Big, big room -- which 10-20k speakers?

Tannoy Definition DC10Ts would probably be a good match for the room; the dimensions are terrible, though, a square with height as half of the other two dimensions.

Agree with the GR Research LS-9s.

Add a couple of JL Audio subs with the extra $ and you will have it going on.

Woops...Did you make a decision?

I would second the GR Research again. The LS-9 or the Super V's are both phenomenal.

GR Research GS-9 line array. One in rosewood is just imposingly beautiful too!

So did you make Addison and if so what are your impressions?

McIntosh makes Speakers that do very well in large spaces. My dad has a pair of XRT-22's and they fill his huge great room with incredible sound.

matt

Ngjockey, I'm pretty sure you can get into a set of Classic Audio T3s, without the field coil drivers, for under 20K/pr. I thought they were about $16K.

It is the luxury of Cerwin Vega to not hear the stress of the neighbors pound on the walls and door of your apartment.

'It is THE luxury of high end audio to listen at high volumes without stress'. That's it in a nutshell and is why efficiency is indicated in this situation'

This is exactly the experience I have had with the GR Research Super V.
I was shocked that I could talk to a friend next to me and we could clearly understand each other though the volume was at about 90-95 dB.

And the Servo Bass is the best you will hear anywhere.

I'd consider powered studio monitors like those from Genelec and Equator Audio. No audiophile speaker can match bi or tri amped professional monitors for accuracy at high volumes -
Equator Audio Q15 -
Description: Powered 15” 2-way Reference Monitor
Frequency Response (+/- 3dB): 29Hz - 22 kHz
Recommended Line Level Input: 10mV-2V
Amplifier Power (LF/HF): 1000W/200W
Amplifier Peak Power (LF/HF): 2000W/400W
Sensitivity: 1w/1m output, 94dB
Max SPL (per pair): =117dB
Genelec
The Genelec 1039A is a very powerful monitor system, designed for large control rooms. It consists of a 320 litres speaker enclosure and a 7U 19" equipment rack which contains active crossovers, three channel power amplifiers and driver protection circuitry.

The speakers are designed for flush mounting in the control room wall, although they may be used free standing and can produce peak sound pressure levels in excess of 126 dB.

Audiophile speakers melt at these volume levels, as do the amps you need for them.

A little known speaker that would fill the room with great sound is the old Pro Ac Studio towers circa 1988. They were 5k new back then and you can probably get a good deal if you find a pair. The are efficient, play loud without distortion and need a large room to sound their best.

We're listening. Now, show me a C.A.R. T1 for 10 - 20 K.

Consider the Von Schweikert VR-44s or vr 35s.

You could look used and get a pair of VR-5s.

All of the above are simply stunning speakers.

I hope you guys are listening to Ralph (Atmasphere). His comments are exactly correct and can only be stated with such confidence when a person has lived with a good system in a large room. The comment about shouting is a common one with my wife and me, as the sound is so relaxed and natural. Our home is quite open from room to room in the public areas, and the Great Room spills into another 3 rooms which are again in the 30x30 range. While wandering through an adjacent room I sometimes stop in my tracks, marvelling at what sounds like live musicians playing in the Great Room, at natural levels. Yet another example of knowing when the system is 'right'. And, yes, I do attend live musical performances with sporadic regularity.

I would recommend GR Research LS-9 or Super V's. Combine either of these with four servo subs and you could easily fill that room and fill it very well.

Rtilden, Thanks for the comments.

We have done 105 quite comfortably at shows (when things were working) and not been able to manage 95 db (when they weren't).

Even though I rarely play the system that loud, I can comfortably play 115 db at home without the system getting overbearing! I did work on the front end to reduce vibration in the turntable, CDP and preamp to that end. This means that at normal levels the system is utterly without strain!

Getting a relaxed sound is the key. Especially if its relaxed at high volumes. IMO/IME a system should never sound loud. You should be surprised that you have to yell for someone sitting next to you to hear you. If OTOH the system sounds loud and shouty when you turn it up there is a problem somewhere- something that is generating odd-ordered harmonics (microphonics, resonance, cone breakups, amp clipping etc.).

Mapman quoted something on a different thread which I am paraphrasing- 'It is THE luxury of high end audio to listen at high volumes without stress'. That's it in a nutshell and is why efficiency is indicated in this situation.

