Cheapest route would be to add a Pangea 9SE power cord; it will add bass. Usually ~$150
Can cables of any cost and quality provide bass response missing in my B&W speakers?
I'm sure variants of this question have been offered previously, but let me ask in light of the following: I have a very modest main system powered by an Adcom 555II amp, Adcom GFP-750 pre-amp, and run into a pair of B&W CM-4 speakers (6.5in woofer, 6.5in. woofer/mid. and tweeter, and bi-wireable). Any music with a moderate-to- heavy bass component (organ, bass fiddle, etc) just doesn't translate to my ear. I'm using a mid-range pair of Monster cables, and in fact tried a second pair of Z-Series to no audible difference. On the other hand I have a legacy pair of a/d/s 1090L tower speakers (2x7.5in woofers, 6in. mid-range, tweeter) that deliver thundering bass when needed regardless of cabling used, and powered by the same system. Even tried passive bi-amping for the B&Ws by using an old Carver M-500t amp for HF input, and Adcom amp for LF input...no diff. Is there any point really in looking at higher-end speaker wire of, e.g., thicker gauge, or exotic geometry, or multi-conductor "shotgunning", whatever, in order to induce greater LF response from the CM-4s? Thanks for your patience.
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Just so that you know, I took a look at the Furez cable and they do not seem to be anything more than just normal stranded 12awg conductors. It does use foamed polyethylene insulation, which will be a much better coating than plastic/PVC of the monster cable or monoprice stuff. It may be sounding better, but I would not expect a whole lot. I just replaced another system with Audioquest rocket cables and it also made a significant improvement. Nothing really compares to solid-core conductors in my experience, even the radically expensive Furutech OCC copper stranded still doesn't sound quite as solid and natural as cheaper solid-core. |
compass, Douglas Connection Furez are very nice copper cables. In addition to my Cerious Tecnnology Graphene Extreme cables, I have a set of Douglas Connection Alpha 12 AWG OCC Speaker Cables with Furutech rhodium connectors, which retail for ~$1,200 for a 9 foot run. Both the Cerious GE and DC Alpha 12 cables allow great sound, but in comparing them, somehow the Graphene Extreme seem to have a wider frequency range, in that both the treble and bass seem to be more extended. I also get a great sound stage, imaging, and depth with the GE. Perhaps I'll hook the Alphas back up and "re-compare" them at some point. When/if I ever get a big center channel speaker, I plan to use the Alpha to connect it. |
Per thread in "Speakers, new surrounds have given new life to the CM-4s, excellent bass/hi-bass/midrange, and speakers up and running. Using some rilly old Monster cables temporarily, have ordered from Douglas Connections Furez 4x12awg pure Cu wire, and some 2x12awg for messing about with some biwire combos, and some fairly inexpensive 10awg Western Electric cloth-encased Sn-coated Cu wire, "gen-u-wine" WE kit, so the seller says. For round ca. $100, cheap enough for some diverse experimental approaches to amp-speaker hookups. Not expecting much, but the Monsters have to go...old and getting frayed. |
+1 csmgolf. "they can be the icing on the cake for a well sorted out system." If your speakers have bass limitations maybe getting the most out of them still won’t make you happy. I have speakers that have twin 7" bass drivers and they are rated to 30hz +/- 3db. They go lower that that with rolloff increasing. Bass is very good and adequately low but still not chest pounding that only a larger driver can do. My speakers are also in a much higher price tier than the speakers in question here, but the bass capability is indeed there. I also, like mtrot, use the Cerious Technology Graphene Extreme speaker cables and agree that these are one of the better cables out there that clearly have allowed the bass potential of my speakers to be unleashed. Prior <$500 cables were good, but the CTs were a huge jump in performance. I’ve been historically frugal but these changed my thinking, enough to know what can be achieved. The point here is that cables don’t make bass, rather they permit whatever is possible to come forth. Great cables do make a difference, but I still would not spend a disproportionate amount on cables based on the speaker price. Maybe 10-20% of the speaker price for cables is certainly warranted however as component investments go. Cerious Technologies just launched their new price-no-object (still not ridiculous) line of cables that early upgraders are saying is worth the jump. For my system the price would still fall in the 10-20% range of my speakers. I am tempted to eek out that last bit of bass. One of the early upgraders has my speakers and is raving that the bass is even stronger, deeper sounding (not in actual measurement - that’s not possible), and better controlled than before. For me, I will probably pull that trigger when funds are available. My system is built around the speakers, so getting the most out of them is worth it to me. |
If the ADS speakers have adequate bass in the same system as you state, then it is clear that the problem is the B&W speakers. I believe cables can make a subtle, but musically important difference. They will not fix what is wrong with the speakers. Spending money on cables in this instance is the wrong move, IMO. Properly selected cables are not tone controls as Inna stated, but they can be the icing on the cake for a well sorted out system. |
High Fidelity Cables (HFC) has various products that I would highly recommend. I have their Reveal line of cables to include RCA, XLR, and power cable. Each product significantly benefited my system. Surprisingly, you may want to start with their MC-0.5 power conditioner. My first experience with HFC was with the MC-0.5 - it increased clarity, fullness, depth and soundstage presence. |
