Sabai, I don't hear any real impact of cables touching but great impact from them being on both my hardwood floors or on carpeting. As I said the greatest benefit I get is on glazed ceramics, notably the Rightway Audio insulators. I have a dozen of them. I also have four 18k volt isolators with the Rightways mounted on top of them. By themselves the big ones don't sound good, but they weigh a lot and are quite tall.
Mrtennis, as I said before, with ceramic standoffs, I hear greater clarity, dynamics, and accuracy. It is not subtle. |
what is the consequence of leaving the cables on the floor ?
i use boulder's foam elevators. i'm not sure they are made anymore. i don't experience a loss in dynamics. |
Tbg,
I have so many cables that it is impossible to prevent them from touching. I do my best. Getting them off the static tile floor was the biggest challenge. The next challenge is to get them off one another. |
Stevecham, given how thin chopsticks are, this is probably good. |
Three bamboo chopsticks held together as tripod with a rubber band about any inch and a half from top forms a nice perch for cables and works wonderfully. I use this method on my speaker cables and can tell the difference between that and on the floor. |
I find soft objects dampen dynamics and remove the decay of the signal. Most hard objects, including glass and metals, lack the sharp edge of impact and brass. I think the glaze on insulator makes a difference. Also a single insulator is superior to multiple insulators.
I have demonstrated this to others, including in rooms at shows, but as always these are personal preferences, YMMV. |
i use foam under interconnects, power cords, and speaker cables. hard objects harden the sound. |
Sabai, I understand your problem with too many wires. I also have a problem with stiff power cords. Basically, I will only use the now discontinues Rightway Audio ceramic insulators. Typically, I put one pc in the notch in the insulator and others at right angles across it. This allows me to keep all wires off the floor and to not interfere with each other.
Most of my ics are in free air from one connection to the other, although I know they sound best with one isolator per set of cables, it is difficult to do. Speaker cables, however, are supported by a single isolator often high off the floor.
Were I still a potterer I would make a tall piece with multiple branches sticking off each direction and a broad base with a clear and hard glaze. This would allow one to support many cables |
I have so many wires in my system that I needed to come up with something novel to get them off the floor. I use a 3-shelf wicker book stand and I snake the wires through and around the wicker. This works very well for me. |
Cable elevators by precision products are exceptionally well made.myself and several other friends have them and compared to all but possibly the Shunyata are the best available and at one third the price music direct has these for $120 for 8 of them with free shipping.
These are very substantially built porcelain with NO conductive coating
What so ever. Sonicly the noise floor is lower inner detail is more pronounced as well as cleaner sounding .Very good value for the
Improvement gained. |
Splaskin, I bought the Waipuna Audio Mrytle wood risers. He advertises here on a-gon. They work very well and look awesome. Jeff does a beutiful job and very nice to deal with. I also picked up a set of his Myrtle wood footers. WOW! Wonderful on my HT receiver. I may order more... Thanks! |
The plastic seemed a little bright; the wood more relaxed but with the open high end and detail the plastic gave me. |
Hi Splaskin, What were the differences you noticed between the plastic and wood? I'm still deciding which to get. Thanks, Joe |
FWIW, I constructed a set of cable risers that are cheap versions of the RSAD risers Robert mentions above. I had some frustrating moments but they work great and look nice.
I noted that my system sounded "cleaner" across the audio spectrum with a little better imaging to boot.
The acrylic risers look sexy, but I've noticed acrylic seems to conduct static electricity, so I'd be concerned about using them on carpet. I'm not sure why I've had so many static issues with acrylic considering it's a plastic, but I have. |
The DFE are not the best choice with Synergistic Research Apex speaker cables, but can be very effective with other brands. I finally found that the Waipuna Sound solid risers were the best sounding elevators for my Apex cables. |
hi tbg:
i applaud your ecumenical attitude. one's own experiences are more significant when making a purchasing something.
there are so many variables involved in subjective judgments, that they are usually unreliable.
