heard, besting the Benz Ruby 3 and a Kiseki Purpleheart.

I absolutely second the Windfeld Ti. In that price range there is no better cartridge and it is hard to justify spending more money than this. The Windfeld Ti is one of the best tracking cartridges made and it is superbly neutral not emphasizing and part of the audio spectrum. It is also a perfect match for the 309. What a great setup! I think the 15 is handily the best value in the line. Enjoy!! 

Sumiko Palo Santos

Benz Micro LPS (you may need the heavier counterweight for this)

The Ortofon Windfeld Ti was used at the Tampa Audio Expo last year paired with this TT setup and worked extremely well.  

Dynavector XV-1s