As you see I am a total "goner" living in a cheap apartment with about 50 grand in Audiophile equipment. I am looking at purchasing an old krell "FPB 400 CX" amp that the manufacturer says needs a dedicated 20 amp line. Can you still run this amp off a regular electrical outlet? If you can, will it sound like crap?
Gryphon Cantata's sound quite nice in the smaller rooms I've heard them. It is a nice bonus that they look good too.
Speakers meant to work in smaller spaces and close to the corners or the front wall of the room that I like a lot include Audio Note speakers and the Gradient Revolution. Within the Audio Note line, you can go nuts on upgrade of parts and the results can be quite rewarding. They are reasonably efficient and will work well with low-powered amps. The Gradient speakers are not as efficient, so they need a bit more in the way of amps, but they too sound great when placed near the wall.
I've always thought sealed sounded better as well. I have heard some Wilson speakers and they use ports. I hear the ports at louder volume levels which isn't a good thing. When I think of potted designs I think of a loudspeaker traiding quality sound for efficiency.
I run a pair of Gryphon Cantata speakers, which are designed for a small room. I’m happy with them and I don’t have the problem of bass overhang/boomy bass, that I would face with a larger pair of speakers. These speakers have a separate Q controller which has different settings based on the liveliness of the room. The speakers are meant to take advantage of room gain, the natural amplification of lower frequencies. They’re a sealed design, which I believe is more accurate than a ported speaker.
I've heard Magnepan 3.7 and 1.7 in small apartments/condos, and I have used Acoustat 1+1 and Martin Logan Quests in an apartment. When I replaced the Quest with a horn-based system, I was shocked to find how much more sound seemed to spill out of the listening area than was the case with dipole speakers, meaning that I have to play the speaker at a lower volume level so as to not disturb neighbors. Horn systems, because of their directivity, are supposed to be good at not disturbing neighbors, but, they are not as good as dipoles in that respect.
The limitations imposed by an apartment do not mean one cannot go crazy in building a sound system, it just means going crazy in a different way. I am in that camp. I own three amplifiers, the most expensive currently retails near six figures and the one I am currently running I could easily sell for $25,000. The much more expensive reserve amp (on loan to a friend) has a rated output of 6.5 watts/channe; the one I am currently running has an output around 5.5 per channel.
Large dipole's in an apartment? I am going to grab some NEOLITH's then!!! Hook em up to some SYMPHONIC LINE MONOS!!! IN MY 500 SQUARE FT SECTION 8 APARTMENT IN THE LAS VEGAS HOOD!!!
I know some of your comments are in jest, but, the idea of comparing outrageous apartment systems, with the measure being the inappropriateness of the gear seems to be the wrong approach to making a good actual choice. The best sound is achieved by employing the right gear for the apartment setting. This does not necessarily mean tiny speakers and really low-powered amps.
For example, if you look in Japanese audio magazines, you will see a lot of systems with very large horn-based speakers in tiny apartments. Why? It is because horns can sound extremely vibrant and alive when actually playing at quite low volume--a good attribute in an apartment with thin walls. That horn systems also tend to be very efficient is another great attribute because most of the very best amplifiers (in my opinion) are low-powered amps.
You can also get very dynamic sound at low volume with high efficiency fullrange drivers used either in single-driver fullrange systems or with the full-range driver used in multi-way systems. Most of these types of systems are also quite efficient.
Even large dipole panel speakers might be appropriate in an apartment, if you can get them out into the room. Dipoles tend to concentrate the sound within a narrow field (the back and front wave are out of phase and cancel at the sides) and will sound pretty loud without spilling that loudness throughout the apartment (and into the next apartment).
There are many other ways to achieve good apartment sound, but, large subwoofers and hundreds of watts of power are the least likely way to get there.
Jeff, the whole power issue with the Krell 400cx and similar generation amps is very confusing and IMO, Krell is to blame.
The owners manual is clear and supports what Krell told you in your original post.
From the 400cx owners manual.