conflicting opinions , especially where contradictions are present are almost impossible to resolve by a third party. |
Tbg,
I live in a very dry environment with very high levels of static electricity. Perhaps getting the SC's off the carpet makes the difference. I do not know if those who thought the DFE's hurt the sound had them under more than the SC's. Any of the aforementioned reasons could account for the difference of opinion. I do know that I was biased against them, and the dealer had not even seen them before. I also mentioned to him that some of the posters on this thread thought the DFE's harmed the sound, so he may also have been biased against them. It was just so plainly evident that the DFE's made a very positive difference on my system. So, it could be system differences. I having been an audiophile for over 40 years have seen many things which were unexplainable. Just trust your own ears.
Bob |
Rdoc, what do you make of these differences of opinion? Is it possible that you are both right? This happens so often, that I think everyone should have reservations about others' opinions on components. |
Because of this thread, I decided to try my system without the Shunyata Dark Field Elevators which are only under my speaker cables. If my findings are the same as Dave b and some others, I could sell them and recover some money. I had a dealer here doing a "Master Set" on my speakers. He had never seen the DFE's before and is not a Shunyata dealer. When we put the DFE's in the system, the music took on more bloom and the soundstage widened and deepened. There was an increase in detail. My system (which is quite high in resolution IMHO)was clearly more musically satisfying and involving. There was absolutely no dulling or loss of detail. Both of us thought it was very easy to hear the improvement with the DFE's under the SC's. In my system it is one of the very best returns on investments. It seems that this is the very opposite of what Dave b and some others have heard. I have only one other Shunyata piece, that being a Python VX on my CD player. I am certainly not disposed toward Shunyata products. So, this only means as most other high end products go, be sure to try it in your system before you decide. Regards,
Bob V |
Dave_b, yep, try ceramics, but use one and only one per all cables. |
Update...after further listening I have decided against using the elevators. For whatever good they appear to do for my system, there seems to be a shift in tone, defintion and dynamic contrast that becomes apparent upon lengthy listening sessions. Things seem less exciting and less colorful somehow:O( Oh well! |
The clmate here is very dry where I live. Low humidity is the norm. |
I would think this is more of an issue when it is dry and static is high than when the humidity is 40% above and only when in contact with a rug. |
Today I replaced the CD cases with wood blocks. The wood sounded even better. The choice of riser will depend on your system and taste. I hope the myrtle wood risers I ordered come soon. |
Clio09, can you not use the cheap little cd boxes rather than jewel boxes? I don't like plastic risers but do wonder whether the type of plastic matters. |
Something else positive I noticed was that the CD case risers create a bit of a tube like effect, in that individual notes are opened up more. Instrument sounds more rounded and dimensional while still retaining enough incisiveness to give a sense of believablility. This aspect of the CD elevation effect reminds me of the sound I had with my old Watt/Puppy 6's and an ARC VT100MKIII with an LS 25MKII preamp. Quite surprising:O) |
Okay, if the CD cases work, the expense aside, would it stand to reason something like this would be a good option as well: http://www.cabletower.com/ |
The CD cases do work! In fact, based on initial listening they offer the good improvements of the Dark Fields without the drawbacks i.e...blunting of transients, opacity and reduced dynamics. Instrument seperation is improved, definition is enhanced, the soundstage expanded and harmonics seem a little more natural. |
Joeyboynj,
Splashkin's suggestion will work just fine. You may also want to simply lay your CD cases on their sides making the letter "V" (non tee pee, stable, and uniform height). Now simply lay your cables with at least 4 CD cases per 8ft run being careful not to let your speaker cables sag between CD cases while allowing them to orient themselves in such a way as to not force them into a position they do not naturally lie.
Yours in music,
Ted Denney III
Lead Designer, Synergistic Research Inc. |
Set the CD case as a t-pee and rest the cable on top. I ordered some Walpuna Sound wood risers to try. |
OK, how do I set up these CD cases? In a t-pee position with cables on top balancing off the floor a few inches? OR am I placing the cables in the fold as if the case was open on the floor ready to put a CD back into it for storage. Anyone have a picture they can send me of how this looks? ...THANKS! Joe |
CD cases are better..at least no blunting of transients or opaque artifacts. |
Today I replaced the 3 Shunyata Dark Field elevators with 2 CD cases under my speaker cables as suggested by Ted. I am using Tesla Apex cables.
