@grannyring
Weren't you saying you prefer the Al to the Cu versions?
How do they compare size wise?
Best,
E
Weren't you saying you prefer the Al to the Cu versions?
How do they compare size wise?
Best,
E
Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil
I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.
I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.
There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)
In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)
So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.
1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.
Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.
So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.
different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.
All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!
Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.
For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?
When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)
The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.
The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.
I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.
There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)
In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)
So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.
1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.
Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.
So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.
different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.
All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!
Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.
For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?
When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)
The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.
The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.
3,012 responses Add your response
Little theory. A capacitor is 2 conductive plates with an insulator. You can make one out of aluminum foil and wax paper, but it will be very very low Farads. I’ve done it. Tiny capacitance. Like, nano-Farads. Commercial caps use insulators with a thickness measured in micrometers. To increase the voltage rating of a cap you must make the insulator thicker, which then makes the need for more conductive material to compensate for the increased distance. This need for a thicker insulator is the driving factor on the rest of the design. This is true for ALL capacitors. Look at a 10uF electrolytic at different voltages. The 5V is tiny compared to the 60V variety. Some uber-expensive caps like Mundorf Supreme’s are made as 2 caps in series in a single package. This cuts the effective uF by four, while doubling the voltage rating. You could do this yourself. With a pair of 20uF/100V caps: ---| |----| |--- You would have the equivalent of a 10uF/200V cap, even though you used 40uF worth of capacitors. This is why these boutique caps are so much larger physically and in some ways justifies the price. The material cost just went up by 4! Best, E |
volleyguy,I have a power amp that uses 4- 6550 power tubes I bought used . They were running the new rusky Tung-Sol which are well reviewed .They are fair at best . Cost me 800 $ to find a new set of Sylvania’s from the 50’s . I was VERY lucky to find them and 800 bucks is cheap . I used to haunt garage sales looking for Fishers with Telefunken . |
The difference is the higher rated voltage cap has more material inside and they will be bigger for sure, More material is needed for handling the increased voltage. Speaker uf values are larger and meaning 600uf versions of 12uf caps would result in caps that are giant sized. They still can be at 100v 😊 They can and and often do sound different. A 300v and 600v version of the same cap can indeed sound slightly different. They use the same materials inside, but more material can have a slight impact on the sound. Over on the Humble Capacitor review site they often pick up slight sonic differences in caps that have both lower and higher voltage ratings. It depends on the cap. Higher uf values are usually not even offered in the higher 600v option however. |
Just curious Schubert have you listen to the new Gold Lions? 12ax7's? I have RCA Mullard's Fisher branded Telefunken's and sound tested them against new Gold Lion's and found the Gold Lion's excellent. Now that was new Gold Lions and I am not saying new tubes last as long as vintage tubes they might not? Part of the reason to try a new tube was to not wear out those priceless old tubes. I still have lots of them and they might go back in for a retest! |
Thanks Grannyring on 1) Duelund wire is getting better. 2) I can imagine this wire being fantastic or over the top. I easily hear you on on the wire going from pull it out, to magnificent. A interesting product for sure! I must say it does not even sound like other Duelund family wire. Of course this was a copy of WE16ga not solid copper or flat solid silver. Duelund tweeter caps go in on Monday. |
Completely system dependent. I heard the very same thing you did with the Duelund wire. I then had two things happen. 1) more burn in 2) I upgraded my USB cable and now the Duelund is just perfect! It was too alive before and now it is spot on! So interesting. I used it for speaker wire to the amp. Changing my USB cable did change the sound of my system for the better and set the stage for the Duelund wire to sound magnificent. I was not going to use before this slight system chance. Wire is soooo system dependent. |
In a blind test I ask my daughter who plays guitar which speaker sounded better? In her opinion the non Duelund 16ga speaker. She could hear the difference. Yet there is much to like about the Duelund 16ga. Very dynamic super real mid-range yet almost too much... Will the RS caps send things back and make for improvement in all ways? |
