Has dampened my Thorens 160 B MK 2 as you describe with great results.
Can an old Thorens Table be "Over Dampend" to the point where sound is adversely effected?
I am sure this topic is not new but I would like a new take on it...So the question is: Can one Over Dampen an older suspension chassis Thorens like a 125,145,160,166 etc.? I am only (in this post) regarding the exposed inner wood of the plinth like the base and inner walls. I have heard in some venues that it is easy to over dampen and KILL the dynamics of one of these older tables...Are they referring to more of the damping of the motor, platter, suspension parts etc. basically the metal parts or any damping? What are your thoughts?
Thanks!
Thanks!
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There is a dulling of the sound, a prime example would be using some BDR products, I really like there racing cones and use them throughout my system coupling them with their disc and in some instances had to go back to just their cones. Damping correctly, doesn't that mean not over or under doing it? |
"Atmasphere"...What is an example of damping correctly?Using an appropriate damping material (extensional when damping surfaces; constrained when damping between surfaces), not using damping when coupling is required (such as between the arm and the plinth), not using damping materials on the arm in such a way that the performance is compromised. For the most part, common sense. |
A lot of people like to dampen these older Thornes tables either on the interior of the wooden plinth or all over the inner metal spring board, and arm board, they use things like "Blue Tac" or that Dynamat stuff in car doors. It will kill the sound and rob the life out of the music. The best thing you can do is make sure the springs are working properly and lubricate them and if possible remove the deteriorating foam plugs in the springs. And have the table on a good non resonant level shelf. I own a TD160 and it has been semi-rewired (Morrow Audio pwr/ic from wiring block, stock tonearm wire to block) this really opened up the soundstage and added much needed detail. The biggest upgrade to the sound was putting a Grado Prestige wood body on the TP16 tone arm (match made in heaven). Matt M |
Thanks all for all the input! So here is the "whole story": I actually dampened my 125 Long Base on the new Birch Base Plate and all interior walls that I could safely reach It was quite a bit and I was quite proud of myself and my work, that was until I played my first record...a record that I listen to often and know very well. What can I say the sound lost it's dynamics, Soundstage and worst of all it's verve! I was nervous I jacked up my stylus or worse my new pre-amp (EAR-834P) it was THAT BAD, so I tried a few other albums that I know to no avail and it was all BAD! So I re-traced my steps and it came back to the dampening job that I was so proud of. So the next step was to open her up and remove all the damping that I did, put her back together and tried listening again and, thank the Audiogods, the magic had been restored! The same Dynamic expansive soundstage was back and most importantly the verve was restored! I was very surprised that the dampening affect on the sound of my 125 was so different than the sound on my 145! The 145 came alive while the 125 died. So the lesson here is damping DOES affect sound and one size does not fit all so let those with direct experience on your particular project be your guide! And yes I was told it [damping] was not necessary on this Table by its restorer but I did it anyway...Lesson learned. |
Your experiences should be a salutary lesson to some, about the dangers of 'over-damping'. Here is a quote from a learned dissertation on vibrations:- Damping is always present to some degree in any real system. Without it, there would be no way to limit the amplitude of a resonance. The materials employed to provide damping, the ratio of these materials to those elements that need damping, and the method in which they are applied, all determine how effective any scheme is at reducing broad-band vibrations. However, you cannot mechanically "over-damp" a structure or component that is not designed to be a transducer. You can over-damp some circuits electrically; you can over-damp the "Q" of a speaker as well. You can also over-damp structures associated with a phono cartridge: a tonearm, plinth, etc. But you cannot over-damp a preamp's chassis or an equipment rack. Note the 'over-damping'revelations concerning phono cartridge, tonearm and plinth. Despite what some here have been propagating for years....over-damping of turntables, arms etc is not only possible, but can deleteriously affect the sound. |
A lot of people like to dampen these older Thornes tables either on the interior of the wooden plinth or all over the inner metal spring board, and arm board, they use things like "Blue Tac" or that Dynamat stuff in car doors. It will kill the sound and rob the life out of the music. Despite what some here have been propagating for years....over-damping of turntables, arms etc is not only possible, but can deleteriously affect the sound.You do have to be careful. But damping a plinth usually dosen't get you in trouble, unless that plinth is so floppy to begin with that all you really did was to change the resonant frequency! One area where people get in trouble is damping the arm board. The arm board has to be rigidly coupled to the plinth to insure that it moves in whatever plane the plinth moves (a corollary is that if the arm board is of a different material from the plinth it can introduce a coloration all by itself). If you've damped it incorrectly, that may not happen and the result is that the pickup will interpret the difference between the plinth and the base of the arm as a coloration. The other problem you have to really be keen on is to make sure that you are not treating the turntable as a sort of tone control to synergize with weaknesses elsewhere in the system. |
