I'm not familiar with the Triangles, so I am only commenting on what could be happening. Unless you listen at volume levels that can cause amp clipping, you should not be saturating cores... First, do you know that the cores are iron for sure or another material? The Madisound rep was incorrect. When a core saturates, the inductance changes, thus the frequency of the driver that it is in series with will also change, the top end can fade away. This will most likely be a mid or woofer, a tweeter would not use a inductor in series. Overall, most good cored inductors are rated to handle 300 plus watts before saturating. Even though possible, it is not likely that is the issue. As far as some sort of switch.... I have use a type of thermistor as well as low voltage bulbs that will bleed off excessive current during amplifier clipping. I've not seen anyone else do this. It isn't rocket science, I've just not seen it used out there, they do hurt the sound quality of the driver that they are on. I had to stop a kid from blowing stuff up. As far as your own build. I would recommend some pro parts or at least something with some high sensitivity so that you won't necessarily drive your amp so hard. Good luck. I hope this helps in some way. Tim
Build or buy, speaker options
I have a pair of Triangle Volante 260 speakers which I love dearly most of the time. The times that don’t love them dearly are the Fridays when I get home from work and want to shed the stress of the week with a little high energy wall of sound type tunes. As mentioned before in this forum, the midrange and high end quickly fade out after a short while at high volume, then fade back in when I turn the volume down. Georgehifi posited that it could be iron core inductors in the crossovers getting saturated, and that sounded feasible. But, in an email conversation with Madisound, their tech indicated that he’d never experienced such a behavior, and that saturated inductors were more likely to exhibit distortion. The tech ask for some photos of the crossover, but I wasn’t able to get a clear shot of one of them, and trying to remove one from the cabinet proved much more involved than I thought it would. No good photos, but I did see iron core inductors, for sure. The Madisound tech thought “Maybe they are using poly switches that close when the power is too high, putting the speakers through a resistor”. This is something I’ve never heard of, so I’m totally unfamiliar with poly switches or what they might look like. It’s looking like I may not be able to solve this problem.
The options I’m considering are selling the Triangles, and purchasing used market speakers, or building my dream speakers.
If purchasing used, the qualities I like in a speaker are: detail, frequency balanced but leaning slightly toward warmth, tight punchy bass with authority, and higher frequencies that are truthful and never screeching. They would also need to handle a fair amount of SPL without strain. Amplifiers are Parasound JC 1’s.
If making my own, I’d be shooting for the same qualities. With that in mind, I’m considering a sealed cabinet design for two 8” woofers. Separate cabinets for midrange and tweeters, also sealed. I think I’ve decided on the drivers for the bass cabinets, the Morel CAW938 9" Woofer, which is an excellent driver for sealed design. The midrange, I’m considering either one or two drivers per cabinet, the reason for two would be power handling, although I’m also thinking that this may be overkill, and that one driver per, with good power handling may be the ticket. Manufacturers I’m considering for midrange are Morel, Seas, and ScanSpeak. Tweeters are yet another big question, but the more I research the topic, the more I lean toward soft domes, same manufacturers as the midrange.
Crossovers are yet another War and Peace length set of considerations, but I am thinking about active crossover between the bass cabinets and the mid/tweeter cabinets, a passive crossover between the mids/tweeters. Amps for the bass cabinets would be newly acquired D class, possibly in the 500 wpc range. I’d use the JC’s for the mid/tweeters cabinets.
I’d be interested in any advice, comments, experiences of others, as long as they aren’t overtly rude. Budget for either purchased or built would be in the $4000-$6000 range.
And, I’ve been following with interest a thread on this forum regarding the merits/drawbacks of sealed and ported systems. Some interesting observations and opinions.