For anyone who stumbles on this. Changing caps in an amp is low stress as it affects the whole signal compared to changing speaker caps, inductors or wires. The crossover works in unison and any change throws things off. Maybe in a good way, maybe not? In my case crappy internal wire paired with noisy vintage paper in oil tweeter caps was working good. Maybe neither part was good but each defect was ok together. Now hopefully really open to maybe midrangy sounding Duelund 16ga wire paired with much quieter Duelund RS tweeter caps puts things back in balance and in a better way. |
Removed 5' of internal cheap lamp cord internal wire and replaced with Duelund 16ga with better connectors. (including one terrible connector feeds signal through aluminum screw. Speaker cable still WE 16ga. I did not replace tweeter caps yet with Duelund as that would be a huge change. I just wanted to eval the wire. Early impression with only doing one speaker so far is almost not stereo. Speakers sound very different from each other. |
I have all the parts for a complete internal speaker rewire with Duelund. After reading Jeff Day's site I am going to have to get some Duelund IC's which will be virtually my last plastic! My second system was bought for back up parts really in case anything went in main system and in the beginning I did not listen to it much. That has changed A LOT! In original part of thread I had one vintage amp redone. (Duleund where room Jupiter in tight fit) In second amp I threw the hodgepodge of caps in Duelund, Jupiter and VCap Cuft and Jensen and it sounds AWESOME even though my tech guy does not like it. He would like to see all the same caps in a circuit. Of course he would never redo an amp and put in a hodgepodge of caps, what would the customer think? Almost nervous to put in the Duelund last two caps in amp and tweeter caps (sitting here) plus Duelund internal wiring as it will send the speakers off or better the main system! Not sure which I am more nervous of setting things backward or having the second system best the first? Then trying to figure out why?! |
I have spent quite a bit of time on our tube loving guitar amp brothers pages and magazines. Here is an amp builder talking about different transformers. http://carlscustomamps.com/whats-the-deal-with-brands-of-transformers/ |
Eric I started with natural tone and then by changing caps increased the dynamics by a HUGE amount. Like going from antique to modern. They do NOT sound old. Sometimes the new caps are 30x as big in volume. MUCH more dynamic. I do not think many will spend close to $1k in caps in an old amp but it is the best $1k I have spent! |
Only the Jupiter Copper Foil. In my pic it has around 30 caps replaced. I did not put in the pic power supply and electrolytic caps. I know it would seem with old Fisher I am going for vintage sound but I was not. I just used old Fishers as they were pretty cheap then... Was not going to cut up old McIntosh's or Marantz amps. That being said Steve Hoffman has mentioned how good these old Fishers sound stock. With all new Duelund caps they are not even in the same league. MILES better! Steve Hoffman has McIntosh and Marantz as well and worth $16k. http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_jupiter_copper600.html |
This thread started with me just baffled how a vintage amp got tone so right! Now coming up to 9 years. Been a a lot of fun and some frustration with wasted money and unreliable vintage gear. it is I suspect a series of sometimes just standard production of the day. Plastic was just not used so much years ago. |
I can not comment on Duelund resistors my crossover has no resistors. i would love this conversation to branch out into paper bobbin paper insulated output trannies vs. Plastic bobbins. i am sure the plastic/nylon is a MUCH better product from a reliability point of view. The discussion would be on sound. I know paper in oil caps sound better tone wise I suspect paper wound transformers do. |
Duelund resistors are "weird." They claim to have a high thermal coefficient (resistor value change rapidly with heat) that somehow magically makes them change value correctly to compensate for drivers warming up. Problem is there are lots of places to use resistors in a circuit, and the importance of any given resistor to the overal filter impedance varies tremendously, so who knows which way this will affect the speaker sound as it warms up. Having resistors change value with heat is the LAST thing on earth I want, unless I have exactly matched the crossover behavior to the drivers themselves. Unlike Duelund, Mills 5 and 12W wire wound resistors have EXCELLENT thermal stability. Warm them up within their heat / power tolerances and they maintain their values precisely. I think Jensen is making a line of affordable (relatively) foil in wax / paper coils. E |
