04-10-13: Audiolabyrinth Why? Because human nature loves to watch a train wreck? The wreck happened a couple of months ago, all of the non-believers (Rok2id & Irvrobinson) have left the thread. What else is left to discuss? Just a bunch of guys standing around saying "I like cables"? LOL! Eventually ALL threads follow nature's course and go to their natural demise, just like humans and horses. :) |
I agree with waxwaves! ,,Cables are magic!, and I agree with Bo1972,cables make a system come to life! @ joeylawn36111,, Hi, there is no way I will spend very little on cables!, cables to me are the most important part of a system!,,, cables can either make your system or break your system! Happy listening! |
a kia and a porsche do the same thing..drive you from point A to point B...is the experience different...HELL YES. the better the systen the easier it is to hear differences in cable additions / subtractions.a Timex and a Rolex ARE different. yes ..both tell time but the Rolex is a piece of jewelry. |
04-10-13: IsochronismYou're missing the point, expensive watches are accessories similar to a necklace, bracelet, designer clothing ... some call it style. A bad analogy with cable. |
"Does a $5,000 dollar watch tell time any better than a 30 dollar watch?" The simple answer is no. Actually the $30 watch will be + or - about 15 seconds per month where a mechanical (a real watch) will be + or - app. 10 seconds per day, depending upon variables. Would you notice this difference without testing on a watch timer? (Witschi) No. I grew up in the Antique business and was a Watchmaker for many years. I have only vintage watches. I choose a watch for the day, give it some winds and set it. Am I synchronized with GMT standard? Not unless I happened to get very lucky. Is it important to me? no. Will the Rolex keep better time with the installation of a Diamond Bezel? Again, obviously no. Now the $30 dollar cable could possibly sound better than the $5,000 dollar cable in a particular given system. Now, would a diamond encrusted cable sound better...... ? |
I'm not reluctant to admit I have 3 expensive watches. My lifestyle has changed so don't wear them and are locked up in a safe deposit box. What's interesting is it has appreciated over the years especially the one with 18K gold. Sure wish I can say the same for my audio stuff. I think there are 2 audio dealers on Agon that accept watches and cameras as trade for audio components. Maybe one of these days I'll trade them in for something VERY nice :-) |
03-27-13: BryoncunninghamIt's a personal decision and we all have our vices. |
03-26-13: AlmargI am somewhat reluctant to admit that I once owned a $5000 watch from a very well regarded manufacturer. It was an automatic watch, which is to say, its mainspring was wound automatically by the motion of the wearer's arm. It kept time approximately as accurately as the clock on my dog's automatic feeder. Which is to say, it sucked. Bryon |
03-23-13: WaxwavesIf, as you and I and most of the rest of us agree, cable performance is system dependent, and if, as many of us agree, cable effects cannot be fully explained or predicted by generally recognized science, and if we truly want to keep an open mind, it would seem logical that equal opportunity and equal focus should be given to ALL price points, from the top of our individual affordability range on down. For example, the fact that Mogami proved to be nothing special in your system says little or nothing about the results it would provide in other systems. And I can recall more than a few posts in past threads here and elsewhere in which people have expressed surprise about how good the results were after they changed their high priced cabling to vastly less expensive Mogami. Not in every reported case in which that has been tried, but in many and probably most of them. Earlier in this thread, in my posts dated 3-8-13, 2-23-13, and 2-18-13, I cited several reasons why a high degree of correlation between cable performance and cable price, which is implicit in the opinion expressed in your post, should not be expected. IMO. Regards, -- Al |
Some things seem so obvious and based on truth. It seems impossible not to all agree on them. - cables are system dependent in terms of sounding better - cables are human ear sets dependent in terms of hearing a difference - cables do sound different and better in some/many systems and to some/many ears - humans did not evolve from nothing or dirt Oh we'll, let's continue to debate this based on our individual set of experiences which of coarse sets the lens or filter from which many here debate. Please understand however that your experience is but one conclusion or experience in the greater realm of truth mentioned above. |
I've heard the Mogami, they are just ok...nothing special. I enjoyed Analysis Plus Oval One just as much or more in my system. Audiolabyrinth is correct, the audiophiles need better cable. He's probably correct about why too. But what it boils down to for me is that once I had heard what some of the better quality cable do for an audio system, there was no going back to $100 "studio standard" ic cable. Also, I have to agree with Zd542 that yes, cables are system dependent. So...if you want to know what cables can do for your system, simply try different cables at the top of your price range and then trust your ears. Most will find cabling with a sonic signature that is pleasing that presents the music the way they like it to be and for reasonable cost. I don't know what the big deal is? If God forbid you do not find any "high dollar" cable that you like, you can resell it easily in the used market! This thread brings to mind a quote from author Robert M. Pirsig "Quality is a direct experience independent of and prior to intellectual abstractions". Robert M. Pirsig So maybe just use an open mind, several hundred bucks or more, and hours of QUALITY listening time to select your favorite cables! If all else fails...ask Audiolabyrinth and he will tell you what you should get! hehe Oh yeah, one more Pirsig quote for the cable haters: ~ "The absence of quality is the essence of squareness!" |
Jmyc, "I've never had a client "hear the cables" and that's because relatively inexpensive Mogami cable is completely neutral to the human ear." How do you know that? What makes the Mogami cables completely neutral compared to other cables? I find that cables tend to be system dependant. Maybe, in a different system, another brand might more neutral than the Mogami. Or am I not reading your post correctly. |
Discussions about it so much fun!!! I love it. Give me more, for me it is enough. I like to read about other people there opinion. If we would all have the same idea's, it would not be that fun anymore. For long time the Valhalla loudspeakercable was the fastest cable for money. But 2 weeks ago I had by far the shortest and quickest low freq. respons I heard so far at my tests. It was with the Audioquest Redwood. I will write a review in about 4 weeks about this cable. Wenn you use this cable you understand the meaning of black better than ever before. Mmmmmmmmm...cables |
