Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil
@erik_squires I contemplated about complaining to PartsConnexion and ask for Path Audio resistors that measure within the advertised 1% tolerance. I decided to keep the resistors just to "see" how the speakers sound with resistors at .5 ohm over spec. I have no complaints about my speakers thus far. |
See the post from @c_avila1 regarding his purchase. He wrote: I also replaced the Duelund Cast resistors to Path Audio resistors. The original resistors' value is 8 ohm. I purchased the Path Audio resistors rated at 8.2 ohm but actually measures at 8.7 ohm (matched pair for Partsconnexion). I hope that doesn't skew the crossover design too much. That's about 6% over spec. At $30/resistor, that's way way too much. Best, E |
@grannyring Normally you’d be right. "High resolution" usually means bright, but not in this case. That’s the whole point about the array. :) By making a large format tweeter they get high-resolution without requiring an uptilt in the frequency response. Of course, this is all theory, but if you ask me "Can large format tweeters/arrays produce much high resolution and detail at the listening location without brightness compared to a simple dome or ring radiator?" My answer would be: "YES!" Same general theory as ESL’s. Only ESL’s can have very complicated and rough frequency responses. Best, E |
Don’t know as I have not heard them. I just keep reading how resolving they are and that is good, but can be.....fatiguing. Those tweeters sell for $57 each at Madisound and he has 14 of them! Just tweeters. He sells the speakers for $3000 shipped, No way he paid even half that. My goodness. Never heard the tweeter. Owners say they are very easy to listen to however. I did not know Path Audio had spec issues? First I heard. Great sound in a two way speaker mod on a Raal tweeter. Fantastic really. |
@grannyring Resistors: I will never use Path Audio. Too far out of spec for me to fuss with. :) It's precision or nothing for me. DI: Well, a 4 way has a lot of potential advantages in dynamic range. Why would you find them aggressive in the upper mids/highs? I'm not personally familiar with those tweeters, but those I respect find them very good. Best, E |
Bill, I have built power resistors using Mills 12 watts as the element. Drilled thru the center of a .875 brass rod coated and set the resistor with Cascade Audio V-Bloc and placed the Mills inside, had these cryo'd. The Vishay's sound better..of course the Vishays were cryo'd as well. Much more open and off the face and out of box. Tom |
You may want to just try Path Audio? They are wonderful. I used the nude Vishay in tube preamps and a dac. They can be ruthlessly revealing and in a speaker may be too much of a good thing. Overall musicality may be harmed on less than stellar recordings. They are ruthless and can sound bright in many systems. Just something to chew on. |
Years ago I rebuilt my set of Dunlavy speakers with Vishay metal film resistors. Their top of the line in the mid 90's. These made more difference than any single part swap I ever made..tears of joy came into my eyes the difference was so huge. Cap swaps wire swaps inductor swaps were like so what ..when compared to the Vishay parallel resistor bridges. The new TX2575 nude Vishay resistors are even better now ..rated at .4 watts .7 watts peak. If you want a power rating suitable for a speaker then you need to purchase 10 of each single value and wire these 10 in parallel to make a suitable power wattage. A 10 ohm resistor would be made up of qty.10 100 ohm resistors. Power rating would be 4 watts 7 watts peak. These are vastly under rated devices. I use the Tx2575's all the way thu my mono blocs amps. A 10 ohm resistor built as described would cost around a $100. Much better sound than the North Creeks or the Mills and better than the older Duelund's which I am told drop in value over the course of a few years. If $100 seems steep for a resistor check this out. http://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/lefson-french-high-end-analog-audio-devices-the-lefson-... When I redo my current crossover and simplify, I will be using the TX 2575's here as well. Tom |
