Which btw, thanks for that, flaxxer. You say the cutest things that only souls who think like you would understand and I’m so thankful I’m not one of them. Did it ever occur to you that folding or separating the two conductors and then running them, one atop the other, as an experiment, would suffice enough to see and hear for yourself that the concept has something in it to work with, saving yourself a sizable sum of money? Like I said earlier, Ed Shilling has been doing this for decades. All the best, Nonoise |
Take my word for it, you have not heard truly 3D holographic imaging if you are not using a cable with this geometry. I would make the generalized statement that anyone who makes a generalized statement like this is prone to hyperbole and couples that with a profound yet fundamental misunderstanding of imaging. Alas, they have a platform. |
I understand that cabling geometry would do and could do something for a better imaging like the other pieces of gear will help if they are well chosen....I dont doubt that....
But imaging is FIRST and LAST a result of acoustical controls methods....All there is,between these first and last steps, are welcome improvement but if someone want a good imaging and soundstage and more important than that a good "listener envelopment" experience with a good "source width experience" linked to it, a cable geometry, a good dac, and a very good amplifier will not be enough....At ANY price....
My experience and experiments confirm that to me.... Feel free to contradict me but i know what i speak about because i did it myself....
A TEST:
Pick Kurt Weill recording album 1958 "Three pennies opera" "Die Dreigroschenoper " with Lotte Lenya...
The recording engineer here was great and he put these mics at the different spot with art...
All along the opera, the voices are heard like in a 4 speakers system, coming in my right ears and left ears from my back, with the orchestra behind the speakers which are in front of me...My entire room is on the theater scene ....
Then i am on the theater among them....Not bad for a 500 bucks stereo system.... Try this opera with any gear and system at any price, if the room is not under control, the voices timbre will be unnatural, and you will not experience this music like if your stereo system suddenly become a 4 speakers system....
Acoustic is powerful.... Electronic is only the first step to Hi-Fi experience, i know that saying this will contradict what most people here think about audio...
Remember that i never upgraded my system for the last 3 years, and all my improvement cost me peanuts, the most important one being acoustic devices control....
I am a bit tired of cable wars, tubes/S.S. wars and digital/analog wars....
All these wars has proved to me that most people have no understanding of what really matters....
The three embeddings controls, but MAINLY the acoustical one is HUGE.....
Audio is almost equal to acoustic......
For example if the recording engineer on this Kurt Weill opera had not been a great master of acoustic, this recording would not have contained the necessary cues for my acoustic experience, and if my room have not been under controls MY EARS/BRAIN would have never been able to extract FROM MY ACTIVATED ROOM the information/cues contained in the recording files and recreate them in my room....And for this experience acoustic controls matters, never mind the price of the audio system....My 500 bucks audio system did it better than most costly one in a bad room.... Almost all rooms are, if not squarely bad, not optimal at all, unbeknownst to most....
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Which btw, thanks for that, flaxxer. You say the cutest things that only souls who think like you would understand and I’m so thankful I’m not one of them.
Seems I overlooked the fact that the handle for the OP is flaxxer, so, my bad. I'm just used to you using all manner of jargon to describe people. Everything else I said is as said. All the best, Nonoise |
Two ribbons placed together is obviously the best for SPEAKER cables. It's an immediate consequence of Maxwell's Equations. Just as two small conductors separated by a significant distance is the best for line level. That's assuming equal dielectric to take dielectric absorption out of the picture.
Doesn't require an experiment. It's immediate from the physics. |
You can think of it as (1) speakers must have low inductance and (2) line level must have low capacitance. The cables and the equipment terminations form LR and RC filters respectively. But it doesn't matter much if lengths are short. |
Josh is the real deal. Thanks for the help, flaxxer. |
nonoise, good to know you got it. Thanks for clarifying. |
Two
ribbons placed together is obviously the best for SPEAKER cables. It's
an immediate consequence of Maxwell's Equations. Just as two small
conductors separated by a significant distance is the best for line
level. That's assuming equal dielectric to take dielectric absorption
out of the picture.