Dear @atmasphere : """
not using damping materials on the arm in such a way that the performance is compromised. For the most part, common sense. """ it's clear that we can't overdamp a TT plinth, as you said maybe only change its frequency resonance. The key word in all this critical main analog audio damping subject is: " compromised ". If the damping impede the " free " horizontal/vertical tonearm motion or increment its friction movements then we are in serious trouble but if damping in a tonearm does not contribute against its task then we can't overdamp it. Same for a cartridge, we can't overdamp as a fact we need and want an innert cartridge other than the stylus/cantilever precise movements ridding the LP grooves. The arm board mated to the tonearm is of vital importance and here what we need is " serious " coupling in between. A TT platter can't be overdamped neither, what we can have here is a bad damping but can't overdamp it. We need here an innert TT platter with out compromising its function. All these damping theories and facts move on according to quality performance at each single link in the audio system chain and what the owner is accustom to or according his music/sound priorities and knowledge levels. For many of us maybe to much damping could means words as: dull, reduced stage, lower transparency and the like but for other of us this is what we are looking fr because could be nearer to the live event in a near field listen scenario. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
This is one of those discussions where only a few of the participants are in learning mode, and the rest of us find an opportunity to trot out our own pet beliefs. Such is the nature of this hobby, and it's fine. So, here's my opinion: You can divide turntables into two types, those that were designed to be acoustically inert in the first place and those that were designed to flex in some sort of controlled mode that theoretically would contribute to the "sound" of the whole system, in a positive way (Linn, for example) or would improve isolation from the environment. The latter group includes all suspended turntables. And all of the latter group would be sensitive to aftermarket modifications of either the suspension or the suspended parts of the table. Obviously, if you add damping to the sprung chassis, you increase its mass, and this has a secondary effect on the suspension, because it's "seeing" a bigger load. Conversely, if you impede the action of a spring suspension, that too will have an audible effect. All of the foregoing can get to be very complex, if one were able to see it as an engineering problem. This is why I have grown to prefer unsuspended turntables designed from the outset to be acoustically as dead as possible, which usually means high mass. Like Atma says, this would include the system from tonearm to armboard to plinth. Halcro did some great things with massive external "pods" for mounting the tonearm, and that seems to work fine, too. For turntables in this category, we don't need no stinkin' damping, at least no additional damping beyond what is inherent in the structure. |
Dear @lewm : Massive TT/platters are not innert just because weigths 300kgs or more. Are inert for you or me but not for the extremely senstive microphone that's a cartridge with that so low output that as you know could be only 0.01 mv!!!!! A massive structure is inert in rest but things are that TT are for spining and in that spining job exist a dynamic mass that resonate and cause micro vibrations that a human been can't detect but certainly your Ortofon MC 2000 can and does that. Things are not so easy as many of us can think or a TT massive designers presents to us. Look " outside " those behemonts TTs with really heavy weigths in the hundred of kgs. where the ignorant level of we customers are buying and paying higher prices than ever over 150K+ for each and every one could think that are inert by definition but it's not. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
"Over-damped" implies there is an optimal amount of damping. At one time, the Linn Sondek and Oracle Delphi were considered the two best tables available. Their designs could not have been more different; the Oracle employed damping (particularly of the LP by it's mat), the Linn not. They sounded very different, people preferring one to the other. Was the Oracle over-damped, or the Linn under-damped? A table's design is a combination of many different elements, offered as a complete package by it's designer. Perhaps it's better to leave a given design as is, and if one wants a more or less damped table, get one designed as such. But as a mechanical transducer, why would one want the table itself to add vibrations or resonances of it's own to the tiny vibrations contained in the LP groove? There was a table designed from the ground up, done as a research project at an engineering college in England. A fundamental element of it's design is a trough of damping fluid, in which a little hollow tube attached to the tonearm's headshell is immersed. This damping system greatly reduces the resonant frequency inherent in all tonearm/cartridge pairings, as well as absorbing and dissipating any stray vibrations and resonances in the cartridge body and tonearm. It also, very importantly, "locks" the front end of the arm to the table, just as the bearings do at the rear of the arm. Robert Greene called the original Townshend Rock Turntable a legend in TAS, and the latest version of the table (Mk.7) just went out of production, a new version promised soon. One of the best kept secrets in Hi-Fi! Is it over-damped? Or are all other tables under-damped? |