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Thanks for the input, Tim. I’m not certain that the inductor cores are iron, that was my assumption as I’m not familiar with other core material possibilities. They are for sure, cored inductors. Possibly laminated steel? As for clipping, the amps are not getting to that point, at least audibly. There’s really no hint of distortion at the volume level at which this phenomenon occurs. I know clipping when I hear it, as I was once a teenager with a series of cheap receivers. I don’t think it’s the amps, and the phenomenon is affecting the midrange. If it is the inductors saturating, how would I go about finding the offending inductors values if I wanted to replace them with air cores? Will air cores be less prone to saturation? If I can modify the crossovers to solve this problem, it would by far be the most cost effective option. Much thanks, Dave |
If you are at all considering DIY, I'd highly recommend watching the series of Youtube videos that Danny Ritchie from GR Research has put together. Tons of great information on what makes a good speaker and a lot of useful practical information about building them. I'd start with the Tuesday Tech Talks, but the other videos are also very useful. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLv9fK2dmpIVbmaTh4yUJzMqNM3ttUoAJg |
Thats so strange, that issue you are having... based on the look of those triangles I would expect them to rock out. I would contact triangle and ask them... As for Diy, Morel, Scan Speak, and Seas are all awesome. I’ve recently become a big fan of the paper Scan Speak Revelators. They have awesome tone and you can crank the s..t out of them with no fatigue on either the drivers or your ears. They really invite you to turn it up |
Lots of things can be DIY, but only a very few DIY can be done as cost-effectively as buying. Equipment racks and stands, because the best ones are massive you have an edge in cost over shipping. Acoustic panels, the raw materials are so dirt cheap you have an edge in being able to experiment in your own room with your own ears. That’s about it. Everything else is so much more technical than you ever imagined, and the professionals making the stuff so light years far beyond your understanding let alone abilities, its not even close. That’s not to say there’s not a lot of room for tweaks and mods. But tweaks and mods are totally different than DIY. Beware DIYers with designs telling you how easy it is to do better than professionals. Ask them this simple question: if your DIY (fill in the blank) really is as good or better than (fill in the blank) and for less money, then why aren’t you selling it to make a profit? The answer is they don’t. Because they can’t. Because it isn’t. |
Millercarbon, “Ask them this simple question: if your DIY (fill in the blank) really is as good or better than (fill in the blank) and for less money, then why aren’t you selling it to make a profit?“ One reason is that making one pair of speakers is a very different animal than making hundreds or thousands of them. And the need for a profit margin will most likely mean that the price point will get on par with the big manufacturers product. Certainly, the big manufacturers make their product for less than they sell it for. With the investment of lots of research and lots of time and sweat, an experienced DIYer can make speakers to rival some of the big manufacturers products. The high quality parts are readily available, and as profit isn’t the goal, the cash investment can ensure high quality instead of profit margin. As for technical know how? Agreed, I’ll never be designing and building any other part of my stereo system. But speakers are a bit more like chess, deceptively simple, but a lifetime off study and experience. And yet, accessible, thanks to the many professionals and others who have offered their expertise in books, articles, periodicals, online resources, etc. Only Von Schweikert can make Von Schweikert speakers, even though many of the parts are readily available. But if someone has invested many years in the hobby of speakers building, quite possibly out of the joy of learning and doing, they can make a speaker that is just as satisfying, and enjoy the benefits of the experience of doing it. And they won’t be limited to Henry Ford’s color choices. b_limo, They do rock out, but only up to a point, and there lies the rub! The ScanSpeak Revelator line has some of my potential choices for midrange and tweeter. Even if they don’t get used in this potential project, I suspect they will show up in another. Morel And Seas are showing some stiff competition in those areas. Thanks for all comments, Dave |
Buying used completely offsets the things you mentioned. I‘Ve extensively researched diy speakers vs production speakers and at the entry level prices I was looking at, even new speakers are a better choice in my oppinion. The required woodwork to build a big floorstanding speaker, bracing the cabinet, painting it or veneering... this alone would turn me off to the project. If woodwork is your hobby and something you enjoy doing, its a totally different story. Not to be a jerk here but if you are having a hard time just gaining access to the crossover in your triangles, well... Also, if you e-mail Triangle and explain your issues they may have an answer! They may e-mail crossover schematics too. It would appear that you’ve made up your mind with trying a diy project. Is this your first time building speakers? You’re willing to drop $4,000-$6,000?? What do you think the resale would be if you don’t like them? How much time do you think it would take to build them? There’s are all questions I had to ask myself when considering diy. |