Aesthetics aside....( vomits )...and based on just images... Tweeter array: Those look like SB Acoustics SB29RDCN tweeters. If so, they got them for a steal. Lots of SB Acoustic fans, they sure measure nicely! I think the tweeter array is interesting, and used before in various incarnations, such as McIntosh like the XR100. This is again why I like large surface area tweeters like the AMT’s I use. They can control dispersion and give you amazing clarity and detail at the listening location. That wearing headphones kind of feeling that seems to remove your listening room from the equation. Interesting it is a 4-way design. Probably using the center tweeter as wide-band, while surrounding array is cut off below. I would want to know is whether there is any lobing from the array. Can you move around and hear a pleasant presentation or does it feel as if you are moving across a net of fabric in front of you? What about smoothness? The current "high end" darling speakers are often dominated by rough, but exciting or bright treble. I’m thinking B&W, Focal, Golden Ear. Compare their treble to the best of Magico and you’ll understand my problem. If it really is an SB tweeter array this won’t be a problem. Everything else: Given the price, is the dynamic range of the speaker as a whole would be an important area to check. Static and thermal compression are big differences between high end drivers and cheap pretenders. How well do they play music at full scale in the bottom end AND how well do they play it for an entire song. Overall, I think it’s a very smart use of technology and volume purchasing. :) I would absolutely give them a listen if this format and aesthetics were pleasing to you. Best, E |
Agreed PBN kits look very interesting. Erik, what are your thoughts on the new Tekton Double Impact speaker design? Well respected posters here and reviewers are in agreement that they are as good as it gets. We have read this sort of thing many times on many pieces, but this speaker seems to be a possible outlier and perhaps a true deal of the century? I have not heard them, but admit they have me curious. I do have my doubts they are all that.... |
This may be a good time to talk about speakers and value. The _average_ speaker maker using off-the-shelf parts charges 10x the driver costs. So, $200/speaker = $400 x 10 = $4,000 finished cost. This is so rigid a lot of makers don’t want to use premium crossover compnents. To their credit, Magico and B&W do use pretty pricey parts in the crossover. This is of course retail pricing. Assume 20-30% off for big bulk purchases, even if "custom." If you make your own drivers, from scratch however you end up with an even better ratio, maybe 20-30x. That’s where the big money is. Focal and Monitor Audio are among the brands I’m thinking of. Make your cabinet out of pressed cardboard and it’s even cheaper. :) BTW, I’m a huge Monitor Audio fan, I don’t mean to disparage them, just wanted to explain the biz end. So, in all of this the best value really is the speaker kit. @pbnaudio makes really nice kits out of premium parts you get for a song compared to say, their Sony equivalents. Best, E |
Oops, sorry. the capacitor cost was just for the high-pass filter. :) There are more caps in the low-pass section, but they are using Clarity ESA's and no plan on changing them, with a copper-foil inductor. So, $150 in caps for a $500 tweeter seems reasonable. However, there are far less expensive tweeters that may be very good and worth just as much in caps. Best, E |
Well, the value proposition for me is a little different than for most purchasers as I make my own speakers. As such, based on driver quality, etc. I'm spending MUCH less than most buyers for the same. So in terms of total speaker cost, yeah, the CMR seem expensive, but totally worth it, and balanced with the cost of the drivers and cabinetry. To me, the MR (bypassed) and CMR are among the best caps I've ever heard and probably the most expensive I can afford, so in that sense, they work for me. :) I would love to be able to compare with some Jupiter or Duelund Cu caps, but that's about $700 / speaker here vs. $150 for Clarity CMR. If the CMR really is just as good as Jupiter, then I could make the argument that it is a huge bargain. :) Best, E |
@volleyguy The best bang for the buck, especially when modding inexpensive speakers has to be the Mundorf MKP capacitor. Dead quiet, superb microsonics, but yeah, they are dark. Tonally the opposite of the Mundorf Supreme's. They are also pretty compact so usually can replace cheap film caps in a speaker without major board hacks. At around $7 a cap, they are about 1/10th the cost of the Clarity CMRs we are discussing. Huge bargain. The least value was the silver plated multi-stranded speaker connector cable (internal). Took a long time to break-in and when it did was just as good as the copper it replaced. :) |