All I can say is WOW!! The CD cases were much better sounding. The Dark Field elevators are dark sounding with a closed in high end and muted high end transients.
Ted, you never cease to amaze me!
Steve |
There is no need to repeat info already in plain view on our site, nor is this the proper forum for manufacturer tech, marketing or sales info. For those with any real interest, we're easy to reach and reference. The products and tech are all well enough explained and any lingering questions can be easily addressed with an e-mail or phone call.
|
Samuel, I suspect that most any manufacturer could or would claim that their cable risers were developed "from sound theory." I guess sound here has two meanings-well based and sounding good. I assume you mean the former. If so, what is that theory?
About five years ago, I made or bought some 25 different types of risers. I folded cardboard into triangular shape with notches for the cables. I had chopsticks with twistems around their centers. I had glass blocks and glass isolators found behind at power substation as well as ceramic ones also found there. I had ceramic tiles with two angled together and held into position on a wooden base. I made sting supporter and monofilm supporters with wood supports. I made risers out of maple, walnut, pine, oak, and even some with ebony tops. I tried china cups, earthenware bowls, stemmed glasses. I got tall risers made of the material that chips are or were shipped in. I bought ceramic entirely dark brown Suspenders from Rightway Audio shaped like electrical isolators and from a surplus isolator site in Iowa defective 18K volt 15" tall isolators with lead bases. I don't think I tried jewel boxes, but I did have plastic cups and paper cups. I use one gallon milk bottles with their top cut off. I am probably forgetting some of my attempts. All of these were, of course, without any "sound theory," just shots in the dark.
Everyone of these help over having the cables on the ground, but one stood out, the Rightway Audio Suspenders. I think they are out of business now and I have never tried the present company making such ceramic isolators product.
I must say that I bought Combac speaker wire wooden supports at a later date, which were nice under my speaker wires,but they had to be on top my Suspenders. I do not see these feet on the Combac page now.
I will just turn further experimentation over to younger audiophiles and enjoy my Suspenders. |
Just a note to address the "junk" and "falling apart" comments.
We have received some original sets of the DFE's back that had an issue with humidity weakening the type of adhesive used. The issue was immediately addressed and there have been no further incidents. Anyone that still has a set with the adhesive problem is welcome to return those to their dealer for a replacement set, or perhaps a credit depending on the dealer policies. This was a simple error in an original production run. We stand behind the issue and have corrected it.
As to the performance comments, these will be taken into context with all the response and comments received from dealers and customers. The DFE's were developed from sound theory and tested using mainly open braid and non shielded cable systems. Though they have worked extremely well in many different systems since coming to market, no product of this type will likely ever be universal in result given how many different systems, environments and cable designs are out there in every conceivable context. The best advice is always to evaluate and base a purchase on the outcome.
Regards,
Grant
Shunyata Research |
I'm going to check out the Acoustic Revive stuff...very interesting. |
Hey Guys. We sell THESE but they're not too difficult to build if you've got the tools and a Saturday afternoon. I still say this is the best approach yeilding the best sonics and there's reason for it - but if I told you I'd have to kill you ;) At one point we tried applying ERS cloth as the carrier but while it changed the sound more dramatically, it wasn't in a positive direction. Try it yourself and see what you think. Have fun! Robert RSAD |
Given all the talk about them, I decided to pull them out of my system and what do you know, they were dulling transients, obscuring low level detail and detrimental to articulation not to mention that the build quality is quite questionable as one of them is already falling apart. Needless to say they aren't going near my system again. Looks like it's time to go back to the Acoustic Revive well. |
I have to agree with dave b on the dark fields.
Not only did these things sound bad but they fell apart after 1 month. Can you spell junk!!!!