OK, guys, I'm chiming in again here. One day I will try to post photos of my room. I have read many helpful replies from Atmasphere over the years, and I find it hard not to go along with most all of the things he says. And considering his exposure to so much of the possibilities available, I would tend to defer to him. Yep, he's earned his street cred. My exposure is limited, but my listening room is actually a little larger than I had posted, and my Woodmeres do an excellent job with my CODA 15.0 amplifier. How loud do you need, boys? Huh? My spl meter reads 105db or more anytime I want to crank it. But my ears tell me that is not smart. I'm in this for the long haul, and so are my ears. Classical and jazz are my main venues, and I listen as loud as is reasonably practicable, any time I like, and dammit, my room and my seating position are experiencing realistic levels of concert music, at 5-20 rows back in a concert hall, depending upon the recording. Remember, this is my home, and I live in it daily. I do not base my knowledge upon hearing a rig in some showroom one time. I am by no means saying that my results could not be improved by different or larger speakers, but I am very pleased with my system and do not wish for any "more" delivery than I am getting. The OP tasked us with a budget, and I am respecting that. This post is offered only to give some perspective to the OP, from a music lover who listens daily in a rather large room.

I can tell you that when I heard the Classic Audio Repro speakers at RMAF in a VERY big room, they could play rock at realistic levels (not earbleed, but real kick-a$$). And remember, the room size we are talking about is almost 21,000 cu ft., more than twice the volume of the 30 x 30 x 12 room that Rtilden referenced. No knock on the Tylers; I've never heard them. Agree w Atmasphere and Johnk that the laws of physics and the logarithmic power/volume relationship pretty much dictate a high efficiency design.

Further down the path after living with Tannoys, I subsequently had (2-3yrs with
each) - ProAc Response 4 - ML Prodigy - MG 20.1--drove them using FMA611/ARC
REF600 MKIII + REF3 + dCS stack.

While the MG20.1 had some beautiful natural room filling sound with great staging
(albeit slightly diffused), IME, they lacked that little lower midrange snap, and
midbass punch (dynamic) essential into waking up certain instrumentations to life
(drums, rim shots etc). Bass was big, but weighty they're not (without aid of good
subs). I then reminisced, and missed the good tonality (accuracy/beauty) of my old
Tannoys + valves. Which even with only 50 tube watts pushing, filled my rather large
old room with ease, and had amazing bass to boot which literally shook
door/windows (some serious air they moved!).

Hence, thus far, Tannoy Westminster/Royal, Classic Audio, JBL K2 (Everest - over
budget?) are the few good candidates recommended which I personally feel will slip in
just nicely into your current set-up. Of course, adding a nice little tubed amp, plus
newer source when budget permits later will easily up the ante - Still.. best try to
keep it simple, I'd say.

These would be my choice for that room in the $10K range, if available.

Get the big Maggies and a "bigger" amplifier to drive them. With your budget, you can get the new Maggie 20.7's; if you want to spend less, you can get the 20.1's. The Maggies will love all of that room to "breathe". I know this sounds self-serving, but I would consider selling my 20.1's so I can get the new 20.7's. You won't regret getting the big Maggies, just as long as you give them enough power.
George

"So if you have a speaker of higher efficiency you have a much wider range of amplifiers available! "

That may be true but you only need one and there are plenty to choose from.

There are many ways to tackle the problem effectively.

High efficiency is likley part of the solution somewhere, be it more efficient amps capable of delivering more power in a smaller more efficient package, higher efficiency speakers that require less power to sing, or perhaps even both together, or some middle ground even perhaps.

Lots of ways to skin the cat.

Tannoys and Classic Audio are certainly good contenders, but the there are many possible ways to skin this cat, including use of power subs, especially when already integrated into the speaker design by teh vendor, though adding separate subs can work very well also.

I agree with a horn speaker system or large Tannoys. Another possibility is the Jamo R909 that is moderately efficient. I know it needs a big room and would benefit with more power and current, but you probably could get by with the Luxman depending on your listening habits.

Don't need 10-20k to fill the room & sound incredible. Buy the used Legacy Whispers listed at $4k IMO

If you want to spend more, get the newer HD's

That's a nice size room. One speaker that would work well is Gold Sound Kit 14.

+1 Atmasphere..

Exact same reasons I named big Tannoys.

Avoiding complication to system, and staying within stated budget (used).

I think by this time we are seeing what some of the issues are with filling a large room. Nearly everyone who mentions a speaker with lower efficiencies is also recommending a subwoofer and quite often some very powerful amplifiers.

The problem with this is always blend, and system complexity rarely contributes to musicality.