It is no secret. It is "patented". But not to everyone's like, as it has a unique character. (well... I'm bored to comment now) It would be interesting if they decide to offer it (without TT/arm) as a separate sale. And probably they could make a fortune as many of us have the will to experiment, but who knows why... |
Dear @bdp24 and friends: """
"Over-damped" implies there is an optimal amount of damping....-............... But as a mechanical transducer, why would one want the table itself to add vibrations or resonances of it's own to the tiny vibrations contained in the LP groove? """ I posted same statements several times in this and other forums but audiophiles/we are accustom to the distortions generated for those kind of micro-vibrations and when the vibrations " disappears " then we are talking of dull sound and no verve but in reality there is nothing dull or with out verve, what exist are distortions we are accustom to and things are that we like it ! ! ! ! but I ca't agree more with you. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
rikintpa Indeed imo - you can’t have a discussion on damping without also discussing absorption, and because we are discussing audio here, also, the type of room / treatments being used. a good read http://www.techniconacoustics.com/how-we-do-it/acoustics-lab/acoustics-101 damping noun technical a decrease in the amplitude of an oscillation as a result of energy being drained from the system to overcome frictional or other resistive forces. ab•sorb take in or soak up (energy, or a liquid or other substance) by chemical or physical action, |
I’m with you on this Raul. The "too controlled" sound some characterize the Rock as possessing is imo the lack of table/arm/cartridge resonances. But then I’m a London user, and it benefits more than most other cartridges from the damping! Geoch, the damping trough actually WAS offered as a separate item by Townshend years ago. It can be added to any table which has it’s platter and armboard attached to the plinth. In other words, it can be added to any non-suspended table, and even suspended designs such as the VPI HW-19. It obviously can not be used on the Linn, Acoustic Research, or any other suspended sub-chassis design where the platter and arm are separated from the plinth by springs. The little tube that is mounted on the arm’s headshell and is immersed in the trough’s damping fluid MUST move in tandem with the structure the arm and platter are mounted to. If that sounds confusing, one look at the design will explain all. And no, my separate trough is NOT for sale! |
Dear Raul, I was not even thinking about "massive turntable platters" at all. For what it's worth, I was talking about the overall structure in the most general terms. Re "lead" (the metal, Pb): I think constrained layer damping works very well based on personal experience. This would lead (the verb "to lead) one to favor a sandwich of disparate materials that do not differ to much in coefficient of energy transfer among them. Beyond this clarification, I don't want to get too involved in this discussion, much less get into an argument with you which can only lead to the accusation that I love distortion. I think or thought we both favored unsuspended vs suspended turntables. Anyway, I do. |
We all have our opinions and whatever works in our environment and circumstances -- even with the same turntable, may not work for another individual. I have a Thorens TD160 Super that I bought back in the 80's, and I have worked with it trying numerous damping and other upgrades to get the best playback. Some were, more or less, successful -- at least to my ears, and when it comes down to it, that is all that matters -- how it sounds to you. After all, you are the one who paid for it and listen to it -- not some pompous know-it-all on YouTube, who goes around being paid to tell you what you can, should, or will be hearing. Take them with a pinch of salt and as a basic guideline -- not as the holy grail. The floating panel upon which the platter's bearing and tonearm arm board are attached already is dampened already; however, the bearing is now surrounded with Sorbothane washers to help stop bearing noise, and the bearing rests upon a small Teflon disk inserted into the bottom of the bearing to help stop friction. The tonearm has an extremely micro thin layer of special material that is between the tonearm base and the arm board to stop the intense arm resonance from hitting the arm board and returning to the stylus. The arm board was custom made of aircraft grade aluminum to accommodate my Signet XK50 tonearm. The motor has had a Sorbothane band put around it to again absorb motor vibration, and there has been applied a lubricated ball-bearing to the motor to lift the motor armature and prevent premature wear (like the spindle bearing and help with any vibration of the motor. The bottom particle board that was under the table was replaced by a very thick, high-quality acrylic board with four tiptoes to help with footfalls and speaker feedback. The original particle board was covered with felt and used between the new turntable acrylic board and the wall bracket's base supported by spikes upon which the turntable rests as it sits on the heavy metal wall bracket supporting the turntable. Sorbothane was placed between the wall bracket and the wall, and also surrounds the spikes that support the bracket's base. The sub-platter as well as the main platter has felt glued to the underside to prevent the metal from ringing. An acrylic combination with Sorbothane by SOTA completes the platter's deadness and is topped with a SOTA Clamp to couple the vinyl to the SOTA mat. The tonearm wire to the phono stage was replaced with Teflon Straightwire. These changes occurred over many years -- not adding everything at one time. As I found something either added or diminished the sound, I went on from there to see what could be further improved. It also allows one to hear what each step accomplishes or does not accomplish to your ear's satisfaction. |