Stay with Wood or Acrylic, much better effect on the the over all sound. |
Re-checked the Dark Fields in my system and found an immediate dulling of the sound and a blunting of leading edge transients. Not good! The product is a failure as far as I am concerned. |
I just found these. Signal Cable makes Acrylic Cable Risers as well and they are cheaper than the Quadraspire QX50. Check them out. |
Joeyboynj, I really like them. The Mythologies are pretty solid to hold the heavy S.R Tesla power cords & they blend well with todays interior designs and furniture. Soundwise when I incorporated them in my system I had installed 2 Teslaplexes so I can to an extent comment where the differences in sound quality came from(LOL). I do notice a little more clarity, definition, & astonishingly silent backrounds. The Teslaplexes did there own enhancing. Maybe as time goes on I will notice more. I defenitly have not had any negative affects towards the sound after the Mythologies where put in my system. I actually have 8 total with 2 for sub cords. I have't even put them under any of my speaker wires, I will later add more just to let the Teslaplexes settle so I can tell a difference after to justify any positive affects. I will then report back.
REGARDS Bacardi |
"WOW-those are sexy cable risers!" Perhaps you need to get out more? |
PS. I have also had good luck with risers made from hard wood and MDF.
Yours in music,
Ted Denney III
Lead Designer, Synergistic Research III |
Joeyboynj,
I totally agree about the aesthetics. The suggestion to try CD cases is only for proof of concept for people who doubt that cable risers can make a difference- it costs nothing and also serves as a means to try a polycarbonate cable riser against other materials. Different materials have different signatures and this can serve to fine tune the balance of a well set up system.
Karelfd,
WOW- those are sexy cable risers! I'll get a set for my home system as I'm looking for cable risers that compliment the modern decor of my home- thanks!
Yours in music,
Ted Denney III
Lead Designer, Synergistic Research Inc. |
Hi guys, thanks for reviving this thread, most interesting findings being reported here. Over the months, I had settled for acrylic Quadraspire QX50 as support, maybe that could be the "nicer" alternative to cd jewel cases that Joeyboynj is looking for? Here is the description of their product: http://www.quadraspire.co.uk/product_range/qx/page1/index.htmlTed, could you add any thoughts on this please? (Presuming, it is not considered to be a no-go to comment on a competitor's product; if it is then I appologize) |
Ted, I want to use something that looks a little nicer than CD cases. I also see that you recommended in another forum/thread you recommend wood blocks at least 4 inches from the ground. Is there a specific kind/brand of wook block to use?? What are your comments on the Hifi Pyon Mythologies that Bacardi is using? Does this seem to fit your requirements. If you search here on "Pyon" you can see the seller here on A-gon.
Bacardi, How are you liking the Hifi Pyon Mythologies??? Have you noticed any negatives like Dave_b did with the Dark Fields?
I'm going to take the Dark Fields out tonight and report back in a few days...
Thanks everyone for all your input! |
I may do that. Several years ago Jonathan Valin did a review of the ceramic cable elevators and concluded that there was no free lunch. He found that the body and weight of instruments were reduced, thus affecting their apparent palpability and solidity. As a designer, I would be careful as to how much of the "Music" is often discarded in an attempt to address other supposedly more important aspects of the reproduction of sound. Lack of distortion, a lower noise floor, blacker backgrounds, smoother highs and enhanced transparency, to cite a few examples, are worthy goals indeed. The problem arises when the pursuit of ideals overshadows our emotional connection with the music. A presentation that has all of the hallmarks of "Audiophile Sound" but none of the connective tissue that conveys a sense of drama, emotion and realistic scale, is worthless. Live music is clear, dynamic as hell, full of contrast and color. Without these crucial ingredients in good measure, the listener may as well be a robot...or worse, a reviewer! |
Dave,
It would be interesting if you could compare and report back on the Dark Fields to simple CD cases used cable elevators as outlined here:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1215950921&openflup&23&4#23
Yours in music,
Ted Denney III
Lead Designer, Synergistic Research Inc. |