This is why I recommended the Classic Audio Loudspeaker. Fist off, you won't need a sub. The T3 has dual 15" woofers, one down-firing and the other forward firing. With 98 db efficiency, you will be able to operate a tube amp with only 60 watts and do nicely filling the space.

The problem here is that you can count the number of 500+ watt amps on one hand (with fingers left over) that sound like anything close to real music!

So if you have a speaker of higher efficiency you have a much wider range of amplifiers available!

A few years ago we set up a system at RMAF, in the biggest room (A ballroom) available at the show. I think the room was a good 120 feet long, and at least 60 feet wide. We had no trouble filling it with power to spare using a set of Classic Audio Loudspeakers and a set of Atma-Sphere MA-1s. For the most part the amps were loafing. That is how you want the system to work. If you are pushing it hard all the time there is no way its also going to be sounding its best.

As a forty year veteran of home audio, imo large horns are the only way to achieve realistic fidelity in such a space. Add at least 3 subwoofers as the space will support real low frequencies with (probably) minimal modal issues.
JBL K2, or, better, Everest are elegant real world solutions & would work nicely w your electronics, as would large Tannoys.Ignore anything with a dome tweeter, cannot drive the space.

Alex2, Anat3 Sig @10-20k?? (even used?)

You will need a very large horn loudspeaker or line array to fill such a space. Maybe consider used or custom built in your price range.

I would die to fill that room with sound
i used to drive klipsch LaScalas with about 500 watts per side
You need lots of power to get full base responce
never had a room large enough to open them up properly
Cheap date at about $2000.for a pristine pair.Very clean accurate quality speaker if you have a cathedral to fill!!
I have a two story room 30 ft long by 16 wide that i fill nicely with a pair of kef ref series four driven with four mono blocks at 600 wats a side

Thinking along the lines of Snook2, I would seriously consider getting a full range speakers and adding 2 powered subs (for example JL113). This will be more cost effective than a speaker with large woofers, gives you far more options, more placement flexibility and you can typically EQ the subs (eihter build in or separete sub EQ box.

I used to work at a dealer that sold Revel, Wilson Audio, Avalon, Avantgarde, Joseph Audio, and Ariel. I am now a composer and recording engineer. My advice is to buy speakers that are meant to fill a large space. I would look at the Klipsch Pro Cinema speakers first. Other options are vintage Altec Lansing (or new Great Plains Audio), or a custom/DIY horn hybrid. Most audiophile/consumer speakers are terrible with a large space. You might check out ALK Engineering, Crites Speakers, or Volti Audio for semi-custom solutions. Classic Audio Loudspeakers are great if you can afford to go that way. The Luxman rep. has a pair. Good luck.

My room is 28x28x12 cathedral.
The Evolution Acoustics MM2 solved all the problems
I tried many speakers and almost gave up on bad sound until the MM2. They fill the room magically.
The biggest problem with other speaks was always the bass or the foundation of the music. I think the powered woofers are the answer.
Other speakers I have tried but never cut it:
Dunlavy IV, IVA,V
Von Schweikert VR7SE

I Also could never integrate subwoofers correctly but had plenty of bass.

Evolution Acoustics MM2 are also adjustable

I would suggest Genesis speakers. http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/

A person can find a pair of g300's for around $6000. The G200's in the $16,000 range. The reference loudspeaker (for which All speakers are judged); the Reference 1.2's occasionally surface on the used market in th mid to low $100,000 range---- The sound of these will make a grown man cry from pure bliss. Yes, after owning these; I can now die a peaceful man.

Greetings from the MinneApple from an old ALTEC PRO rep!

My opinion is commercial tri-amped line arrays, designed for the room by an experienced sound contractor. You will be unhappy with "home" speakers at anything above background levels. Consider that all distortion products increase exponentially with cone excursion, while gain compression becomes a major obstacle when individual drivers are working past 10% of their rated power.

I use line arrays of common Klipsch speakers, floor to ceiling, wired in parallel for mutual damping, driven by a trusty old Adcom GFA-555 that loves 2.4 ohm loads. Even at 115 dB @ 10 feet, nothing is approaching clipping except your ears. To keep up the low end I use 6 powered subs in 4 locations to eliminate standing waves.