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Cable evaluation suspended until I can have one of the high-bass/midrange cones refoamed! Existing surround lost its elasticity and in fact cracked in several places after gentle probing with finger...don't think I ever removed cloth driver covers until a couple of days ago when my daughter heard "crackling" in left h-b/midrange cone...totally shocked to see condition of the surround. |
I've never, ever, EVER been satisfied with the bass from woofers of 8" or less. Yes, the sound can be great... but not "satisfying"... to me. Even when you stack dual 8's or three 6.5's... it always sounds like little drivers working hard to me. I've got 12's in the living room (old B&W 801s2's), and 15's in my studio, and they ARE satisfying! I've owned Martin Logans with 10"s that were satisfying. You are not going to find the bass in the cables somehow. |
Whoa, it’s a fair cop, totally wrong about Al residential wiring re:NEC...just retailing anecdotal hearsay when our then 50s-vintage house was getting totally rewired in late 70s....however, Al cable from mid-60s-early 70s was really not reliable for long-term use in residential construction, and building inspectors were obliged to report use of when homes changed ownership. Insurers demanded this, and would in many cases refuse policies unless homeowners made necessary upgrades. From what I now understand there is now an Al alloy in use much superior to early wiring, but given price of Cu cable today, find me a developer who would order his subs to use Al-based wiring. |
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Something else that might improve bass depth and clarity would be to decouple the speaker cabinets from the floor. You can make inexpensive decouplers with Moongels wrapped in adhesive felt drawer liners. These worked wonders in my system. If you hear a worthwhile difference, you will find many competent commercial decoupling systems that work well. If your power amp is ~ 20 years old, it is likely that replacing the four large electrolytic filter caps also will help with bass and overall performance. Obviously, replacing caps is a more difficult and expensive project to consider. All other above suggestions are well worth trying also. Good luck in solving your problem. |
compass_rose Strictly OT, but FWIW...“cleeds”...back in the day CCA was in fact the “go-to” residential conductor wire...however, because of well-documented hazards with this wire (mainly due to its adverse expansion- contraction properties under normal electrical demand loads) this wire was banned for residential construction years ago ...Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. CCA still meets the US NEC. See, for example: NEC Table NEC310.15(B)(16) The problem with aluminum wiring isn't so much the wire itself, btw, but issues with termination. While I still don't care for the stuff, you're simply mistaken that it is "banned" for BCBW use. But we are way OT here. |
Strictly OT, but FWIW...“cleeds”...back in the day CCA was in fact the “go-to” residential conductor wire...however, because of well-documented hazards with this wire (mainly due to its adverse expansion- contraction properties under normal electrical demand loads) this wire was banned for residential construction years ago, and is only found in legacy buildings. Whenever one is looking at an old building with “sound bones“, take a screwdriver and pocket-knife with you and unscrew any switch or outlet cover plate then scrape gently at the “neutral” wire...if it’s “shiny” metallic and not obviously copper, walk away! Cheers. |
oldguide Aluminum wire is prohibited by code from any home or commercial wiring, so ...Actually, aluminum wiring is very much allowed in the U.S. under the NEC, although I don’t trust the stuff. It’s also almost universally used for electric distribution - almost all of the overhead electric wires you see on utility poles are aluminum. |
Aluminum wire is prohibited by code from any home or commercial wiring, so if you are buying at a reputable store you don't have to worry. You need not go to Monoprice to buy stranded 12 gauge. As for the issue at hand, it is a basic law of physics wire cannot change pitch. However, coat it with snake oil and it can do anything. Of course, the price of snake oil varies. It's also extremely slippery. |
@compas_rose: This is in response to the question you asked in this thread on 12/22. Please bear with me while I get to your question. I want to start by saying that if you want to purchase speaker cables that are professionally manufactured in my opinion one would have a hard time doing any better than the Cerious Technologies Graphene speaker cables, they seem to work well with all types of amps, a heck of a lot of bang for the buck and I highly recommend them as others in this thread have already stated. If you wanted to spend more money consider the new Cerious Technologies Graphene Matrix speaker cables, although I have not heard them I've heard from good sources that they are excellent. I currently made, own, and use Duelund Tinned-copper in cotton oil impregnated wire 16 gauge, 12 gauge, and the Heavey Duty Western Electric wire 10 gauge. I prefer the sound of the Dueiund wire and I run the 12 gauge on the lower speaker terminals and the 16 gauge on the speaker upper terminals. I would say that the WE is a warmer fuller sound where the Duelund is clean, transparent and more detailed. I also use the KLEI™Classic Harmony Banana Connector (new product) on the speaker cables I made. Originally I ran the speaker wire bare, however, I believe the cables sound better with the bananas I mentioned. You might find this SAudiogon forum interesting: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/how-much-difference-could-a-simple-banana-plug-make I'm liking what I'm hearing! |