"Make sure the AC line is at least 15 amps for 300cx and 350Mc amplifiers; 400cx, 450Mcx, 700cx, and 750Mcx amplifiers should be operated from a dedicated 20-amp line."
Issue The power cord unlike the previous generation FPB series is captive (sealed); so adding 20 amp service would entail making modifications to the power cord. Like cutting off the wall side and attaching the 20 amp plug. Who would want to do this on a multi thousand dollar brand new amp at the time? imo - Krell only did the 15 amp wall plug especially on the 400cx and up models for sales.
FYI Pre CX series Krell amps had detachable cords. One could see the 20amp outlet design on the amp. The factory cord was a "dummy" power cord that had a 20 amp plug on the amp side and a 15 amp plug for the wall. All owners I know, including me, would just add in 20amp service and buy or make an aftermarket 20 amp power cord.
Could not and should not is sometimes two different things. As pointed out by oddio there is a bit of nonsense, at least mis-understanding, here. By law, any device, appliance, or component actually requiring a 20A circuit must be equipped with or required by the manufacture to have a 20A rated cord with a 20A plug (easy to recognize as the neutral spade is at a right angle to the hot spade - so it can not be plugged into a 15A socket) Looking at the amp's specs and photos of it's dedicated power cord, with a standard 15A plug, I can say that a 20A circuit is not required. Can it be plugged into a 20A circuit - Yes. Is a 20A circuit required to operate this amp - No. So that is the answer too "Could". As far as "Should" - well that depends on a few things. First, is the building and included apartments up to code? Second do you have an outlet on the wall where you would put the amp, that you can leave as dedicated, with nothing else plugged into that circuit? Third, where ever you put the amp, make sure it plugs directly Into the outlet (no extension cords). Upgrading the outlet would help and possibly a good power conditioner (depending on if the power from the outlet is noisy and on what Krell (not a dealer , but the tech dept. at Krell) recommends. I would say it would work fine as long as you're not driving a pr of 1 Ohm Apogees at 110db. In which case they'd probably kick you out anyway...Jim
It sure makes feel better knowing there is someone who has outdone me. Almost like attending an AA meeting where you are welcome and appreciated. The real winner in that combo is not the Krell 750's BUT you had TWO REL's hooked up living in an apartment. Priceless.
I had Krell 750 MCx's in an apartment back in the day with WATT/Puppy 6s and two REL Stentors. I split a 240v wall heater circuit and bypassed the thermostat. They were on separate legs of the AC but sounded great nonetheless. They ran hot so I didn't miss the heater. I had them under a coffee table and the the cat loved the heat they gave off. My upstairs neighbors were saints and said my music through the floor sounded better than their stereo in their apartment. I definitely got away with murder...
Magico's?? Damn, they are some amazing loudspeakers. Out of my league price wise but you gotta be ballin to live in New York anyways. So far, you have the best system I have heard of in an apartment. Anyone else top that?
To finish the thought: I run the amp into an Audience AR6T power conditioner. Also run a VTL 7.5iii pre into amp, and PS Audio DSD DAC (w/Bridge II streamer), Bryston BDP-1 digital transport, and Sansui TU-1X tuner into pre. Power cables include Elrod Statement Silver from Audience to the wall; AQ Hurricane from pre; Cardas Clear Beyond XL (my new favorite)from DAC. IC's are High Fidleity CT-1 from tuner; CT-1 Ultimate from DAC; and Audience AU24SX XLR from pre to amp. All in an an 800 sq. ft. apt! Neal
I have had my Krell FPB 300cx amp on a rack in my one BR NYC apt. for almost 4 years, without any issues. The important thing is to give it headroom to breathe. Have not had any problems, continues to function perfectly powering my Magico A3's. Neal
Quite a lot of nonsense responses here. I suppose a little knowledge is dangerous. As has been alluded to, there should be no problem running the Krell. Regardless of not using all it's available power, the larger Krells sound better than the smaller ones and this alone can justify the purchase. As for the 300 watts at idle, this is common in high-end. Most amps draw between 100 to 200 watts at idle with some extremes running to 1200 to 1500 watts. The suggestion that you need to have strong A.C. because of the 300 watt idle is just audiophile lore. If you have a ton of gear, already you have hundreds of watts at idle, the Krell is not going to add that much more. Additionally I have found that you don't need to have the Krell on all the time at any rate. An hour or two turn on before listening will suffice to stabilize the sound quality. Enjoy!