Get some bids from local sound contractors, study the Lansing Heritage website, and start with these resources from Chris Moon at HigherFi.com:

http://www.higherfi.com/amppower/index.html

http://www.higherfi.com/speaker_position.htm

Cheers and Happy Listening!

a pair of altec nineteens would perform wonderfully in that large open space

a pair of altec nineteens would perform wonderfully in that large open space

While I in no way consider myself in the same class of expertise as some of the respondents, I would suggest a look at Legacy Audio. Legacy is not as exotic as most of the suggestions here; But I heard the newest version of the Whispers at CES 2 years ago. The only speaker I liked better was the Anat Studio II, which is exponentially more expensive. I have a similar size room. I use two Legacy Focus and the sound really is unbelievable. I have a bit more power available in my amp which may help; But the New Whispers come with built in dual 500 watt Amps powering four 15 inch drivers each side. The extra power and piston area will surely go along way toward filling a large room. They are also very efficient. Have fun designing!
http://www.legacyaudio.com/products/view/whisper-xd/

There are so many choices to make, but only you know the kind of sound you are looking for. My room is essentially 20 X 30 X 25 high. My main speakers Coincident Pure Reference I bought used, two years old. My mono amps are PassLabs XA100.5's. They each drive 100 watts in pure class 'A' sound. Coincident speakers can be driven by as little as 25 watts or 500 watts, your choice. Right now I can drive well over 106 SPL at 10 feet. In my own humble opinion it is more about the sound you want and enjoy than an absolute number of power watts. All speakers are different at different levels of sound. Take time! By the way I also have two SVS Ultra13 subs that are blended in and helps create my own masterpiece. I had a friend down from Michigan to spend a few hours listening. He was astounded! And I had sold him previously, my Legacy Focus, which he loves.
Coincident speakers are built to hold an average 6 to 8 ohms across the frequency band to make selecting a power amp easier. These large speakers, weigh over 200 pounds and are reasonably priced used at around 10K versus 22K new.
The other choice to consider would be the BE-20 at roughly the same price. The sound is a little fuller. Usher BE-20 is their top of the line.
Either way you can't go wrong.
Choices choices nothing but choices.
Good luck and happy hunting!
Rich

I am envious of your room dimensions, especially the ceilings. Way to go!
A sub/sat system might surprise you...utilizing two identical subs of good quality.
But for stereo, I recommend Legacy Signature II's or better. I have the Sig IIs and they are indeed full range speakers in my room. Although, being so large, I would consider a speaker more suited for my smallish, cube-like listening room. With treated walls, my Sig II's are almost too much. Sub-wise: in black, I would consider selling my pair of Sunfire Professionals. They were the largest of that line of Sunfire sub-woofers, driver-wise as well as "Carver watts" power output. tmon41@hotmail.com for any continued communication.
Whatever you do, take advantage of your wonderful listening area by purchasing speakers that are large enough to take FULL advantage of such a "space filled" area for acoustic reproduction. If you use subs, get them in exact matching pairs, and take home two. Do not let that glorious listening space be ignored.
Good luck and enjoy the search.

Truthfully Envious, tonehead

Rr999,

We have an essentially open first floor in our home. The kitchen, entry, dining room and back area are all open. Some walls are as far apart as over 50 feet and some of the ceiling space is over 15 feet high.

Having said that, we've owned Wilson speakers, including the Alexandria X-2's mated with a pair of Watchdog subwoofers.

But nothing filled our space with as much quality sound as our Anat III Signature Professionals. The powered sub could pressurize our very large space without any additional subs and the quality of the bass was more satisfying than the X-2's as well.

If you haven't heard a pair of Anats, please do. You won't be disappointed . . . either with the audition (assuming the setup has been done properly, of course) or with hearing them in your large room.

Those speakers are nothing short of my remarkable, and I've heard (and owned) my fair share of competitors.

Joel

Well, I'm a bit late responding, but, since no one has mentioned them yet, here goes.

With your stated tastes, you actually won't need super-efficient horns, etc., to listen to lifelike levels of music, IMHO. My only caveat is that I have been to some rock concerts where the sound was so loud I had ringing in my ears after the concert...I'm presuming you aren't seeking that level of sound pressure!

First, as noted above by Bvdiman, your Luxman is 'only' rated at 120 WPC for 8 ohms. However, the 509u's 240 WPC rating for 4 ohms is normally a good indicator of an amplifier design that does have the ability to deliver enough current to properly drive most speakers.

I believe you really owe yourself a trip to audition the Magnepan 20.7 speakers. Magnepans (when properly placed) will fill a large room with the most lifelike music I've ever encountered. Dating back to their beginnings, when the Magnepan Tympani was declared their new reference speaker when reviewed in The Absolute Sound, Magnepan has repeatedly raised the bar vis-a-vis lifelike musical reproduction.