Thanks b_limo, but the getting the crossover out was more a matter of the time I had to invest in the moment. I can get it out, and possibly will this weekend. This wouldn’t be my first rodeo with building floorstanders, and I do enjoy woodworking. A big part of my job is building cantankerous entities out of a variety of materials, so considering and executing the construction approaches are part of the fun. I haven’t definitely decided to build, there are some products on the used market that may fill the bill. But one thing I’m looking for is a sealed design, which aren’t all that common. This alone tips me toward building. And, as Magico’s are outside my budget, and the fact they haven’t tickled my fancy sound-wise, well... that’s one of the reasons I’m looking for suggestions on the used market. I’d like to know about more sealed designs out there. I have to disagree about building versus entry level though. With a budget of say $600, even a first time builder who’s willing to put in some research, time and effort, can wax most any commercially available product at the same price point. It’s moving up the food chain where diminishing returns may enter the equation. Here’s what I’ve learned: there’s no substitute for quality parts. It may be that you need to drop $1500 for four of the eight drivers you need, and yet another $1000 for the others. Also, an excellently designed crossover with poor quality parts is a poor crossover. Period. It’s in this area that manufacturers pull their punches. |
This is the place to start.https://www.diyaudio.com/ |
I’m not acquainted with your speakers. Seas and Morel, drivers I’ve used both. I’m not a commercial speaker builder. I’ve built close to 130 pairs over 45 years or so. There is nothing that gives me greater pleasure, than to hear a 3 year project come to fruition. DIY, nothing like it. I’m a mechanic, that’s what I do.. It can be overwhelming, depending on the project. I like kits too. I’ve done a couple GRs great stuff... If a person has the inclination, the GUTS (it takes a bit), and willingness to admit, "I could have done that different, or not at ALL" . Be willing to start all over to get it right. The dividends are beyond what money can buy... And if it’s there big enough.... you can always be buried in them. Proof, YOU CAN TAKE IT WITH YOU or at least some. yuk yuk yuk... Regards |
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dprincipato Sorry, I just came back to this thread after a couple of days. Most good designers use air when at all possible. Occasionally, a core is a must because of DCR. A Steel laminated core will not saturate as fast as iron ferrite. The problem is if you measure DCR on an air core of any value, you might have 2 to 4 ohms, when you measure DCR on a good Steel Laminate core, it is more like .2 ohms.... when you replace the coil and add the extra resistance, it is very likely that you would reek a bit of havoc with your crossover. I have a few of the best steel laminated core coils that I have ever seen, they measure about 2.1mh and are a .13 DCR, they are a 14gauge magnet wire..... If you can get a measurement of your current coil, I could send you a couple of these to replace. If you are not experienced in crossover work, I recommend leaving it alone. What part of the country are you in? |
I have owned Acoustat 2+2 electrostatics, Maggies, three way Dynaudio d'Appolito towers among other store bought speakers while at the same time I have been designing and building DIY speakers for the last forty-seven years. My first DIY project was a sonic disaster, but I enjoyed the process so much I kept at it. Before the internet I studied every book on speaker design and construction I could find, ordered reprints of AES papers, etc. Needless to say with the internet information on the subject is available from a near endless variety of sources. In 2004 I started sawing wood, machining brass and bronze, buying components, etc. to build my present triamplified fully horn loaded DSP controlled speakers. I finally finished them up in their present very satisfying form in 2017. Along the way I changed two pair of the drivers, the DSP unit, the bass horns and other components. If at first you don't succeed ................ Also there was a huge amount of labor involved. I didn't build DIY speakers to save money, but instead to have speakers that sounded and looked as I wanted them to. I have come gratifyingly close to that ideal. Also very gratifying is the fact that audiophile fiends who have heard them use superlatives to describe the sound. If anyone is interested a description and photo of the speakers may be found at:https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/65061-range-speaker-photo-gallery-408.htmlScroll down the page to the post by Don Reid (me). |
. Georgehifi posited that it could be iron core inductors in the crossovers getting saturated, Iron core get saturated very quickly, like, immediately, and the measurements I've seen show the distortion is relatively low when it happens. What it sounds like you are suffering from ins normal driver thermal compression, and the distortion here is rather high. I'm a big fan of DIY, but maybe what you really need is a high efficiency speaker system? The low wattage tends to minimize thermal compression effects, and a compression driver will minimize doppler and IM distortions. Maybe the Klipsch Heresy is what you need?? |