Two $5k amps the one on the tweeter was running through a <$2 tweeter capacitor. This leads me to believe we (some of us) are ok with more gear you can see than better parts you can not? That must be visual value rather than sound value. i have no doubt even 2 $20 tweeter caps would blow away a second $5k amp and save one $4960.00. |
Eric i agree! When you mentioned value you struck a cord on the very reason this thread was started! I was looking for caps and this or that person was saying things like all capacitors sound the same for the same capacitance? So in theory then every HiFi company should just use the same cheapest cap? You mentioned a key point about cost of manufacturing vs. selling price. How is the manufacturer compensated for the tedious process of actually listening and evaluating? The repair guy would find us all frustrating your comment about $200 worth of caps destroying $200 worth of the same brand of caps. To him you were nuts in the first place then really nuts again. I think his feeling on us is it is all personal taste and not real qualative difference. I think the importance of threads like this is establishing common generally accepted consensus on what is good and what is not then volume of manufacturing can respond. To me the Duelund RS series (and according to Tony Gee) is a go to cap of good "value" (by no means cheap) now that it is produced in somewhat volume and prices were lowered. The note you struck IS what this thread was all about what is the relative "value" of your higher quality parts you have used? How ow do you place the "value" on your clarity caps vs. other money you have spent? At at one point in time I was bi-amp'ing with two $5k SS amps and I am not even sure it was better?! VERY poor "value" to me! |
@volleyguy1 My statement was very meta about pricing in general. Having just basically destroyed $200 worth of Clarity caps for $200 more / newer Clarity caps I am in no place to lecture anyone about caps. I was just making the general statement that yes, the difference between price and actual cost to manufacture can be quite astonishing. Best, E |
Eric Are you talking about boutique caps? In the the beginning of this thread when purchasing Mundorf Supreme caps and Duelund VSF I went in with the mindset I had just thrown my money away. I could not believe the difference! Then bought what was new at the time CAST caps for the tweeters. I was sure I would not hear the difference from already pricey VSF caps (people even said so at that level one can not tell difference) and when I hooked them up I thought I wired up something incorrect! Sooooo much less noise. i just got back a Fisher 500c from my repair guy who is a great guy and does great work. Spent many hundreds on it and it sounds bad! All run of the mill caps, electrolytics and resistors. Everything is "working" perfect. He has a pair of Duelund VSF caps in the shop that are shot... He put them on the machine to show me. Obviously not impressed. So he has a bias against boutique caps and their "value". I did say those were speaker caps that he pulled out of an amp and were NOT for electronics. (100v caps) He likely pulled $400 worth of caps that were not working and replaced with <$20 that work fine. So we all get where he is coming from. He has also saw 1 or 2 of my Duelund caps leak oil. A Jensen Copper paper tube arc inside and a few leads fall off my Jupiter Copper Foil caps and both Ampohm caps leak. So is he wrong to have a dim view of boutique caps? He can of course not deal with this for repairs. So what is value to him? Or any repair technician? value to me? Since The same guy has fixed up all three Fishers I have which is a run of the mill parts Fisher 500c vs. Hotrod Fisher's I will be testing and retesting the "value" of around $1k per amp in caps. So far for tone and dynamics it's lights out great value to me! |
Schubert I do not want to sound for or against old tubes. The Russian old military spec 7189 tubes were much better than the new Gold Lions 6bq5's I have/had. They sound better and last last way longer. I just wanted to know have you tried the Gold Lion 12ax7's? They sounded great and maybe 10,000 hours is reasonable? Maybe not as long as vintage but my mindset might be to have the vintage for when you really care? My Duelund gutted speakers and amp are not just used for HiFi but movies, TV and my daughter even plays video games on it. (And loves it) Rare vintage tubes for TV and video games seems criminal! That being said I have old 12ax7's that I am sure have more than 10,000 hours on them! |