In terms of size and weight why would you even want this in a small apartment especially if at some point you want to change things around? I honestly wish I had the space for something like this but you might see it turn into a major headache physically in spite of it sounding good.
What is the size and weight? It looks like a beast though I bet it sounds great.
No, you cannot run this amp in your apartment. Take it from one who has had both the FPB 300cx AND the 400cx. I ran my 300cx in a condo and CONSTANTLY was blowing circuits. The 400cx actually has TWO power supplies and absolutely requires a dedicated 20 amp circuit. Given your space, you will absolutely fine with a 300cx and it will sound great.
I live in an apartment in New York City and put in two dedicated 20A lines and a brand new panel after discovering that the old panel was manufactured in the 1950s, and had been declared a fire hazard. I had the electrician put in hospital grade outlets. I bought the apartment, though, that might not be so easy in a rental but what landlord would say no to a tenant upgrading the electrical system on their own dime?
The super in my building told me that ConEd ran new wires from the basement to my apartment, in the chase, because there had been a fire in a lower level apartment years ago and the smoke went into the chase. So, I lucked out, I guess.
I run a massive Gryphon Colosseum stereo amp driving a pair of Gryphon Cantatas. The sound is clean and deep, and smooth. I don’t play loud, or late at night, so nobody has complained. I run the Niagara 5000 as a power conditioning unit and have all of my gear plugged into it, so I have an unused 20A line.
Anyway, talk to a licensed electrician and enjoy the music!
I have an old KSA 50. I don’t use it all the time, but love it nonetheless even thought it is bass heavy. Krells have a soft start so I don’t think you’ll have a problem unless you’re trying to make your ears bleed. =)
In my house (old four square) and 20x25x10 living room, my KSA-50 gives off some serious heat. But then, who cares. The sound is amazing..
I really like the dynamics and rock solid deep bass of these amps. Could the be a little smoother? Sure, but I like them. Remember this is a D’AGOSTINO design and still a respected product. Buy one of his current amps and see what that will set you back. Lol! Enjoy!
Jeff, I don’t believe you will hear a difference in weather or not you have a 20amp breaker or 15 amp unless you’re running full tilt maximum output, which I doubt it if you in an apartment. The only way the breaker will come into play is if you suck more power that it can handle and it will trip the breaker. Now, that being said if you have a dedicated line for the amp with nothing from the rest of the apt on it, then that will sound cleaner due to isolation tho no the breaker size. As far as harming the amp: well I have be running a Krell 300c on a regular 15 amp line for years with no issues but I don’t play my music at ear shattering levels. My amp was built in the late 1990s and is working fine to this day. It does run run a little warm being class A however I like the Class A sound. I’m sure there are many amps out there that will sound a bit better but I’m pretty happy with this one for now. If you’re really concerned I’d call Krell.
I don't know about the specifics of this amp, but, something that old that cost so much back then would be astronomically higher in price in today's market. I doubt that there have been much technological advances in amp design that this amp would be easily outperformed at this price level. Of course this is all contingent on the amp being in flawless condition.
All Krells run hot, and heat always shortens the life of components. If this has been a heavily used amp, it might not be worth the price of purchase and refurbishing. There really is no way of knowing, so it is a bit of a gamble. It is good to hear that Krell can still service the amp, that is not always the case with old solid state gear.
I’m sensing you going against all instincts here and getting the amp... I’ve done that before too. Makes for a longer road (and $$) than expected to get where you're ultimately meant to be.
Boulder 850s ( now discontinued) might be a great "apt. amp' Small 40 lb boxes, run cool, I think they sound great with proper preamp .