Doesn't require an experiment. It's immediate from the physics. terry91,461 posts04-03-2021 10:07pmYou
can think of it as (1) speakers must have low inductance and (2) line
level must have low capacitance. The cables and the equipment
terminations form LR and RC filters respectively. But it doesn't matter
much if lengths are short.
While I don't disagree much with your conclusions about inductance and capacitance mainly due to source and load impedance, I don't see where Maxwell enters the equation, pun intended. |
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@ pesky_wabbit. I’m sorry but once again this is incorrect. The width of the conductors combined by the given gauge tell us these are as thick as a dime or penny. This is not foils. This is not similar. And people will not get a taste of foils like this at all. The reason foils work like they do is how they are as thin as a human hair, while retaining the gauge. If you made the cables you’re suggesting, you will end up with something closer to Goertz cables. |
Josh and Downsize audio is still around. He makes runs of cables every few years or so. He is just reclusive, and suffers with his health. He recently made cables for several people on the forums. Maybe one of them will give their thoughts on the subject of stacked conductor foil cables. That and almost zero insulation or skin effect is what Josh is all about. And the stupid high purity conductors. |
My experience: I have had Josh's foil speaker cables and foil interconnects in my system (see description below) for a couple of weeks. What I am hearing and enjoying: greater dynamic range, increased clarity, faster transients, bigger sense of space, and powder dry bass. I feel like I got a significant upgrade. And Josh and Cullen were easy to work with.
All of the above are improvements to my ear from my previous loom of about the same price that was also custom made, but by a different cable fabricator.
My system: English Electric 8 switch; Silent Angle switch; Network Acoustics ENO Ethernet Filter Ag & ENO Streaming Cable Ag; Allo USBridge; Border Patrol SE-i DAC; Kinki Studio EX-P7; Downsize balanced foil interconnects; EX-M7; Downsize foil speaker cables; Tekton Double Impacts. |
If a high a capacitance across speaker cables produces a better sound, why can one not simply put an appropriate value capacitor across the speaker terminals while using low capacitance cables and achieve the same high capacitance (and presumably, a better sound) ? |
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I tried Goertz foil diy cables in the past though they sound decent they lacked transparency. Probably has high amount of capacitance. You can fine tune them by using fancy dielectric but beyond the diy realm.
In the end it is not any one geometry but the harmony of all the variables. |
Can someone please explain or reconcile this flat ribbon design verses the hellix construction others espouse? Any practical AB real world comparison between actual cables, DIY or commercial, that anyone cares to share?
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I've used Goertz, River Cable(similar but thicker), MG Designs(side by side as opposed to stacked), and ZenWave (braided foil ribbon).They won't work with every amp because of the low inductance. Many amps need to see some inductance.The result is an anemic sound and/or oscillation.
The ZenWave (to my ears) is outstanding with my tube amp.With my ss amp it was anemic.The ZenWave is the very best I've heard,nothing else comes close.
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Being friends with Josh, I have been to his shop many times. He probably has 30 or more cable brands there. It is a dream for anyone wanting to compare cables of every kind. I own Downsize cables because I've heard them best $20+ speaker cables. I replaced my source's $3500 power cable with his $400 power cables. Now I have 7 of those power cables. They simply sound good. The science is above me. But my ears don't lie to me.
Josh has a policy where he simply won't tell anyone what to expect to hear with his cables. He doesn't want to plant any pre notions to lead to placebo expectations.
Also he wants to see of the feedback he gets has consistencies. He values finding out if others are hearing what he does. You notice he does not advertise or visit forums. He really enjoys helping people get better sound, but only when approached about it. He isn't egotistical, and doesn't want or need to prove anything. Ive seen him send a pair of interconnects to someone desperate to argue with him. He went silent and sent them out unpaid. He preferred it to the stress. He's disabled and spends most of his time obsessing about what improves sq. And ways to make it happen. He's doing it for him. But will share with people.
I think this leads to better sounding products. He designed them via experimenting.
I just think it's interesting any individual can compete with and beat companies with R&D depts and deep pockets.
Those of you handy should try and build similar foil cables to his and try them. The only difference at all is the conductor purity and special teflon tapes for conductor insulation. |
I thought I was going to post some photos of cool foil cables, but I see photos aren't happening here, oops! I miss a lot in my old age, lol |
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