@volleyguy Maybe, but using BIG foil sheets I got to about 4 nF. That's nano-Farads. :) I think that was double Faraday's original jar though. :) Ask me more specifically, I'm not sure your question about value. But it's just basic sales and marketing. Sell for what you can get, not for what it cost you. That difference can certainly seem to be without rational thinking sometimes, and there have been MANY times when I've been told I should hear something which I did not. Saving me tens of thousands of dollars. :) Best, E |
Eric Some of the oldest Fisher caps of the late '50's were really not much more than your hand made caps. They look like foil and paper hand rolled and dipped in some kind of epoxy. Loose tolerances of 10%. The later Fisher's used machine made Vishay caps from West Germany and they are MUCH better. Even the better Fishers of the same time frame like 400cx preamp (x202) used bigger beefier caps. So bigger beefier albeit more expensive caps has been known for a long time. |
Grannyring "They use the same materials inside, but more material can have a slight impact on the sound" I will look for the info on Duelund caps but I am pretty sure the 600v electronic caps use somewhat different materials to handle the higher volts. I can not say about other caps. I thought I read even the electronic caps are not all natural materials because they can't. |
Hey C_avila1, Depends on the rest of the circuit, but your changes are on the high side, about 10% of the total values for C and R, I would strongly encourage you to stick to the original values, or you’ll hear differences that have nothing to do with the quality of the part. :) You could use something like XSim to simulate an ideal filter /driver combination. This may help you judge what range of changes you are talking about. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/software-tools/259865-xsim-free-crossover-designer.html Best, E |
Tony Gee at Humble Home Made Hifi stated that the higher voltage Jupiter caps sound slightly more spacious in direct comparison to each other. I might get the 600v cap to have the ability to move the caps from speakers to electronics. I'll hold off on The Jupiters while I test the 3uf Aura T Teflon caps that I installed this past weekend for the tweeters. Do you know how much the crossover point moves from using 3uf caps instead of 3.3uf caps? I also replaced the Duelund Cast resistors to Path Audio resistors. The original resistors' value is 8 ohm. I purchased the Path Audio resistors rated at 8.2 ohm but actually measures at 8.7 ohm (matched pair for Partsconnexion). I hope that doesn't skew the crossover design too much. |
Hmmm, per Jupiter's web site, the VT and Copper foil caps should be approximately the same physical sizes. http://jupitercondenser.com/product/vt-round-aluminum-foil-wax-and-paper-capacitors/ http://jupitercondenser.com/product/copper-foil-paper-wax-capacitors/ In other words, BIG! :) Best, E |
Wow! It seems my VT cap is larger? Well it is in the speaker now. I remember Chris had made this 12 uf special/different in some way as part of an initial run I believe. If you are at all interested in Jupiter I highly recommend talking to Chris. Just call the number on his site. We have spoken many times. Great guy who is very understated and humble. |
It depends on the specifics. Some items have huge mark-ups devoid of reason. Speakers on the other hand, except from those who make their own drivers, have a rather well structured cot to sales ratio. Always exceptions, to everything, but it's clear to me that there's a specific range manufacturers try to hit. Bet, E |
No, I definitely like the copper foil better, but could not afford them in my last project. The aluminum (VT) caps are great sounding and much more affordable. The copper foil is more extended in the highs, more resolving, and improved micro details. The aluminum foil is open, warm, beautiful, and big sounding. Nice resolution, but not as refined and resolving as copper. In terms of size, I bet they would be the same, just substituting copper foil. You could ask Chris at Jupiter as he is a great guy to talk to. |
erik, entirely no, but if was even 10% I'd be VERY surprised . A good friend of mine is a prominent German manufacturing CEO. I was with him at Berlin and Munich show as other big-wigs talked suckerology in my presence, maybe they thought I was in the know or a dumb American who did not understand German , beats me . |