They are rated at 200 w/ch but fight above their weight. Some people find them to dry but I prefer the power amp remain neutral and adjust the tone of the system via, front end componets and cabling.
I would not be that comfortable buying a 30-year old solid state amp. Many of the components, like the output transistors, may be hard to replace if they go bad. Tube gear is quite different in that most of them can be relatively easily serviced and stuff that is 60-70 years old don't give me much concern.
If you are now considering alternatives to the Krell, it would help to know about the rest of your system, that is, if sound quality is of some importance.
I don't quite understand going to extremes to fit in one piece of gear instead of looking for something appropriate to the system and the venue. A small apartment should mean looking for suitable speakers and then electronics that work well with the speakers. I cannot imagine why some high-powered behemoth is suitable, even if the speakers are notoriously inefficient or need some juice to come alive.
I would just make sure the plug has 12gage wire. If it is 14gage which I've seen before, it will be like trying to suck a bowling ball through a garden hose, electrical wise. Of course the a generator/inverter on the balcony may be an option.
Boulder? Yeah, I will check them out. They run cooler than Krells. Might be more musical. Plus if they break, Colorado is a lot closer to me than Connecticut. I see a few on market. Harley's and high end Audio, a great combination
I let a friend store his Harley in my basement ( I live on a hill so it a walk in bsmt.) one winter. then he came to pick it up, he started it in the house rather than pushing it out first.
Wife just came down and gave me the "look". Storage depot closed for business.
Get some big Boulders. They play loud and strong and you can keep clothes only while listening. However, they will burn down your credit rating.
There is a 20 amp breaker in the box for the Air conditioner. That's the only thing on the breaker. I am going to plug the KRELL into that and go without air conditioning. I will have to listen to my system naked wearing ice packs in the summer as the Las Vegas heat and the KRELL will heat the room up to about 125 degrees. Well worth it for good sound. I am so gone.
Standard 12ga wire will carry 20amps with no problem if the amp is the only appliance on that particular circuit. If you dedicate one breaker to the amp, the wiring in the apartment should carry the load without heat build-up. Standard construction code usually requires 12ga wire, but I would check the guage of wire on the outputs of the breakers just to be sure.
At least with the KRELL when someone tries to steal it they will blow their back out trying to move it. It also can serve as a space heater in the winter. So even though I may be spending 4 grand on a 30 year old amp that probably doesn't sound good anymore it has some other uses. Plus it looks cool.
You will get all the legally allowed low bass extension you desire . And likely will not draw more than 8 amps anyways. I’m waiting for the electric utility to switch my panel so i will have the 2x 20amp plugs available . Right now i am running 60amps worth of gear off a single 15. You would have to be doing something pretty outrageous to blow it.
I'm not sure what the 15amp circuit will do to the sound quality but I have run plenty of construction machinery over 15amp circuits and they trip the breakers constantly. If we run it on a 20amp circuit we do not experience the problem. If you run the Krell on 15amps and someone turns on a microwave or hairdryer or a coffee maker, that's on the same circuit as the receptacle the Krell is on, you may be making trips to the breaker box
Back when I 'webchatted' for grins, I used to host the Krell Bar....
"Any inconceivable potion you desire...but you WILL clean up your mess."
Sure, a Krell in an apartment, no prob. The neighbors will be a bit cranky when you 'brown-" or 'black out" them, but you'll get to meet them. What sort of 'tude you'll greet will vary...almost guaranteed.
Anytime, you can break your rent agreement...inadvertently as well. Without having to go 'full right rudder', after a fashion....
You could always set up in a 'common area' and hold raves... Tape the windows first.
You may get to replace it if the insurance company agrees to cover it being 'borrowed' by an 'admirer' of it. Pity they forgot to bring it back....
Your neighbors are going to despise you. When I bought my condo My amp was a 125 wpc Soundcraftsman pushing a pair of Studio 60 Paradigm's. After 2 months I was almost tossed from my own home. I downgraded to a Marantz 2252B and a pair of Yamaha NS500's. My neighbors and my ears are all happy the last 5 years now.
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