Grannyring I think you will be correct. :) I must admit though after getting back the 3rd Fisher from repair shop (today) I hooked it up and it took out an output transformer. It gets tiring. It is now back in shop, might be coincidence. These old amps are from 51-60 years old. (I did stock extra output transformers) For me these vintage amps are a love/hate relationship. Years ago one caught fire! (Melted an output transformer) (amp I am still listening too) Plus I was/am not a vintage guy look wise. These things were bought solely on sound as I was stunned when I first heard them. (Weaknesses but tone I had never heard in my life) Keeping up 3 antiques amps to have 2 systems going. Then on Saturday I went with my daughter and to a high end stereo store in Toronto. I try and get out and hear as many systems as I can. Her first comment (was a puzzled look) these sound like toys?... Things quickly come back to why I put up with antiques. Just waiting on some vintage connectors and the Duelund tinned copper wire goes in second system and new tweeter RS caps. I just can can not get over the tone Jack White gets out of his guitar... I would know what I want in speakers. Duelund internal wiring. Duelund RS (or CAST) AlNiCo drivers. Duelund or wax paper inductors. NO Electrolytics. Amp either a mix of VCap cuft, Jupiter Copper and Duelund RS and CAST or all Duelund. Output transformers paper bobbin. I have one of my burned out output transformers. All paper. It is hard for me to imagine this is not a big deal better than plastic. My vintage wax paper inductor in the speaker was quieter than the Duelund VSF inductor! How can a paper output tranny not be quieter? Anyone know where to buy this kind of stuff new save Audio Note? |
Great parts Volleyguy1. You should be thrilled with the results. I am confident of that. @salectric I ended up using a mix of Duelund and Mills resistors. I finished the highs/mids board in my Crescendo speakers and have about 150 hours on them. The improvement is just wonderful. It was very, very hard fitting all the parts on a board that would fit in the speaker. The 12uf Jupiter cap is 6 inches long with a circumference of 8 inches! It replaced a 1.5 inch metalized film cap as just one example. My wife did not want any other electronics boxes in the room so outboard crossovers were not an option😢 The improvement is dramatic. Here are pics of the board. The bass board is my next project. http://s1097.photobucket.com/user/grannyring1/slideshow/ |
Grannyring, I did a lot of resistor comparisons including the Duelunds when I was trying to get the very best sound out of the crossover for my high-efficiency speakers, and I am pretty sure I reported my conclusions somewhere in this long thread. Good luck on finding them though! The bottom line was that the standard Duelund and the CAST resistor sound very different. The standard has a tonal balance skewed to the warm and dark side of things, and the CAST is pretty much the opposite since it is very lean in the bass with fairly bright treble. The CAST also sounds "wispy" in the highs; HF sounds sort of float around in a pretty fog. After a lot of listening to each one and to combinations of the two Duelund types, I finally concluded that the most true to life sounding resistor is actually a Mills 12w wirewound. The 12w Mills resistors changed a couple years ago. I prefer the older black body Mills; the newer brown body version is a bit smoother in tonal balance but it doesn't sound quite as detailed or lively as the black body version. However, I would gladly choose either of the Mills 12w resistors over either of the Duelunds. By the way, if you want to try the Duelunds, and one of my values will work for you (5.0, 7.5, and 10.0 ohms) send me a pm. |
It's probably not paper, but "kapton" which is much more heat and age resistant. It may affect the capacitive coupling from input to output somewhat. Of course, no 2 transformer designs are the same at all, ever. I wouldn't focus too much on construction type, you'll go crazy theorizing and never listen to music again. :) Best, E |
Duelund caps and wire coming at month's end. One amp is in repair shop and I was wondering how many of you have plastic or paper bobbin output transformers? This thread started me hearing (and not owning vintage) tube amps thinking how much more real they sounded than new tube amps I had heard. My one vintage amp (one in for repair again) melted down a output tranny. So I took it apart when replacing it. Paper bobbin. The repair guy says it is mostly plastic bobbin now? To me I could imagine this being a huge issue! I have literally almost no plastic in my main system and soon to be in second system. |
At the time I thought two CAST's were too quiet. There was no doubt which cap was technically the best. Yet... Years ago I thought two VSF although nice tone were dynamically flat in comparison to CAST. Tests went best in series. 1. CAST followed by VSF 2. CAST followed by CAST 3. VSF followed by VSF The test had no consideration for cost. At the time I wondered if in time tastes would go more toward CAST strengths and re-rank. I know people then thought I might not even hear the difference but they sounded a LOT different. Thoughts at the time were about resonance. Yes the VSF resonate more but this can add life at a cost. Test material is The Last Waltz Bluray i use the hair stand up on my arms test. Might not sound sophisticated but as a hobbyist I am in this for the thrills! Separation of the band as back up singers is a big difference. Much better with CAST Female voices better for sure with CAST, well all voices. This test is as tough as it was 7 years ago?... The resonance adds life in the VSF. Metallic instruments sound more metallic. Still tough today, if two CAST's are better than CAST/VSF and in this case I don't think so. Maybe CAST followed by RS betters the VSF and the VSF goes to second system? In series I find the two separate styles compliment each other. I have run into a bit of a road block for improvement on main system. Grannyring has sent pics of maybe my last area of significant improvement my lousy connectors. I have VSF midrange cap and VSF woofer inductor, both I am sure would be bettered by CAST but out of my budget and I do not have a second home for them to go to like the tweeter caps. I wish I bought both in CAST, still. Well holiday project is now second system internals to be wired with Duelund tinned covered copper 16ga (WE 16ga as speaker cables) plus a Duelund VSF or RS cap added. Plus elimination of crappy connectors. |