Compass_Rose. Others here spoke of "polarity." But, what I can gather from what they spoke of? Was to check the "phase" to make sure both speakers are wired the same. You may find if you reverse both speaker's leads - red to the black, and black to the red- that will reverse polarity. If one pair of speakers was designed with reverse polarity one pair will produce less bass. Simply reverse the leads to BOTH speakers. Then listen. Correcting the polarity should produce more bass. |
I agree with a lot of comments here. Attenuating your speaker’s capabilities through cabeling doesn’t seem like the best solution. I would add stereo subs to handle 35hz and below. Pretty impressed with my SVS subs, great price, look and sound of course any quality sub will work great. Speaker placement can be a factor and something to look out for when you add subs so you aren’t sitting in a null or peak due to your room characteristics. This can be controlled to some extent by EQ but even better then stereo subs is a sub array (4 or more subs.) Getting involved in the physics of sound and measurement is fun but also gets complicated quick. Be careful chasing the white rabbit, you never know what you’ll find. |
One last thought from the OP here: a thread on AudioKarma caught my eye just today, where a commenter has both the CM-4 and a/d/s L1090 speakers, and also finds that the CM-4 is rather thin in bass, especially doing an A/B test v. L1090. Exactly my finding as well. http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/a-d-s-l1090-info.761221/ |
Well, very spirited discussion indeed! To settle a couple of points raised: my existing Adcom back-end can very successfully drive the a/d/s L1090 towers...unfortunately the original data sheet on the speakers was lost in a move, so I can't determine speaker efficiency vis-vis the B&W CM-4s, which are rated at 90dB/W/m, but I would presume the former to be a bit more efficient than the latter. I'm still going to carry on evaluating some raw speaker wire, but definitely coming round to the view that the CM-4 constitutively lack strong bass presence, and perhaps best to work in the sub in a more blended fashion to support music playback of all genres. |
@ compass_rose In light of comments here, I guess I should clarify that my recommendation of the GE cables was not mean to claim or imply that they would somehow magically transform your speakers into bass dynamos. It's just that you specifically asked about cables that might help your bass situation, and I believe these might. And I wouldn't recommend them at all if bass was the only thing they did well. In addition to the deep bass, I noticed great sound stage and imaging, vocals are very nice, and the highs are clear and pure. There is what I would call an "immediacy" to the music. I think you would enjoy them even if they had no affect on the bass. If you have the money to give them a try, don't let anyone talk you out of it just because, in their learned opinion it just cannot be true. You have a 30 day period to try them. And, no, I have no affiliation with this company; feel free to check my posting history and you will see that I have not posted on these cables in years. |
kost - please don't enflame this conversation as you have done with many other conversations. We have already determined and stated that bass is a limitation of the speaker's woofer characteristics and box design. OP is simply asking if there is any way cables can improve things. While I agree that cable has somewhat of a limited effect here, it can make the existing bass signals a bit stronger. roberjerman - see my statement. Obviously, as stated before, OP speaker is limited on woofer/cabinet design. |
And whatever you do don't go blowing a bundle on some magical cable that supposed to have amazing base… Cables make very very minimal difference at best. Since this is a signal carrying cable I won't say that it makes no difference, but it will be very minimal. I will say that power cords make absolutely no difference as long as they are large enough gauge to carry the appropriate amount of current. |
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In response to the idea of using 10/2 romex, there are one or two companies that are doing very large awg solid-core speaker cable like this. However, in my testing, I have found that the awg of the solid core will dictate the frequency response. Smaller conductors (such as 22awg) will transfer high frequencies but not low. Larger conductors will transfer low frequency waveforms well, but not higher frequencies. When I tested using conductors down to 18awg and 16awg, I found a roll-off of high frequency response. It become very "low fidelity" and I also found that there was a boominess or "blare" in the lower midrange. (solid-core silver may be different, but then again, silver has it's own problems). If you look at the Audioquest Midnight, you can see that it uses a combination of 3x17awg, 2x19awg and 2x21awg conductors to support the full frequency range. The Type 8 uses four different conductors (16/18/19/20) to support the frequency range. One note, if you get the Type 8, I would not recommend doing a bi-wire configuration because you are splitting off two of the conductors away from the woofers. With this cable and your speakers, you want as much conductor for the woofers as possible. You could, however, get two sets of Type 8 speaker wire and use one set for the lower/woofers and the second set for the mids/highs. I have read a lot of "raves" about the Duelund 16awg. I did take a look at it. It uses oil/silk fabric wrap, which is excellent for dielectric, but it's still just stranded copper. I haven't tried it, but I would suspect that I would still like the Audioquest Type 8 better than the Duelund. I have used very expensive OCC copper STRANDED Furutech cabling, and it still doesn't sound as good as low end solid-core (it just doesn't sound right in my opinion). |