I would commend to everyone's attention a highly informative post by Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere in this thread, that is relevant to what is being discussed here. Interconnect cable differences could be completely eliminated if components were designed in accordance with low impedance balanced line principles which date back to the early days of hifi. Unfortunately, components usually are not designed in that manner. Ralph provides what IMO is persuasive proof of that contention. Regards, -- Al |
@ frogman,Well said my friend!,now @ jymc,I am a proffessional musician!,lets get that out of the way!,I will explain this situation like you have never heard before,yes studios use the likes of mogami cables,and they sound good!,here is the problem musicians and studios do not realize!,and what I am about to say needs to be spread all over audiogon!,and who said it!,now,since the source is as real as it gets,the origination of the music that is recorded,the mogami cables is all that is required,by the time the music at hand is recorded and put on a record or cd,it loses the integrity!,the music in no way sounds the way the muscians sounded live!,that being said,we,the audiophiles have to make up for this loss in the recording,this is why it is required that we have a much better quality cables than what is used in the studio!cheers! |
Frogman - some of the top studios in the world have cheap Yamaha NS10s in their arsenal of equipment. There is a good reason for this, and it's not about creating a believable mix or master......it is about complying with radio expectations, sales to the ear-bud crowd, etc....the joke is that if you can get it to sound good on NS10s, it'll sound OK on your car radio or I-pod. My point above was that you might have 8-10 cables between the components in a studio signal chain. The components themselves can easily cost $100k plus. We don't spend that kinda dough on hardware gear if we can't perceive a benefit. Those specific 8-10 components I noted are most often connected with high quality Mogami cables they cost roughly $3000 - $5000. Do you not believe 99.9% of the TOP studios would gladly spend 5-10 times that amount on cables if they made the difference that you are suggesting. The theoretical science behind cables is interesting, and the cable industry has exploited this information. But again, how much of a difference does it make in a studio set-up. The studio biz is competitive and I will purchase every "edge" I can to beat my competitor. A tube condenser mic or vintage compressor or Pultec EQ or great monitors will often make obvious audible differences. I've never had a client "hear the cables" and that's because relatively inexpensive Mogami cable is completely neutral to the human ear. (MASTERING is a whole different topic where commercial requirements/expectations must be met to promote sales - hence equipment tweaks are used to boost and cut, etc etc.) |
again, with all due respect, I challenge you to tell me what "electronic instruments" are SUPPOSED to sound like. Let's say you're a rock fan.....there has never been a stadium rock concert where imaging is considered. Stereo sources become part of a main mono mix. And do you really strive to have your home system sound like a stadium rock concert? Conversely, consider an acoustic instrument concert in a small venue. If no mic-ing is used and you're in the sweet spot, only then do all the variables audiophiles discuss come into play. I spent my life in this business. I'll say again, while studios may experiment with different cable tweaks, virtually NO studio (not even the top studios) wires the entire studio with Nordost Valhalla.....its simply not necessary while it might even color the original source. Those who disagree would be better to argue that they're ATTEMPTING TO SCUPLT A DIFFERENT AUDIO EFFECT ON THEIR HOME SYSTEMS, OR AT THE VERY LEAST, A SOUND THAT MATCHES THEIR LISTENING PREFERENCE. I too have previously spent a lot of dough on home audio cables. And it's hard to feel good about spending $10k on speaker cables if they don't sound DIFFERENT. If you like DIFFERENT then go for it. DIFFERENT is not always better. But DIFFERENT could be what your individual taste requires and that's OK. |
again, with all due respect, I challenge you to tell me what "electronic instruments" are SUPPOSED to sound like. Let's say you're a rock fan.....there has never been a stadium rock concert where imaging is considered. Stereo sources become part of a main mono mix. And do you really strive to have your home system sound like a stadium rock concert? Conversely, consider an acoustic instrument concert in a small venue. If no mic-ing is used and you're in the sweet spot, only then do all the variables audiophiles discuss come into play. I spent my life in this business. I'll say again, while studios may experiment with different cable tweaks, virtually NO studio (not even the top studios) wires the entire studio with Nordost Valhalla.....its simply not necessary while it might even color the original source. Those who disagree would be better to argue that they're ATTEMPTING TO SCUPLT A DIFFERENT AUDIO EFFECT ON THEIR HOME SYSTEMS, OR AT THE VERY LEAST, A SOUND THAT MATCHES THEIR LISTENING PREFERENCE. I too have previously spent a lot of dough on home audio cables. And it's hard to feel good about spending $10k on speaker cables if they don't sound DIFFERENT. If you like DIFFERENT then go for it. DIFFERENT is not always better. But DIFFERENT could be what your individual taste requires and that's OK. |
You have to keep it as easy as possible. Spending a lot of money on cables give you not the insurrance of more quality in your system. But these days there are cables lmost who add new qualities in the overwhole sound. These qualities are convincing for almost all people. Like a wider and deeper stage. This is very easy to understand. Or more air and resolution. Some cables give a much better articulation of voices. So I do many a-b comparrison for clients to make it understandable. I never say: you have to buy this. I give them a demo to listen. They can make there own judgement. It is everyone's own choice. It is clear that differences in cables are big. Different does not mean better. But there are many parts were you can judge music and quality in sound for. Last few months I explain my clinets the difference between 2-dimensional and 3-dimensional sound. Every one understands it quite easy. Witht there own music it makes them more easy to understand. I test a lot of stuff. Any yesss there is a lot more stuff which is not that convincing. But it does not mean every cable is the same! |