When paired with a superior subwoofer that can accurately produce the bottom half of the bottom octave of music (I presently use an M&K, and would suggest you consider the M&K MX5000 with the upper filter set to coincide with the 3db rolloff point of your main speakers) I've found that friends who have invested a LOT more than I have marvel at the natural musicality of my Magnepans.

Yes, I know they aren't the most efficient speaker ever manufactured. Yes, they do require placement away from a back wall to produce the best sound (one reason they sound so good in a larger room?). No, they don't have some magical unicorn horn dust sprinkled on the unobtanium drivers or the snob appeal of some unique designs. What they do so well is allow you to close your eyes and 'be there' with a recreation of the recorded performance that can be stunning.

I wish you good fortune with your quest!

I don't see the problem with a big room. In fact, the big room minimizes of a lot of potential problems that are the bane of smaller rooms such as early reflections, standing waves, inability to get the speakers away from room boundaries, etc.

If the intent is to fill the entire room with live sound levels, then not only are the speakers named not going to do the job, as has been pointed out, the amp isn't going to do the job either. To really pump out the SPLs without spending a small fortune on one or two super-amps, horns are about the only solution. That's just physics.

I've lived with a set of Edgarhorns for almost ten years, and while there is a lot to like about their efficiency, their uncanny dynamic jump, and their ability to play really loudly with just fractions of a watt, they are not the speaker for everyone. And, they can be hard to find used (and I don't know if they are available new anymore, though I just retired mine and would consider sending them to a good home. . .).

If however, you can live with sitting 10-15 feet from the speakers in the sweet spot for serious listening, and will be satisfied with less than live levels elsewhere in the room while other activities are going on, then just about any reasonably efficient speakers will do the job.

I'm currently using KEF 207/2s and with their 91db/w/m efficiency they do a very good job playing at levels as loud as I would ever listen within 10-15 feet. Even new they come in right around $20K.

If sufficient bass becomes a problem, there are any number of good self-powered subwoofers on the market. A stereo pair, positioned to make some use of boundary reinforcement would likely solve that problem, if it actually is a problem.

As far as room treatments -- go slow and do your homework first. Check out some of the websites (RealTraps, GIK Acoustics, ATS Acoustics), get some tools such as StudioSixDigital's AudioTools for iPhone or Android, and take some measurments. You might just find that your problems with the room are really minor.

Good luck!

Tyler Acoustics are one line I have never heard that I would like to hear. I have seen several models that look well suited for a large room.

Another vote for Tyler Acoustics. After buying and selling a few different pairs of speakers and not quite feeling satisfied, I picked up a used pair direct from Tyler Acoustics. I'm blown away, it's like I'm sitting *inside* the music. I'll be keeping these for a long time.

Fact is most any good speaker can sound good in a large room. The determining factor will be how much volume and bass is expected.

Almarg makes good sense as usual :)

The larger Tannoys are another good possibility.

Man, I'd love a huge room. As an earlier poster suggested, you should try
to take advantage of the benefits. I don't like overdamped, dead sounding
rooms. And the fact that the ceiling is that high may help if you could
suspend some appropriate diffusion- almost like open wood frame 'cells' in
a matrix (think honeycomb, just not necessary that shape of cell) or slats.
The
same width/length may be problematic, but that could be rectified by
erecting something that functions as a freestanding partial wall behind you,
perhaps even partly used as vinyl or media storage if you were inclined. Or
flip the set up around, so that fake 'back' wall and the front wall are the
sides. See below re the glass windows issue, which could then be the front
and back walls if properly treated. In effect, you could create an acoustic
environment within the larger room.
There are good people who know acoustics, know how to measure, but I'd
be reluctant to let someone loose on heavily treating that room until you
know what you have and how to take best advantage of it. What are the
walls, ceilings and floors made of? You'll obviously have to deal with all the
glass, but the right window treatment (and perhaps not even 'acoustically
endorsed' but along the lines of those heavy curtains used in theatres)
could work. Too bad there's no way to show us a picture or three, unless
you set up a system page and post the pics there. I'd love to see the room.
I'm not going to advocate any particular equipment to you. The best
sounding room i had so far, not nearly as large, was in an old brownstone,
very high ceilings, real heavy plaster walls, very wide old plank flooring.
The room sounded marvelous on its own with minimal treatment.

the trios will fill your space with ease but they are beyond the budget mentioned. Depending on required volume levels you can add subs. the new 231 subs ( 2 x 12" driver per side) sound very good and I guess you would at least need 2 subs her side. this is all way beyond the mention budget but would be close to perfect to fill that huge room.